The case against Social Security.

[Andrew77]

...and that course would be?

We are right now, doing exactly what Greece did. In the 1990s, people warned Greece over and over that they can't keep funding their pension system. They warned that taxes were too high, and people wouldn't pay them. They warned eventually their debts would get too high.

Everything they warned about for decades before, came to be. Everything.

The pension system crashed. The government when bankrupt. The government funded health care system crashed. The public transport system crashed. Over half a million people fled the country. The city was engulfed in smog, because no one could pay for natural gas, and were burning wood.

You follow the same path, and you will have the same result.

 

[DaisyDay]

Somewhat like being only partially pregnant?

Not a bit, unless you can have someone else carry 2% of your child to term.

No, its a misuse of the term, in this case intentionally so.

How so? If the 2% is being invested privately with commercial money handlers, taken out of the government system, then that is privatization. Please explain how it is not rather than simply insisting.

 

[DaisyDay]

That's the problem. Stealing people's money is inherently evil. It's just flat out wrong, and evil.

Oh, that again. Taxes are not stealing; it's the price we pay to live in a civilized society. Even Christ said to pay your taxes (and to the rich man to give it away, but that's another story).

 

[Andrew77]

Or the market crashed before they could get it done. I just hope that America remembers this time around when presented with these arguments again: "Democrats think you are too dumb to manage your own money", "Nanny-state!".

That is privatizing if only partial. All that does is take money out of the SS system and put it into the hands of private, commercial, profit-driven money managers. There is nothing preventing people from putting 2% of their own money into retirement accounts now. Why remove the contributions from SS?

Donald signed an EO which could rollback "the so-called fiduciary rule, which is slated to go into effect in [last] April and will likely now be delayed, requires advisers to put their clients' interests ahead of theirs." (Source) He wants you to put your retirement nest egg into the hands of people who do NOT have to put your interests above their own interest in generating fees for themselves because investors should have access to all advice, even bad, harmful advice contrary to their interests, evidently. So far, the Dept. of Labor has declined to follow through.

Which worked.

Again go look at the Galveston Texas trial system. In the 1980s, the government allowed the people of Galveston Texas, to put their entire social security tax, into a private system.

Not only did the system work, but the private retirement fund provided a return on investment that was more than double that of social security.

This is well documented.

How Three Texas Counties Created Personal Social Security Accounts and Prospered

In fact, not only did it provide almost 3 times the payout of Social Security, but it actually was a lower tax.

The Social Security tax there, was only 9.7% of wages, instead of 12.4%.

So people ended up with more money in retirement, while paying lower taxes into the system.

There is nothing preventing people from putting 2% of their own money into retirement accounts now. Why remove the contributions from SS?

It's funny ow you decry "Democrats think you are too dumb to manage your own money", "Nanny-state!".

And then turn right around, and ask why anyone should be allowed to choose where their money goes.

Maybe because.... we're supposed to be a land of free people who are not coerced into paying for something we don't believe in?

Social Security sucks. At the very best.... absolute best... it's system that takes money from people, and then leaves them poor until they die.

A person putting $100 into private retirement for life, while earning minimum wage, would end up a millionaire or close.

That same person on minimum wage, is putting $155 into social security, and will end up living on $900 a month at retirement until they die.

Your system, is slavery and hell. That's why they should be allowed to determine where to THEY should be able to put THEIR... money into. It's my money. I earned it. Not you. I should be able to determine where my money goes to. Not you.

 

[Andrew77]

Oh, that again. Taxes are not stealing; it's the price we pay to live in a civilized society. Even Christ said to pay your taxes (and to the rich man to give it away, but that's another story).

Taxes are stealing. Yes, I agree that I follow the law.

That doesn't mean the law is right. Jesus also said you should carry the packs of Roman soldiers. That doesn't mean it's right. It means that's what a Christian does.

The Romans slaughtered people. Fed them to Lions. Put people in tar and pitch, and lit them on fire. He still said to obey the Romans. That's doesn't mean the Romans were good.

Taxes is stealing.

If I come and demand your money from you, while putting a gun to your head... that's stealing.
If I vote for someone who sends police to confiscate your money from you, and give it to me.... that's still stealing.

One just is oddly acceptable to a minority in our country that thinks anything we vote for is automatically justified and morally right. No it is not.

And no it's not a price we pay to live in a civilized society.

If we only paid taxes to cover then price to live in a civilized society, taxes would be about 1/3rd of what they are now. The cost of roads, sewers, police, fire, bridges and national defense, is a tiny fraction of the total costs we pay in taxes. Most of it goes to socialism, which is destroying our society.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Again, go back to the book I mentioned before.

The High Cost of Good Intentions: A History of U.S. Federal Entitlement Programs

There is no SSTF. There never was. There has never been surplus. Social Security Tax, is simply an income tax, like any other income tax.

All the money goes to the same place.

View attachment 221491

All those taxes go to the same goverenment account. The medicare tax does not go to medicare. It goes to the federal government accounts. The social security tax, does not go to the social security trust fund. There is no trust fund. It goes to the same account with all the rest of the income taxes.

There is no trust fund. All the money goes to the Federal government and is spent.

And listen.... THERE NEVER WAS. Social Security has operated the same way since it was created in the 1930s.

They are not 'drawing down' the SSTF, because there is no trust fund. There are no assets. There are no Treasury Bonds. There are no assets to "draw down". Never were. Never will be. All money is collected and spent. Period. Always been that way, since the 1930s.

Yes, there are "IOU"s. Which literally means bits of paper that say "IOU" on them. Literally. They are not real bonds. Not real assets. They are literally papers that say the government, owes the government, money.

Now when the government is borrowing money year over year, what real value do IOUs have? None. The government has no ability to pay itself money. The only value they have is on the ability of the government to borrow.

Why do you think Obama said that if the government didn't increase the debt limit, that Social Security would be cut? Because the "Social Security Trust Fund" has zero money. There is no Trust fund. It is a ponzi scheme. The only money the "trust fund" has, is money it borrows or steals from working people. There is no assets. It's all a ponzi scheme.

And it ALWAYS WAS. That's how the system has operated since the 1930s.

That's true of the entire economy. All bonds, notes, bills, stocks, bank balances, etc. are just glorified IOU's printed on fancy paper. It's the confidence in these instruments and institutions that hold the thing together. SS in no different except the government can borrow to repay it, or print new money to repay it. That makes it pretty safe. What you are missing is the accounting. When collections are 'credited' to SS they are legitimately owed to SS, and they will be paid to SS. It doesn't matter what kind of paper the accounting is recorded on. It's valid, sound, and safe.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Taxes are stealing.............. Most of it goes to socialism, which is destroying our society.

Taxes are a social contract, not theft. Taxes are spent on social programs that benefit everyone, they are not socialism. Americans are destroying themselves. That is what causes high taxation, not the other way around.

 

[Andrew77]

That's true of the entire economy. All bonds, notes, bills, stocks, bank balances, etc. are just glorified IOU's printed on fancy paper. It's the confidence in these instruments and institutions that hold the thing together. SS in no different except the government can borrow to repay it, or print new money to repay it. That makes it pretty safe. What you are missing is the accounting. When collections are 'credited' to SS they are legitimately owed to SS, and they will be paid to SS. It doesn't matter what kind of paper the accounting is recorded on. It's valid, sound, and safe.

No, that's wrong.

You are talking about official currency, or an official stock, or an official bank note.

I understand that you are talking about how they are basically all an IOU.

The difference is, all of those IOUs, because they are in fact official legal tend, they have value on the open market. If I own stock in a company, and the company refuses to honor that stock, I can sue them in court. I have legal grounds, because it is a legally binding document.

None of this is true of the "social security trust fund". None of it. The "Treasury Bonds" that are in the social security trust fund, are not real. They are not marketable. They are not official.

If you broke into the Social Security Trust Fund, and stole all the bonds in the fund, you would have nothing.

You can't sell them. They have no value. They have no worth. You can't trade them. You can't auction them. You can't collect on them. If you sued the Federal Government on the basis of those bonds, you would have no case. They have zero value. They have zero legal status. They are literally.... worthless.

Literally.... zero value at all.

Again, that's why buying a mutual fund is entirely different. If my mutual funds refuse to pay out when I want them to, I can take the shares I own, go to court, and legally force them to make good on those shares.

You... if you broke into the Social Security "trust fund", and got the bonds there, you can't do anything. You are entitled to nothing. You only get paid, if the rest of the tax payers agree to pay you. And the moment the voters of this country decide they don't want to pay, you are simply out of luck. Greece man....

Greek pensioner who relied on government left with nothing.

And by the way, don't think that our ability to print money will fix anything.

For Venezuelan seniors, the ‘golden years’ mean picking through garbage for food

All socialism eventually runs out of other people's money. You start printing cash, and you end up with Venezuela.

 

[Andrew77]

Taxes are a social contract, not theft. Taxes are spent on social programs that benefit everyone, they are not socialism. Americans are destroying themselves. That is what causes high taxation, not the other way around.

No, that's wrong as well. There is only one social contract. The constitution of the United States.

Nowhere in that constitution does it give power to the Federal Government to provide for Social Security. It is not an enumerated power of the Federal Government.

And it does not benefit everyone. I have not gotten one benefit from this government yet, from their social programs.

Americans are destroying themselves, because they are relying on Government to be their savior. Being foolish enough to rely on social security for your retirement, is a perfect example. Good for politicians, terrible for the elderly.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, that's wrong.

You are talking about official currency, or an official stock, or an official bank note.

I understand that you are talking about how they are basically all an IOU.

The difference is, all of those IOUs, because they are in fact official legal tend, they have value on the open market. If I own stock in a company, and the company refuses to honor that stock, I can sue them in court. I have legal grounds, because it is a legally binding document.

None of this is true of the "social security trust fund". None of it. The "Treasury Bonds" that are in the social security trust fund, are not real. They are not marketable. They are not official.

If you broke into the Social Security Trust Fund, and stole all the bonds in the fund, you would have nothing.

You can't sell them. They have no value. They have no worth. You can't trade them. You can't auction them. You can't collect on them. If you sued the Federal Government on the basis of those bonds, you would have no case. They have zero value. They have zero legal status. They are literally.... worthless.

Literally.... zero value at all.

Again, that's why buying a mutual fund is entirely different. If my mutual funds refuse to pay out when I want them to, I can take the shares I own, go to court, and legally force them to make good on those shares.

You... if you broke into the Social Security "trust fund", and got the bonds there, you can't do anything. You are entitled to nothing. You only get paid, if the rest of the tax payers agree to pay you. And the moment the voters of this country decide they don't want to pay, you are simply out of luck. Greece man....

View attachment 221497

Greek pensioner who relied on government left with nothing.

And by the way, don't think that our ability to print money will fix anything.

For Venezuelan seniors, the ‘golden years’ mean picking through garbage for food

All socialism eventually runs out of other people's money. You start printing cash, and you end up with Venezuela.

All that is needed in the SS Trust Fund is a simple IOU. The debt cannot be publically traded (and possibly lost), that's why it's secure, i.e. "lock box". No fancy paper needed.

I borrowed $20,000 from my boss once on a handshake. My handshake is as good as any written contact or fancy printed bond. The government has the same 'handshake' in the "full faith and credit" agreement that is applied to all legal government debt. America has never defaulted on a debt and I don't expect that it will anytime soon.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Americans are destroying themselves, because they are relying on Government to be their savior. Being foolish enough to rely on social security for your retirement, is a perfect example. Good for politicians, terrible for the elderly.

It has worked quite well so far, and I expect it will continue to do so. I have been collecting SS for 15 years now. I have yet to spend any of it as I have saved it and it is earning interest.

When I do formally retire I will have a good amount of SS benefits piled up and I can enjoy the retirement that I plan on becoming accustomed to.

 

[Andrew77]

All that is needed in the SS Trust Fund is a simple IOU. The debt cannot be publically traded (and possibly lost), that's why it's secure, i.e. "lock box". No fancy paper needed.

I borrowed $20,000 from my boss once on a handshake. My handshake is as good as any written contact or fancy printed bond. The government has the same 'handshake' in the "full faith and credit" agreement that is applied to all legal government debt. America has never defaulted on a debt and I don't expect that it will anytime soon.

Yeah, well you didn't shake anyone's hand at the government, and if you think they would honor a hand shake anyway, then you are not thinking wisely.

If push comes to shove, they'll dump you in a moment. If they have to choose between destruction of the country, or your pension, they'll toss your pension in a heartbeat. Again, there are dozens of examples of this around the world.

And lastly you are completely wrong about that fancy paper.

If there actually was a trust fund with real treasury bonds in them, then when the government is incapable of paying it's bills, the Social Security Administration could simply sell the marketable Treasury bonds on the open market. They could at least pay out social security from the treasury bonds.

But that isn't how it is. There are no bonds. Not real ones. Just bits of paper.

If the government can't pay it's bills, like back in 2011... and was running a real risk of going broke.... there is nothing that Social Security Administration can do, because there is no trust fund.

If the government doesn't have the money, there are no assets in Social Security to pay your checks with. And you want to tell me that is a better than having real assets?

You are not speaking with wisdom.

 

[Andrew77]

It has worked quite well so far, and I expect it will continue to do so. I have been collecting SS for 15 years now. I have yet to spend any of it as I have saved it and it is earning interest.

When I do formally retire I will have a good amount of SS benefits piled up and I can enjoy the retirement that I plan on becoming accustomed to.

Yeah, the Greeks said the same thing. It all works great, until the money runs out, and the entire country is ruined.

Same thing withe Venezuela. It all works great, until the country is in total collapse.

The bible warns against the arrogance of nations. The more you talk this way, the more danger this nation is in.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yeah, well you didn't shake anyone's hand at the government, and if you think they would honor a hand shake anyway, then you are not thinking wisely.

If push comes to shove, they'll dump you in a moment. If they have to choose between destruction of the country, or your pension, they'll toss your pension in a heartbeat. Again, there are dozens of examples of this around the world.

And lastly you are completely wrong about that fancy paper.

If there actually was a trust fund with real treasury bonds in them, then when the government is incapable of paying it's bills, the Social Security Administration could simply sell the marketable Treasury bonds on the open market. They could at least pay out social security from the treasury bonds.

But that isn't how it is. There are no bonds. Not real ones. Just bits of paper.

If the government can't pay it's bills, like back in 2011... and was running a real risk of going broke.... there is nothing that Social Security Administration can do, because there is no trust fund.

If the government doesn't have the money, there are no assets in Social Security to pay your checks with. And you want to tell me that is a better than having real assets?

You are not speaking with wisdom.

The money will fail eventually, but it hasn't yet. The economy is sustained by the confidence of the citizens in the system. As of this moment I still have confidence in it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The bible warns against the arrogance of nations. The more you talk this way, the more danger this nation is in.

America actually needs more people like me.

 

[Andrew77]

The money will fail eventually, but it hasn't yet. The economy is sustained by the confidence of the citizens in the system. As of this moment I still have confidence in it.

Are you suggesting that the only reason the Greek system failed, was because magically all the Greeks suddenly didn't have confidence? Or Venezuela suddenly didn't have confidence?

No, neither are true. Particularly with Venezuela, where people had protests in support of the system that was failing, while it was failing.

What sustains an economy, or the value of money, is not confidence of the citizens. If that was the case, no system would ever fail.

What causes any system to fail, is mathematical facts. Facts don't care if you have confidence in the system or not.

In Greece, the government simply did not have the money to pay for the costs of their bloated social system. Didn't matter that the Greeks had confidence in the system, or not.

Similarly in Venezuela, it didn't matter if the people had faith in the money of Venezuela, or the governments ability to back that money, or not. The value of the money dropped because of math.

Venezuela Is Living a Hyperinflation Nightmare

Your ability to have confidence doesn't make the slightest difference. Nor the confidence of your neighbors, or fellow citizens.

If the government continues to over spend, and the debt becomes too much to pay off, nothing you have faith in, or confidence in, or believe in, or your IOUs will make any difference.

You will not get paid.

And saying that the money system will fail anyway, so we might as well roll with it.... is equal to saying we're all going to die, so why should I stop using heroin?

You are not speaking wisely.

The money system does not have to fail. We can choose to be smart, and stop blowing money on a doomed pension system. We can start to be fiscally smart, instead of fiscally suicidal, and not commit suicide.

We have the ability to move off the path of doom that Greece and Venezuela followed. But it involves people who are willing to stop making excuses, and foolish statements, who want to accept the facts, instead of ignoring them over political and ideological conveniences, and change to a better system.

 

[Andrew77]

America actually needs more people like me.

Not according to the Bible. I'll take Godly wisdom over foolish arrogance any day. Don't think G-d will continue to bless this land, if the land is polluted with an attitude of arrogance.

 

[Albion]

First off, there is no guaranteed return.
Flemming v. Nestor - Wikipedia

In a sense that is correct. And there is no assurance that the sun will rise tomorrow.

But there is a return that is specified and has always been paid. That is different from other taxes.

By the way, this is why real retirement programs are entirely different. I have a legal right to the shares I own.

And they aren't guaranteed either. Just ask the former employees of many corporations that have gone bankrupt or otherwise failed to pay the pensions that had been negotiated. Sure, the employees can sue--as you said--and get 15 cents on the dollar or something like that. This is not what I would call a guaranteed return.

 

[FireDragon76]

Social Security is a trust fund.

 

[Albion]

Not a bit, unless you can have someone else carry 2% of your child to term.
How so? If the 2% is being invested privately with commercial money handlers, taken out of the government system, then that is privatization. Please explain how it is not rather than simply insisting.

What I meant is that the term contradicts itself, just like calling 2% a "privatization" of the system.