The Case Against "Christian Universalism"

Michie said:

God shows mercy to everyone. He died for all. But not accept the gift. Scripture is full of these warnings. Not sure what so hard to understand here.

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I seriously doubt many would fully knowingly choose to reject the free gift of salvation in favor of eternal conscious torment.

Probably most don't accept it simply because they don't believe in it, the same as you and I don't believe in Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness or Christian Science or Judaism or Islam.

Michie said:

My understanding is there are no excuses and lies during judgement For the person being judged by their Maker. I prefer to read Scripture in its context along with the thinking and writings of the early Church. I know what the infallible teachings are along with theological exercises and thought. Jesus was quite clear in how dire the situation is. I think I will stick with that.

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The writings of the early Church favored Apocatastasis (universalism) especially via Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Gregory of Nyssa (the "Father of Fathers"). It wasn't until the 6th century Second Council of Constantinople that universalism was declared a heresy.

However if you want to stay firm on what the current official RCC position is on it, which is perfectly acceptable, there's absolutely nothing to discuss. Because if that's the case, then for you the buck stops there. No need to appeal to outside sources of authority or present any other argument.

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Indeed. The people most likely to "not make it" are those born into Christian families. As it is written, the children of the kingdom shall be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The issue with expounding on a damnationist message, is that the way you judge, you too will be judged in the same way that you have judged. And as believers, everyone falls into the highest risk category ... just read the gospels.

Michael Collum said:

Indeed. The people most likely to "not make it" are those born into Christian families. As it is written, the children of the kingdom shall be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The issue with expounding on a damnationist message, is that the way you judge, you too will be judged in the same way that you have judged. And as believers, everyone falls into the highest risk category ... just read the gospels.

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I think "the children of the kingdom shall be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth", was about what happened to Israel within a generation of Jesus saying that. When it comes to passages like that, I weigh out whether or not it could be a national judgement of Jerusalem's impending doom via fire, destruction, and a great deal of bloodshed, followed by the survivors being cast out and displaced.

MMXX said:

I seriously doubt many would fully knowingly choose to reject the free gift of salvation in favor of eternal conscious torment.

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Yes.

There is no such thing as perfect freedom in this life, or perfect understanding, and it is sheer nonsense to suggest that we possess limitless or unqualified liberty. Therefore we are incapable of contracting a limitless or unqualified guilt.

Absolute culpability—eternal culpability—lies forever beyond the capacities of any finite being. So does an eternal free defiance of the Good.

From the perspective of Christian belief, the very notion of a punishment that is not intended ultimately to be remedial is morally dubious (and, I submit, anyone who doubts this has never understood Christian teaching at all); but, even if one believes that Christianity makes room for the condign imposition of purely retributive punishments, it remains the case that a retribution consisting in unending suffering, imposed as recompense for the actions of a finite intellect and will, must be by any sound definition disproportionate, unjust, and at the last nothing more than an expression of sheer pointless cruelty.

Hart, David Bentley. That All Shall Be Saved (p. 44). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

Consider, for instance, the emperor Domitian, who according to the Roman historian Suetonius once invited one of his stewards to dine with him in his private apartments - to recline in his presence, to eat from his dishes, to share in delicacies normally reserved for only the most powerful man in the world and his cherished intimates. It was the highest honor the steward had ever received or could ever have hoped for; it was certainly nothing he would ever have imagined he had any right to expect. The next day, Domitian ordered that the steward be crucified. Now that is impressive, one has to say. It was as grand a demonstration of absolute sovereignty as one could ever imagine, and perfect proof of how immeasurably far above the level of the ordinary categories of good and evil such sovereignty operates. It showed with utter clarity that the gifts imparted by absolute power are entirely gracious, and that those upon whom they are bestowed have no right to presume them; and it proved just as emphatically that such power is, for this very reason, bound to no common measure of justice or mercy, and so properly reveals itself in the sheer capriciousness of its malice no less than in the lavishness of its largesse. It is an old adage of certain streams of Reformed thought that God could have created us all for everlasting torment if he had so wished, and it would have been perfectly just for him to do so simply because it lay in his power. To me, this seems like the most decadent theology imaginable, and certainly blasphemous through and through. But I do not hold Calvin himself necessarily accountable for this, since in this matter he was the product of centuries of bad scriptural interpretation and even worse theological reasoning; he differed little from many of his contemporaries, Protestant and Catholic alike, except that (as I have said) his thinking exhibited a greater consistency than anyone else’s. Nevertheless, to me the God of Calvinism at its worst (as in those notorious lines in Book III of the Institutes) is simply Domitian made omnipotent. If that were Christianity, it would be too psychologically diseased a creed to take seriously at all, and its adherents would deserve only a somewhat acerbic pity, not respect. If this is one’s religion, then one is simply a diabolist who has gotten the names in the story confused. It is a vision of the faith whose scriptural and philosophical flaws are numerous and crucial, undoubtedly; but those pale in comparison to its far more disturbing moral hideousness. This aspect of orthodox Calvinism is for me unsurpassable evidence for my earlier claim that a mind conditioned to believe that it must believe something incredible is capable of convincing itself to accept just about anything, no matter how repellant to reason (or even good taste).

Hart, David Bentley. That All Shall Be Saved (pp. 50-51). Yale University Press. Kindle Edition.

MMXX said:

I think "the children of the kingdom shall be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth", was about what happened to Israel within a generation of Jesus saying that. When it comes to passages like that, I weigh out whether or not it could be a national judgement of Jerusalem's impending doom via fire, destruction, and a great deal of bloodshed, followed by the survivors being cast out and displaced.

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Many such theologies pop up in churches, the pastors need to keep their salaries after all.

MMXX said:

But that goes back to reformation21.org who wrote The Case Against "Christian Universalism". Obviously with a name like reformation.org, they don't consider all of the teachings of the Church to be infallible.
Their TGC Confessional Statement Section 13 stipulates they believe in "eternal conscious punishment in hell". Whereas many Christians, including Catholics, who aren't universalists, do not believe in eternal conscious punishment in hell. And even among those who do believe in it, there are several different beliefs as to what kind of punishment is involved.
Even among Christian Universalists, based on scripture and translation of Koine Greek, there are differing beliefs as to what kind of punishment is involved. Plus while they say it's not eternal but for an age, how long is an age? Is an age so long that it's practically an eternity?

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There is a fatal flaw in this reasoning which UR-ites absolutely refuse to acknowledge. The Greek word "aionios," correctly translated "eternal/everlasting" 70+ times in the N.T., is an adjective. The word "age" is a noun. An adjective can NEVER be translated as a noun, <period> end of statement.
No amount of scripture twisting can turn a Greek adjective into an English noun.

MMXX said:

The writings of the early Church favored Apocatastasis (universalism) especially via Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Gregory of Nyssa (the "Father of Fathers"). It wasn't until the 6th century Second Council of Constantinople that universalism was declared a heresy.

However if you want to stay firm on what the current official RCC position is on it, which is perfectly acceptable, there's absolutely nothing to discuss. Because if that's the case, then for you the buck stops there. No need to appeal to outside sources of authority or present any other argument.

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Meaningless generalizations without specific quotes. And unless they are quoting and exegeting scripture the scribblings of the ECF or any other group are equally meaningless.

MMXX said:

I think "the children of the kingdom shall be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth", was about what happened to Israel within a generation of Jesus saying that. When it comes to passages like that, I weigh out whether or not it could be a national judgement of Jerusalem's impending doom via fire, destruction, and a great deal of bloodshed, followed by the survivors being cast out and displaced.

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Only if you ignore the vss. which say cast into a furnace of fire where there will wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Michael Collum said:

Many such theologies pop up in churches, the pastors need to keep their salaries after all.

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That was deductive reasoning on my part, and I haven't made a cent off it. I think the big money is to be had in claiming that most prophecy is about 20th 21st century Christians.

MMXX said:

That was deductive reasoning on my part, and I haven't made a cent off it. I think the big money is to be had in claiming that most prophecy is about 20th 21st century Christians.

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So are you a universalist then? A lot of universalists make a comparison of gehenna as a fiery garbage dump, vs now where it is a peaceful valley. Your deduction about Jerusalem seemed to resonate with that.

Michael Collum said:

So are you a universalist then?

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No. I'm only willing to consider it as a possibility. I'm in the 'I don't know for sure' camp when it comes to future events.

Michael Collum said:

A lot of universalists make a comparison of gehenna as a fiery garbage dump, vs now where it is a peaceful valley. Your deduction about Jerusalem seemed to resonate with that.

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I suppose it is along that line of reasoning. But again, I consider that line of interpretation worth considering, rather than thinking or saying that it's absolutely correct.

Der Alte said:

Only if you ignore the vss. which say cast into a furnace of fire where there will wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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Below is a depiction of Rome destroying Jerusalem. Looks like a furnace to me. I can imagine there being a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over it. That doesn't mean it's absolutely certain that's what some of those verses are about. But I think it's possible.

The Gospel Coalition are all committed to Calvinist fundamentalism as their doctrine, they barely try to hide it.

Among the general population of Christians in the US, inclusivism is the norm, not the exception. It's also the norm among American Catholics.

Christians should be working to make this world less of a Hell, not damning other people just because they don't get on board with their religious agenda.

MMXX said:

Below is a depiction of Rome destroying Jerusalem. Looks like a furnace to me. I can imagine there being a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over it. That doesn't mean it's absolutely certain that's what some of those verses are about. But I think it's possible.

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I suppose the vss. could be twisted to mean something like that but that ain't what the vss. actually say.

Matthew 13:41-42
(41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
(42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:49-50
(49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
(50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

MMXX said:

No. I'm only willing to consider it as a possibility. I'm in the 'I don't know for sure' camp when it comes to future events.

I suppose it is along that line of reasoning. But again, I consider that line of interpretation worth considering, rather than thinking or saying that it's absolutely correct.

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I'm in the "willing to consider" group of theologians also.

Since God does more than we can imagine or think ... I'm ready to be surprised.

Der Alte said:

I suppose the vss. could be twisted to mean something like that but that ain't what the vss. actually say.

Matthew 13:41-42​

(41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;​

(42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Matthew 13:49-50​

(49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,​

(50) And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

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Still looks like it could be final prophetic judgement against Israel.