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The burden of proof fallacy?

Paradoxum

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Same with your senses. Same with other minds. Same with your memory.

If we don't know if the universe was caused by a God, or gods, or magic force, or dream, or natural state, clearly you aren't justified in just deciding to choose one without reason. You either have to figure it out, attempt an educated guess based on the evidence, or say you don't know. Either way you are never totally sure.

Perhaps it is wrong to talk about anything as basic beliefs. We think there are other minds because we have a mind, they are formed and act like us, and we know we would like to them (if they had a mind) like how they look to us. So it is reasonable to think other people have minds.

In the case of memory, maybe the universe appeared like this a few seconds ago, but it would seem more reasonable to think the universe began at a beginning rather than part way through.

Maybe our senses are wrong, but it's almost necessary that we act on our senses, so it makes sense to figure out how this sense world works.

It might be wrong to say there are any rightly basic beliefs
 
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Sayre

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If we don't know if the universe was caused by a God, or gods, or magic force, or dream, or natural state, clearly you aren't justified in just deciding to choose one without reason. You either have to figure it out, attempt an educated guess based on the evidence, or say you don't know. Either way you are never totally sure.

Perhaps it is wrong to talk about anything as basic beliefs. We think there are other minds because we have a mind, they are formed and act like us, and we know we would like to them (if they had a mind) like how they look to us. So it is reasonable to think other people have minds.

In the case of memory, maybe the universe appeared like this a few seconds ago, but it would seem more reasonable to think the universe began at a beginning rather than part way through.

Maybe our senses are wrong, but it's almost necessary that we act on our senses, so it makes sense to figure out how this sense world works.

It might be wrong to say there are any rightly basic beliefs

Perhaps. But this isn't quite what I was getting at. I agreed that a full on theology about the character and nature of God is not a properly basic belief. But (given your comment about to think that the universe began at a beginning) I think it is reasonable to have a basic belief about whether or not the cause of that beginning was natural or supernatural.

That kind of belief cannot be reduced to a subset of beliefs, and cannot be tested. It also can't be inferred from something else.
 
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Paradoxum

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Perhaps. But this isn't quite what I was getting at. I agreed that a full on theology about the character and nature of God is not a properly basic belief. But (given your comment about to think that the universe began at a beginning) I think it is reasonable to have a basic belief about whether or not the cause of that beginning was natural or supernatural.

That kind of belief cannot be reduced to a subset of beliefs, and cannot be tested. It also can't be inferred from something else.

It isn't reasonable to just make up that belief. If you give a reason, even a bad one, that is more acceptable.

We may figure out through science how everything in the universe works and where it came from. It may also be guessed at, eg: There is no good evidence of the supernatural, and so far a massive amount of things have been explained naturally, so it might be reasonable to think the source of the universe is more likely natural than supernatural.

Even if it couldn't be tested or inferred you should just say that you don't know. There is no reason to take a position if you have no reason to take either position. Taking a position without any reason at all is absolutely and utterly unjustified.

There are ways to argue that the first cause was supernatural, but if you just want to make up an answer you show you want to live in your own world of delusion, and can't handle the reality of not knowing or using your brain.
 
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Sayre

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It isn't reasonable to just make up that belief. If you give a reason, even a bad one, that is more acceptable.

We may figure out through science how everything in the universe works and where it came from. It may also be guessed at, eg: There is no good evidence of the supernatural, and so far a massive amount of things have been explained naturally, so it might be reasonable to think the source of the universe is more likely natural than supernatural.

Even if it couldn't be tested or inferred you should just say that you don't know. There is no reason to take a position if you have no reason to take either position. Taking a position without any reason at all is absolutely and utterly unjustified.

There are ways to argue that the first cause was supernatural, but if you just want to make up an answer you show you want to live in your own world of delusion, and can't handle the reality of not knowing or using your brain.

We do it all the time. We take the position that we aren't living in the matrix. We take the position that our memory is based on a real history.

There are legitimate defensible reasons why someone would believe that the cause of the universe is external to the universe - that isn't belief for no reason.

If you follow the first cause type arguments you end up with either

1 - infinitism (that there is no beginning, we have an infinite regression of time or an infinite regression of causes)
2 - there is a first cause and it is natural
3 - there is a first cause and it is not natural

Any of those positions are defensible (though I lean towards #3) and each can be a basic belief.
 
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KCfromNC

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KCfromNC

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Perhaps. But this isn't quite what I was getting at. I agreed that a full on theology about the character and nature of God is not a properly basic belief. But (given your comment about to think that the universe began at a beginning) I think it is reasonable to have a basic belief about whether or not the cause of that beginning was natural or supernatural.

Any ideas about the universe having a beginning are predicated on lots of other things. There's various religious mythologies which assert it and there's also some scientific views that describe it. Relying on those to get the idea of a non-static universe to then come to a decision about something natural or supernatural causing it pulls in a lot of baggage for something people are calling a "basic" belief.
 
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Paradoxum

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We do it all the time. We take the position that we aren't living in the matrix. We take the position that our memory is based on a real history.

Well maybe we shouldn't merely assume these things. Plus there maybe be reasons involved there.

There are legitimate defensible reasons why someone would believe that the cause of the universe is external to the universe - that isn't belief for no reason.

If you follow the first cause type arguments you end up with either

1 - infinitism (that there is no beginning, we have an infinite regression of time or an infinite regression of causes)
2 - there is a first cause and it is natural
3 - there is a first cause and it is not natural

Any of those positions are defensible (though I lean towards #3) and each can be a basic belief.

I agree that they can be defended with reasons, and that they should be defended with reasons. If you don't think one is more probable than the other then you say you don't know... you don't just randomly pick one for no reason.
 
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ThinkForYourself

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Who is doing the semantic fiddling though?

17 different kinds of atheism according the following article
17 Kinds of Atheism

If you read the article, you will realize that there is one kind of atheist as relates to atheism, the rest is personal preference, ie how their atheism interacts with society and religion.
 
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bhsmte

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Why do you think God is not a basic belief?

Depends on how you define a "basic belief".

From a social aspect (at least still in the United States), belief in God is a basic belief, but it is not a basic belief based on evidence.

Many people have the basic belief that consuming high quantities of refined sugar increase the risk for diabetes in and of itself and this is not true. Many people have the basic belief if you do 200 sit-ups a day, you will burn fat around your mid-section and this is not true.

People have all sorts of basic beliefs they hold which are patently false, because they simply lack the knowledge to know otherwise and they simply were told something or heard something and they latched onto it.
 
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CounselorForChrist

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The truth is atheists don't want to accept God exists and deny the proof because it would mean someone is above them. They prefer to be the gods of their own life. Even despite the fact we know God does not control your life, you still have free will. Or maybe its the fact they don't like the idea of they would have to change who they are in order to go to heaven. Lets face it, we could spend our lives having fun and partying... who wants to give that up? Most don't.

And on top of it the best proof that atheists do believe in God is the fact that they say Hes fake and made up.... and yet they insist on talking about Him. If Hes not real then what is there to discuss? Why waste your life time arguing with us delusional people? Its because far in the back of your mind you fear God may be real and you cannot accept it. It goes against what you know. Its not fair to you.

Generally the response to this is anger. Thus proving you know what I say is true. Even your psychology teaches a person who is angry in response to something often does so because they know you are right but refuse to admit it. Its why I have always said I enjoy when atheists respond to me because I have no need to respond back because they are proving everything I said.

Although by saying what I have some may not respond to try and prove me wrong. But if thats what you are doing, then it would means I am also right and you want to respond but are holding back because you don't want me to prove you right.
 
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TillICollapse

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The truth is atheists don't want to accept God exists and deny the proof because it would mean someone is above them. They prefer to be the gods of their own life. Even despite the fact we know God does not control your life, you still have free will. Or maybe its the fact they don't like the idea of they would have to change who they are in order to go to heaven. Lets face it, we could spend our lives having fun and partying... who wants to give that up? Most don't.

And on top of it the best proof that atheists do believe in God is the fact that they say Hes fake and made up.... and yet they insist on talking about Him. If Hes not real then what is there to discuss? Why waste your life time arguing with us delusional people? Its because far in the back of your mind you fear God may be real and you cannot accept it. It goes against what you know. Its not fair to you.

Generally the response to this is anger. Thus proving you know what I say is true. Even your psychology teaches a person who is angry in response to something often does so because they know you are right but refuse to admit it. Its why I have always said I enjoy when atheists respond to me because I have no need to respond back because they are proving everything I said.

Although by saying what I have some may not respond to try and prove me wrong. But if thats what you are doing, then it would means I am also right and you want to respond but are holding back because you don't want me to prove you right.
Your post is a great example of strawmen, ad hominems, needling, and false dilemmas. Since you realize such approaches, by your own admission, often antagonize people, I'll toss "trolling" into the mix.

Notice I didn't make personal accusations about your motives, or claim to know what you were really thinking and feeling, or attribute certain judgements about you, etc.

A possible summarization of your post:

"I know what you're really thinking and feeling, despite what you say, and any response or reaction by you that disagrees with me and my own accusations will only prove my assumptions correct to myself and others, whether you admit to it or not or they admit it or not."

What I'm confused about, is why such types of assumptions are okay with a person ? So I'll ask you personally ... why is this type of thinking and behavior okay to you personally ? I'm not asking in generalities ... I'm asking about you specifically ... are you content with this type of thinking and behavior towards others, and if so, why ?
 
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Kylie

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This sums it up pretty much.

tumblr_luwcg4ArMF1r6yihbo1_500.jpg
 
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TillICollapse

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This sums it up pretty much.

tumblr_luwcg4ArMF1r6yihbo1_500.jpg
I've seen this a million times ... my question is, WHY lol ? Why is a person okay with that type of behavior and thinking ? At what point are they content with it and are like, "Yup. This is the good stuff. I'm going with this ..." ?
 
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Gadarene

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The truth is atheists don't want to accept God exists and deny the proof because it would mean someone is above them.

There is already someone above me - our legal system. Which I'm in favour of. So no, this is wrong.

They prefer to be the gods of their own life.

Even though very few atheists consider themselves to be gods :wave:

Even despite the fact we know God does not control your life, you still have free will. Or maybe its the fact they don't like the idea of they would have to change who they are in order to go to heaven. Lets face it, we could spend our lives having fun and partying... who wants to give that up? Most don't.

Funny, I don't spend much time partying at all, and it's scarcely that wild when I do, so either I'm not an atheist, or you're just making stuff up as you go along.

And on top of it the best proof that atheists do believe in God is the fact that they say Hes fake and made up.... and yet they insist on talking about Him. If Hes not real then what is there to discuss? Why waste your life time arguing with us delusional people? Its because far in the back of your mind you fear God may be real and you cannot accept it. It goes against what you know. Its not fair to you.

No, it's because Christians still have institutional privilege and insist on trying to force their beliefs on other people (anti-gay marriage, etc)

Generally the response to this is anger. Thus proving you know what I say is true. Even your psychology teaches a person who is angry in response to something often does so because they know you are right but refuse to admit it.

Does the holocaust anger you, xfreak?

Better not, because if it does it means you're a Nazi, according to your logic.

Its why I have always said I enjoy when atheists respond to me because I have no need to respond back because they are proving everything I said.

Yes, I'm sure it is convenient to talk yourself out of responding to the piffle you've just posted. Why not save yourself the bother and don't bother posting it in the first place next time?

Although by saying what I have some may not respond to try and prove me wrong. But if thats what you are doing, then it would means I am also right and you want to respond but are holding back because you don't want me to prove you right.

You really and truly think this gibberish is convincing? Try an actual argument instead of inanity and stereotypes.
 
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Gadarene

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My point is about establishing burden of proof when debating the existence of god(s).

What I have had confirmed to me on this thread and on other forums is that conveniently it might seem, the definition of atheism has evolved (or drifted as you put it) over time.

Well, the link I posted did point out that negative atheism has been around a while.

Might this be because, actually strong/ positive atheism (the absolute claim that there is no god) has be soundly proven to be a logical absurd thing to claim?

Strong atheism as any definition shows cannot shift the burden of proof for the reasons I mention in post #1.

Which is irrelevant to weak atheism.

Btw, there are positive atheistic arguments against the Christian god.

I just do not bother making them largely because (a) they are not arguments for atheism as such, only against one particular form of theism, and (b) still not my burden of proof :wave:

So they are certainly a handy extra to have, but it is still not a priority for me to make them.

Where we have ended up now is with an incarnation of atheism which actually doesn't deal with the very subject matter it originally addressed; namely whether god exists.

Of course it does. It still addresses the arguments made by those making the positive claim that God exists.

Holding the popular atheistic position (lack of belief in god) is no more than a shared state of mind.

It means that both strong and weak atheism.....are atheism.

It doesn't even warrant sensible dialogue or necessity of burden of proof with theism primarily because their starting points aren't opposites - they're dealing with totally different things in reality..

Whatever you need to tell yourself to evade presenting evidence for your burden of proof. It changes the situation not a jot.
 
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Gadarene

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It's hard to have a discussion with someone who calls themselves an "atheist" without knowing whether they use the term to mean they are undecided (i.e. they lack an active belief in the existence of gods, but equally lack an active belief in the non-existence of gods), or have taken an active belief in the non-existence of gods.

It is scarcely undecided. I am quite certain there is no compelling evidence for gods so far, but that might change as our knowledge increases. The lack of any evidence is justification for atheism in the mean time.

In much the same way as we don't believe in other posited entities with zero positive evidence backing them up. Russell's teapot, the invisible pink unicorn etc. All quite consistent. Absence of evidence for a posited entity justifies a lack of belief in that entity.

That is about all one need really say on the matter of negative atheism, from here it is up to the evidence presented by the one making the positive claim.

When discussing with someone who is undecided the meeting is between someone who has taken a position and someone who takes no position, in which case it is reasonable to ask the one making an assertion to demonstrate why they make the assertion. The person who is undecided makes no assertion and as such does not have a position to support.
Exactly. Which is why the burden of proof is on the theist if they encounter a negative atheist, not on the theist.

As I said, it is a matter of expediency for everyone. You do not exactly want me to sit here discussing arguments we both find unconvincing. It would be quicker for everyone to tackle what you find most convincing.

When discussing with someone with an active belief in the non-existence of gods, the meeting is between two people who have taken opposing positions and so it is reasonable to expect both sides to demonstrate why they believe as they do.
Yes, quite. I have no problem with people asserting that strong atheists have their own burden of proof to meet. The issue is that there are far fewer strong atheists around than people would like to think, so this means the positive claimants will end up shouldering most of the burden of proof.

I personally didn't pick negative atheism for expediency - I picked it because it's the most reasonable stance to me. It is rather baffling that some people will insist I defend a stance I don't actually hold.

To transfer the approach into the political domain (and using US politics for the sake of an example) the default political allegiance has to be no allegiance to either party. If someone who votes Democrat discusses politics with someone who has yet to decide how to vote, the person who has yet to decide doesn't need to justify why they have yet to decide but the person who votes Democrat should be ready to explain why. If a person who votes Democrat discusses politics with a person who votes Republican it is absurd to suggest that one position is the default and the person taking the other position should justify their stance, the only useful discussion would see both parties explaining why they took the stance they did.
I was thinking of it more in terms of a senator from the republican party deflecting questions by randomly asserting that their opponent is not actually a democrat when said democrat points out that the senator hasn't made a particular policy ^_^

I think we can agree such behaviour would be considered rather dishonest and evasive, as the observation stands on its own merit, rather than on the political label of the person objecting ;)
 
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poolerboy0077

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If it is not then atheism cannot be understood correctly as "believing there is no god. " and should instead be understood as "not believing that there is a God" - which is merely a lack of knowledge something that infants and animals also share, and only deals with beliefs rather than whether something (God) actually exists or not..
Both can technically fall under the umbrella term "atheism." From my own experience, most atheists are agnostic atheists which hold to the second definition, called "weak" atheism. There is also something known as strong atheism which makes a positive claim. You are correct in surmising that the burden of proof lies with anyone making an assertive claim. So while mere rejection of a belief shifts the burden to the theist, a strong atheist would have a burden of proof.

The only instance in which I would be compelled to adhere to strong atheism would be only in those instances in which the theist advances a God claim that violates the Law of Non-contradiction in logic (e.g., saying, as William Lane Craig has, that God is an atemporal, changeless, disembodied mind that can think -- thinking depends on change so this amounts to a contradiction). I would never be tempted to say all God claims are ipso facto contradictory. It would depend on how the person conceptualizes God. If there is another legitimate reason for adhering to strong atheism outside of this instance I am not aware of it.
 
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