• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The burden of proof fallacy?

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Oh Jeeze. You do realize that's a Scientology commercial that was sloppily edited by someone to attach an atheist label at the end, don't you?

No.


Cute. And we all know that only this fictitious ad involves people who speak about atheism in this way.

Calling it faith is disingenuous. They're values that are held -- valuing evidence, reason, etc. Moreover, that certain trends exist among people who reject certain things does not make atheism itself a positive claim. It just simply identifies like interests that led them to that non-subscription.

Values are by definition faith claims, given that values imply a conception of the good that can't be evidenced, or in this instance haven't been evidenced. And this goes beyond values to systems of thought or philosophies held in an unquestioning way, such as scientism, which BTW negates itself -- much like an insightful atheist would say about certain conceptions of God that theists have.

What makes atheism "positive" is adding stuff to it that goes beyond the morphological implications of the term: a-theism, no belief in gods. That's all.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I'm fine with people using all sorts of adjectives in whatever superfluous way when discussing things (I do it myself, it's fun), but please for the love of no God, don't say I'm complicating things.

That's terribly condescending and inconsiderate. OK?

Condescending to say you complicate matters?

This is a board where people share opinions, you should expect some are going to have certain observations. IMO and my observation, you have a tendency to redefine and make issues more complicated than they need to be.

I could be wrong, but it is my observation.
 
Upvote 0

Gadarene

-______-
Apr 16, 2012
11,461
2,507
London
✟90,247.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Labour
I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as positive and negative atheism before our discussion, so I don't know how I'm redefining them.

I'd already posted the definitions in the thread beforehand, so I thought you'd have seen them.

Negative and positive atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It refers to the form of the gods-not-existing stance. That's all.

I'll refrain from replying to the entirety of this post until this particular crossed-wire has been disentangled. There are a few things I should highlight now, though:

I'd be interested in hearing more on this point.
What the outspoken reason+logic type of atheists do often identify as is as "skeptics". That term does entail a requirement of logic and reason - and I've seen plenty of skeptic infighting, complete with accusations of you're-not-really-a-proper-skeptic. There's a pretty big rift in some quarters of skepticism in the US at the moment between nonfeminists and feminists, with each side accusing the other of failing to be skeptical enough.

(And yes, I realise "skeptic" has its own history beyond that of the recent increase in atheists using the term, so it's not perfect, but it is a better match for required identification with the particular ideals you've brought up)

Changing most of the objections here to "skeptics" as a group would better fit the bill than "atheist".

I wonder if you'd be as snippy with this earlier response if you didn't identify on some way with atheism in general being considered Stalinesque. But your atheism (negative atheism) and positive atheism are two completely different beasts.
People get snippy when they are repeatedly labelled with horrible things that they aren't, Received. This is up there with xfreak's "the reason you argue back is because you know it's true" cobblers.

A lot of the labels under discussion here - "new atheism", "militant atheism", "Stalinist atheism" - they've been used time and time again to label atheists with terms they have not personally adopted, and to try and shut down their discussions.

All Richard Dawkins had to do to be labelled shrill, strident and militant was to publish a few books and make his opinions known. THAT JERK. -_-

And in a similar vein, you have "just theist" theists, who might be seen as the theistic reflections of negative atheists, who "just don't believe" in God. And you have theists who espouse particular beliefs about God, just like you have positive atheists, who espouse particular beliefs about atheism.
Indeed, and part of the reason for the insistence on burden of proof being (usually) on theists is that you are most likely to find positive theists encountering negative atheists.

I'm dead serious, no rhetoric at all, about this. It can't be "proven" unless we're both going to take the time to randomly select a cross section of atheists and see how many identify with rationality versus how many consider things like rationality correlated but not identifiers of their atheism.
Well, I wasn't even talking about a cross-section of all atheists to begin with. Have any of the four horsemen (Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens and Harris), for example, ever said that such things make you an atheist and if you do not acknowledge them in the way that they do then you are not an atheist?

I'd settle for one example of a prominent atheist making a no-true-atheist to begin with - so far we're on none.

I've not read any Dennett or Harris, but I think you're going to be hard pressed to find Dawkins or Hitch making any kind of claim of that kind. I might be wrong though.

Even this is arguably flawed, given that people might easily say, "oh, atheism is not believing in God," but speak of things like rationality and other things the commercial holds in such a way that indicates positive atheism.
That "way" would need enunciation and would then need to pass criticism - so far you seem to think it is "saying they're good things worth seeking and might appeal to other people". Or expressing one particular way of becoming an atheist and recommending it to others. So far, it's a pretty weak criterion.
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If stating that someone is complicating things as a substitute for discussing things seriously with them, then yes, that can be considered condescending. "Oh, Received, you're just redefining things again. C'mon now and join us truth lovers after you finish your fit."
 
Upvote 0

Received

True love waits in haunted attics
Mar 21, 2002
12,817
774
42
Visit site
✟53,594.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Okay, Gadarene, I take it that possibly our entire discussion has involved terms with different meanings. I *made up* positive and negative atheism according to definitions I think I've made before (but I'm too lazy to look up). Your definitions are very different than what I have in mind. And I'm very strongly going to state that it isn't at all "redefining" a term if you happen to use the same term but make a point to state what this term means beforehand. Sorry for the confusion.

It's like this.

Two people both identify as atheist. One person creates a group that basically supports atheism "against the nonsense of theism," talks about reason and science as the best, and involves other atheists, where they all get together and talk about things (how bad theism is, how good it is to be an atheist so you're not deluded like theists, etc.). The other person doesn't even think about doing anything at all with his atheism; he responds to the other atheist by saying, "I just don't believe in any deities." Boom.

The first atheist is the positive atheist. He, explicitly or implicitly (by his behavior), identifies things with his atheism, such as valuing not being a theist, holding to an atheist culture (which invites other atheists with similar values), upholding reason and science, etc. The other atheist is a negative atheist. He just doesn't believe in any deities.

That to me summarizes the distinction more along values lines than philosophical ones. The very existence of any group or person who *prizes* his atheism is indicative, I think, of at least a seedling of positive atheism (remember, as I've defined it), given that you can't prize something without having holding to the existence of certain variables or identifiers that go along with it.
 
Upvote 0

Gadarene

-______-
Apr 16, 2012
11,461
2,507
London
✟90,247.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Labour
And this goes beyond values to systems of thought or philosophies held in an unquestioning way, such as scientism,

"Scientism" is a bit like "new atheism" - it's a term more often than not projected onto other people than readily adopted by them.

Usually done, I note, when the person accused of "scientism" criticises a sacred cow using science. It's less "this person thinks science can call into question something I hold dear" and more "this person thinks science can prove everything!"

Even though they mightn't. If someone has a view which is a total one, then if that view is criticised using science they might assume that the person treats science as a total belief as well. Which ain't necessarily so.
 
Upvote 0

Gadarene

-______-
Apr 16, 2012
11,461
2,507
London
✟90,247.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Labour
Okay, Gadarene, I take it that possibly our entire discussion has involved terms with different meanings. I *made up* positive and negative atheism according to definitions I think I've made before (but I'm too lazy to look up). Your definitions are very different than what I have in mind. And I'm very strongly going to state that it isn't at all "redefining" a term if you happen to use the same term but make a point to state what this term means beforehand. Sorry for the confusion.

Nah, you're fine, I jumped the gun on the definitions bit because I assumed you'd already seen me post that wiki link before, so apologies for that. I don't think it resolves absolutely everything which was why there was still a fair bit of posting after I posted the link a second time, but it clears some of it up.

It's like this.

Two people both identify as atheist. One person creates a group that basically supports atheism "against the nonsense of theism," talks about reason and science as the best, and involves other atheists, where they all get together and talk about things (how bad theism is, how good it is to be an atheist so you're not deluded like theists, etc.). The other person doesn't even think about doing anything at all with his atheism; he responds to the other atheist by saying, "I just don't believe in any deities." Boom.

The first atheist is the positive atheist. He, explicitly or implicitly (by his behavior), identifies things with his atheism, such as valuing not being a theist, holding to an atheist culture (which invites other atheists with similar values), upholding reason and science, etc. The other atheist is a negative atheist. He just doesn't believe in any deities.

That to me summarizes the distinction more along values lines than philosophical ones. The very existence of any group or person who *prizes* his atheism is indicative, I think, of at least a seedling of positive atheism (remember, as I've defined it), given that you can't prize something without having holding to the existence of certain variables or identifiers that go along with it.
I really think "skeptics" is probably the term you're looking for your version of "positive atheists", at least in terms of the example you describe. As I said, it isn't a perfect match, but it's pretty close.

I'm also a positive atheist by that definition - at least in part, anyway. I would be doing something with my atheism by pursuing and advocating for secularism, because that would be the motivator for it. And yet that's because even being a negative atheist (of either variety) is still seen as something questionable. It's worth remembering that some cultures come into existence as a reaction - if it wasn't for the initial impetus, they might not have come to exist at all.

And given that we now have two sets of terms that leave me identified as a positive negative atheist, I respectfully suggest you think of some new terms given that mine were here first :p

So, are you simply categorising, or do you think positive atheists (your version) are doin it rong in some way?
 
Upvote 0

kevinmaynard

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2013
671
12
✟886.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't understand what is so hard about using a dictionary.

Theist. At person who believes in a God or Gods.

Atheist. Someone who doesn't believe in a God or Gods.

Gnostic. Someone who claims knowledge

Agnostic. Someone who doesn't claim knowledge.

So in this discussion just put the words together to communicate what you are talking about.

A Christian who says I know God is real is a Gnostic theist. Someone who says I don't believe in God, but I don't know. Is an agnostic atheist.

It really isn't complicated.
 
Upvote 0

Gadarene

-______-
Apr 16, 2012
11,461
2,507
London
✟90,247.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Labour
I don't understand what is so hard about using a dictionary.

.....

It really isn't complicated.

As was demonstrated earlier in the thread, it depends on which dictionary one uses, so yes, actually it can be complicated.
 
Upvote 0

kevinmaynard

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2013
671
12
✟886.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As was demonstrated earlier in the thread, it depends on which dictionary one uses, so yes, actually it can be complicated.

No it isn't. Theist and Atheist have meanings as does Gnostic and Agnostic. Those words when used together appropriately convey what one believes. That has always been the case. Symantec games have caused the confusion.
 
Upvote 0

Gadarene

-______-
Apr 16, 2012
11,461
2,507
London
✟90,247.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Labour
No it isn't. Theist and Atheist have meanings as does Gnostic and Agnostic. Those words when used together appropriately convey what one believes. That has always been the case. Symantec games have caused the confusion.

So which dictionary is right then? They do not always agree, as this thread has demonstrated.
 
Upvote 0

kevinmaynard

Well-Known Member
Nov 17, 2013
671
12
✟886.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So which dictionary is right then? They do not always agree, as this thread has demonstrated.

atheist - definition of atheist by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com

Atheist - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

They all agree I honestly can't tell what you are talking about.

Theist and Atheist deal with belief and non belief. They require a modifier to tell you more. Gnostic and Agnostic tell you if there is a knowledge claim.
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
atheist - definition of atheist by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Atheist | Define Atheist at Dictionary.com

Atheist - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

They all agree I honestly can't tell what you are talking about.

Theist and Atheist deal with belief and non belief. They require a modifier to tell you more. Gnostic and Agnostic tell you if there is a knowledge claim.

I think this whole thing came into play in regards to questions the behavior of certain atheists, like a Richard Dawkins or anyone who is out there promoting atheism (at least in the opinion of some).

I would agree it is a bit of splitting hairs, but we all do come in different shapes and sizes. There are atheists who are loud about their lack of belief and why it is the right way to go and there are christians who are loud about their belief and why it is the right way to go.

If a person really wanted to, they could probably make a logical argument for a whole bunch of specific definitions of both theists and atheists, if you wanted to dig deep enough into specific behaviors etc..
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If stating that someone is complicating things as a substitute for discussing things seriously with them, then yes, that can be considered condescending. "Oh, Received, you're just redefining things again. C'mon now and join us truth lovers after you finish your fit."

I believe I have discussed things with you and in another thread, I asked you questions to clarify your position on something at least 4 times and you ignored the same and that tends to limit discussion possibilities.

Join us truth lovers? I would call that more condescending then myself simply saying I have the opinion that you complicate things.

Anyway, thats enough of this.
 
Upvote 0

quatona

"God"? What do you mean??
May 15, 2005
37,512
4,302
✟182,802.00
Faith
Seeker
Okay, Gadarene, I take it that possibly our entire discussion has involved terms with different meanings. I *made up* positive and negative atheism according to definitions I think I've made before (but I'm too lazy to look up). Your definitions are very different than what I have in mind. And I'm very strongly going to state that it isn't at all "redefining" a term if you happen to use the same term but make a point to state what this term means beforehand. Sorry for the confusion.

It's like this.

Two people both identify as atheist. One person creates a group that basically supports atheism "against the nonsense of theism," talks about reason and science as the best, and involves other atheists, where they all get together and talk about things (how bad theism is, how good it is to be an atheist so you're not deluded like theists, etc.). The other person doesn't even think about doing anything at all with his atheism; he responds to the other atheist by saying, "I just don't believe in any deities." Boom.

The first atheist is the positive atheist. He, explicitly or implicitly (by his behavior), identifies things with his atheism, such as valuing not being a theist, holding to an atheist culture (which invites other atheists with similar values), upholding reason and science, etc. The other atheist is a negative atheist. He just doesn't believe in any deities.

That to me summarizes the distinction more along values lines than philosophical ones. The very existence of any group or person who *prizes* his atheism is indicative, I think, of at least a seedling of positive atheism (remember, as I've defined it), given that you can't prize something without having holding to the existence of certain variables or identifiers that go along with it.
I´m not going to accuse you of overcomplicating a simple issue - but I´m actually not seeing what is remarkable or new about the trivial fact that different people who do a particular thing *not* are abstaining from doing it for different reasons, with different attitudes, with different degrees of being vocal about it, etc. etc.
"Vegetarians" are people who don´t eat meat.
Some don´t eat it because they don´t like the taste.
Some don´t eat it because they consider themselves animal lovers.
Some don´t eat it because they feel meat is unhealthy.
Some don´t eat it for religious and/or spiritual reasons.
Some don´t eat it because they find it too expensive.
Some don´t eat it because of environmental reasons, or because they believe that the production of meat is co-responsible for the hunger in the world.
Some think that animals have souls, some of these think that all souls are interconnected.
Some don´t eat it for a variety of combinations of these reasons.
Some, in addition, are even vegans.
Some are basically silent about not eating meat.
Some are very vocal.
Some are proselytizing.
Some are militant.
For some it´s just a personal decision, others condemn those who eat meat.
For some an entire ideology or worldview is connected with their vegetarianism.

So, exactly how does this variety pose a problem, and for whom?
Why would anyone feel justified in automatically assuming a particular reason or intensity or degree of attitude with someone who says "I´m a vegetarian"? The message is clear: "I don´t eat meat."
Everyone who e.g. responds: "But how come you wear leather shoes?", or "Then you should also be against abortion." has made unnecessary assumptions.
Apparently nobody feels the need to create categories like "positive" or negative vegetarianism". Nobody who has half a brain will point to the fact that Hitler was a vegetarian, too, and that therefore the term "vegetarian" needs to be qualified so not to be associated with National Socialism or genocide (although it may well be possible that there are neo-Nazis who are vegetarians because Hitler was). Etc. etc.

Where the heck is the problem? What is the fuzz all about?
When you here "vegetarian" you can be sure the person doesn´t eat meat. When you hear "atheist" you can be sure the person doesn´t believe in deities.
If you want to learn some more about their motives, their attitudes, the degree to which they associate it with other ideas etc. you can ask them. Until then, just pick the broadest available definition and you are on the safe side.
If you are determined to make assumption that´s a token that you aren´t really interested in them and their beliefs, anyway.


Plus: there is nothing new about it. It has always been that way, and it´s that way with all labels.

When someone tells me he is a theist, all it tells me that they believe in some sort of deity. The fact that the term doesn´t tell me whether they are e.g. militant fundamentalist Christian evangelicals, "lazy"/"folclorist" Hindus or people who just believe there needs to be some sort of unspecified first cause is no problem at all - unless I am determined to make unwarranted assumptions.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bhsmte
Upvote 0