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True enough. But I would make a couple of points for consideration:
(1) The Astronomical Book (chs 72-82) was found at Qumran, so I don't know why it would be discarded out of hand while maintaining the authenticity of other sections. If anything, you would have to discard The Book of Parables (chs 37-71) since it was not among the findings at Qumran.
(2) I'm curious if you would you accept the methods used by scholars to determine "authenticity?" Would you consistently apply the methods used for determining authorship and date across all of the "Book" of Enoch? I'm not sure how you could consistently apply those methods and maintain the book as "authentic," depending on what's meant by the term.
If anything, you would have to discard The Book of Parables (chs 37-71) since it was not among the findings at Qumran.
No you can't. And they come out, not go in.No. It's not. I can personally prove that the stars, sun and moon don't go into portals...
You are speaking of dating copies of copies of copies, not original manuscripts. You do realize there are none, nada, not one! original copy of Moses' five books, don't you?1. There are a lot of texts found at Qumran. There are sections of Daniel that are rejected. The various other sections in the book of Enoch are dated centuries apart.
2. I'm not following the question or objection. Modern Scholarship dates the various sections and gives them dates that are centuries apart. I am confirming that analysis.
Electromagnetic paths. Ok then.No you can't. And they come out, not go in.
The portals are the electromagnetic paths set for them by the Creator to run their courses in, daily, monthly, yearly – forever
I think the first half of the book of the watchers is genuine scripture. The second half has a piece of theology that I am not sure about. (That there is a portion of the dead that is already judged) I don't reject that second half I just haven't decided. The remaining chapters however are dated 100's of years a part. Part of dating something is based on carbon 14, and another part is based on content, key words, and terminology. If dating was entirely based on carbon 14 I would reject it as a final explanation. Some of the reason for the separate dating is that chapters 37-71 were not found in Qumran or the Greek version.You are speaking of dating copies of copies of copies, not original manuscripts. You do realize there are none, nada, not one! original copy of Moses' five books, don't you?
There are no original manuscripts of any of the sacred writings of any of the prophets or of the NT.
You are not able to date original manuscripts with only copies - of copies -of copies -of copies, and etc.I think the first half of the book of the watchers is genuine scripture. The second half has a piece of theology that I am not sure about. (That there is a portion of the dead that is already judged) I don't reject that second half I just haven't decided. The remaining chapters however are dated 100's of years a part. Part of dating something is based on carbon 14, and another part is based on content, key words, and terminology. If dating was entirely based on carbon 14 I would reject it as a final explanation. Some of the reason for the separate dating is that chapters 37-71 were not found in Qumran or the Greek version.
As I look over the dating it looks like the astronomical book is found at Qumran in fragments, those fragments date to 2nd century BC (watchers is 3rd century). It appears to be physically dated to 200BC, but there are two vastly different versions between the Qumran and Ethiopian versions. In contrast the book of the watchers has very little difference, (the version I have read has the differences in line) Like you I would reject carbon 14 as a viable method for determining source date. It is only useful in limiting late dates.
I haven't studied the later chapters enough to make a claim to their authenticity or accordance with the physical world, but I know there is enough separation between the 5 chunks of 1 Enoch to view them independently and not as a single body of work. So if the book of the parables fails it does not make the other internal books illegitimate. So I don't think there is any imperative that if we accept book 1 we must accept book 5.
Yes, it is an electric universe, and the sun is not a big burning furnace that will burn out, but is the "candlebra" receiving the light transmitted by the stars to it through "paths" by such means, which it refracts out to the entire creation, as the Psalmist states.Electromagnetic paths. Ok then.
You are not able to date original manuscripts with only copies - of copies -of copies -of copies, and etc.
The copies of Enoch from DSS are older copies of "Scripture" -[the word, "scripture" means "writing"] than any ever found written by Moses or any of the prophets, but for Daniel and Isaiah, I think. Even at that, those are not original manuscripts, but copies of copies, of copies, etc.
Yes, it is an electric universe, and the sun is not a big burning furnace that will burn out, but is the "candlebra" receiving the light transmitted by the stars to it through "paths" by such means, which it refracts out to the entire creation, as the Psalmist states.
You might study up on the electric universe.
Also, you might study up on the sun in the Word, as being the dwelling place/temple of God in heaven, where God sits on His throne and looks down upon the sons of Adam on earth, and they are like grasshoppers in His sight.
And Enoch went into the temple of God in heaven and said it was made of cut crystal and pillars of fire. John saw the fires and the "sea of glass" -crystal.
In Revelation, when the messengers come out of the temple in heaven with the bowls of wrath, they are coming out of the temple set in the sun.
Psalm 18:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
6 He hath set his tabernacle in the sun: and he, as a bridegroom coming out of his bride chamber, Hath rejoiced as a giant to run the way:
The Created Temple of God, Which is in the Created Heavens
Why isn't the book of Enoch in the canon? It's referenced in the bible numerous times.
Example #1
Jude 1:14-15 - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
"To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
The book of Hanock (Enoch) 1:9 -
''And see! He comes with ten thousands of His qodeshim (dedicated ones, or "angels") to execute judgment upon all, and to destroy all the wicked, and to convict all flesh of
all the works of their wickedness which they have committed wickedly, and of all the harsh matters which wicked sinners have spoken against Him.
Example #2
Matthew 5:5 -
Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth.
Referencing Hanock (Enoch) 5:7 -
But for the elect there shall be light and joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth.
8 ''And then there shall be given wisdom to the elect, and they shall all live and never again sin, either through wickedness or through pride, but they who are wise shall be humble.
9 ''And they shall not transgress again, nor shall they sin all the days of their hai (life), nor shall they die of anger or wrath, but they shall complete the number of the days of their hai (life). And their lives shall be increased in peace, and the years of their joy shall be multiplied, in eternal gladness and p6eace, all the days of their life.''
I shared the extra two verses, because this is a book that is proven to have been around some 2000 years before Yeshua (Jesus), and yet, he prophetically speaks on things only the prophets, and our Savior Himself knew of.
Example #3
John 12:35-36 -
35 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where they are going. 36 Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.
Hanok (Enoch) 108:11 -
''And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their trustworthiness deserved.
Here is the kicker...
Example #4 (Final Example)
John 5:22 -
22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
You ready for this?
Hanok (Enoch) 69:27-29 - For a tip, you can skip all of the text below, just be sure to read the red before you read the verse.
Some context, "Bĕn" means "Son", and Adam, quite literally is the Hebrew word and name, for Man. So, Bĕn of Adam, quite literally means "Son of Man". These passages from the book of enoch are taken from the Halleluyah Scriptures versions, which place special emphasis on giving literal word for word translations, and in places where pagan words have crept in, they choose to replace them with the originally intended hebrew/aramaic/greek words. In some cases, they even choose to introduce the original words because the words themselves have no equivalent in english that does the word complete justice. The context and content of the verses are exactly the same however, it's just a bit closer to the original. No verses are altered or doctored, or removed, only kept as closely to the original writings as possible. Also "יהוה" is the tetragrammaton, and is the name our Father told us to refer to him with for all of time. I'm not saying that these are terms you HAVE to use, I'm just giving context so everyone can understand the text below. Also, "Baruch" means "bless, or blessed" Much love, and enjoy!
24 And all these believe and give thanks before יהוה of hosts, and esteem (Him) with all their power, and their food is in every act of thanksgiving: they thank and esteem and exalt the Name of יהוה of hosts forever and ever.]
25 And this oath is mighty over them and through it [they are preserved and] their paths are preserved, and their course is not destroyed.
26 And there was great joy amongst them, and they baruch and esteemed and exalted because the Name of the Bĕn of Adam had been revealed unto them.
And He sat on the throne of his esteem, and the sum of judgment was given unto the Bĕn of Adam, and He caused the sinners to pass away and be destroyed from off the face of the earth, and those who have led the world astray.
28 With chains shall they be bound, and in their assemblage-place of destruction shall they be imprisoned, and all their works vanish from the face of the earth.
29 And from hereon there shall be none corruptible; for the Bĕn of Adam has appeared, and has seated Himself on the throne of His esteem, and all evil shall pass away before His face, and the Word of the Bĕn of Adam shall go forth and be strong before יהוה of hosts. This is the Third Parable of Hanok.
----------------------------------------------------
They also replace the names in scripture with their literal Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek names, depending on who it is. Which is why Enoch is Hanok. Nonetheless. The book is definitely inspired. The book was proven to have been dated looooooong before the Son of Man, and is referenced throughout the NT and the OT. The Book of Jasher is also referenced often, but I'm not familiar with it. Nor am I familiar with the book of Hanok, I'm just posting this to get the views and opinions of others. What I have read of it, it seems to stay perfectly in line with scripture. That, and all of the ancient civilizations that had these beings come down and teach them technology that made them capable to create structures that baffle us today... The book of Hanok tells us about all of that. They weren't aliens, they were Nephilim. It even explains why some of those civilizations just... up and disappeared. It explains a lot, and answers those questions as to why the flood took place, and what exactly those giants were in Genesis 6.
There's a lot more, but I'd have to read more to be able to talk about it. It's a cool book, and it's referenced way too often to be ignored. Jude was alive thousands of years after Enoch, so it's not possible that that reference was talking about anything other than Enoch's book.
I'm somewhat familiar with the electric universe theory. I don't see the relation in the Book of enoch even slightly. What I see is a map of cosmology which was shared between all of the Mesopotamian cultures. And they really believed the earth was a flat disc surrounded by water and that the stars entered and exited portals at the ends of the earth...
There is some very good and deep info in the book but it's about the nature of the "spirit world", not the physical world... the physical world is of no concern to prophecy.
The ancients knew that the firm earth was not a ball - that it was the stuff around the earth (erets) that surrounded the earth at certain projected angles. They didn't think the earth was a disk, necessarily. Even before differential geometry and modern topology the ancients realized the manifold nature of the erets, or terra firma.
As far as electric universe: I have no idea why there is such repulsion to something that can be verified by an undergraduate physics student.
What field surrounds planets and stars - according to science?
What happens when that field changes over time?
What happens to such a field that varies over time, and moves itself?
What does this look like at large distances?
Now, what happens when you have a multi-system of moving (electromagnetic) particles placed in a vacuum - relative to each other?
In general, what happens to the electromagnetic properties of a particle with an electromagnetic field associated with it - when placed in near absolute zero?
There is no other choice but the universe, as it were, to be electric - more precisely electromagnetic. In fact, the field density is a vector for electromagnetic interaction. Plasma - the real medium of alleged space does not have to be hot: it just usually is high kinetic energy. However, if you have a charge density that moves - and there is enough charge separation to create an [strong] electric field (i.e. it will interact with an external electric field,) then you have plasma.
The book of Enoch is a pithy book that explains this using literary devices, but also literal description.
I'm not debating the electric universe theory. I'm not saying it's invalid.
Now, the Book of Enoch has been used for thousands of years by sorcerers and magicians to develop ways to contact or employ demons. The cosmology laid out in the Book of Enoch makes this possible because religious cosmology is a map of the human psyche---which is where spirits dwell. This has been strictly demonstrated by Rosicrucians for many years...
The spirits of the giants are the nations. They are the beasts in revelation and daniel. The United States, founded by Rosicrucians themselves, is, in their own opinion, a mighty spirit and Enochian Magick is it's primal origin.
When you apply new theories you miss how massively important the Book of Enoch is to truly understanding the nature of spirits and the apocalypse itself.
If we are Christians and our enemies are people like Satanists, it's important to understand how they operate... people like Rosicrucians and other Luciferians are smart and they do their homework and many have some serious resources. It's beneficial to them if we believe that the Book is about the electric universe, or if the stories are literal when they're not exactly...
Either way, perhaps your right... but I would encourage you to investigate the the book from a Demonological standpoint because that has been it's primary use among the experts for a very, very long time.
The Sons of God, the "fallen angels" were actually the sons of Seth...
Every nation on this planet from the time of Ur has used geometry and algebra as forms of "magick" exploit, magnify, transport and trap energies. This isn't new; what is new, however, is this dissociation between the fallen (Rephaim, Anakim, Enim and Nephilim - four races of fallen entities,) and the gods.
That the gods and giants have been translated to some other humans of renown is a new doctrine that the ancients did not hold - one that was born out of the ENLIGHTENMENT period in order to separate the gulf between the attributes of mortals and gods.
The Renaissance was a very long magical incantation.
The theories of today are new; Enoch is very straight forward - and so are the other books that were purposefully removed from the canonical texts.
Part of the homework and resources they utilize is their connection to the gods/demons/fallen/giants/spirits. The pleb is the only poor soul that doesn't realize the density of activity surrounding - both physical and spiritual. Remember, God had to reveal the protection unseen to one of His servants.
I have and it almost killed me. I was exposed to magick and the spirit world from a young age. And, although I have not practiced Enochian magick, I have certainly been a casualty of it. It would be foolish for me to be ignorant of the entities that work to exploit such magick, but I believe others who have not experienced it are living bitter-sweet realities.
You are also right; there is no way to be prepared for your battle if you have no idea what you are fighting, or if you believe your enemy is fantastical.
Why, then, was their enmity put between the seed of the serpent, and the seed of Eve if these entities were the sons of Seth? Seth means "appointed" - the bloodline that will bring the Christ. You would want to be part of his seed line.
There are only two humans in living history that have held the titles of Son of God: Adam, and Christ. Seth is a son of man, and unfortunately celestial entities did engage in intercourse with humans.
This is also very important in the "fight" - as there are a bunch of folks that have hijacked the entirety of Israel save a remnant, and they are based on the bloodline that was spawned from the unholy union of many celestials interacting with many humans - before and after the deluge.
In reality, the book(s) of Enoch - the entire collection - is about 1/30 *known* texts that have been deemed non-canonical in some way. These texts all refer to Christ (Ancient of Days, and other names,) The Most High God (Lord of Spirits,) and the salvation plan of God, and Christ as Messiah. The books also describe the hypostasis of the celestials - which is important in understanding who participated in this mess, and what part they played.
That's a great post. I'm at lunch but I'll be back and edit this message with a response when I can use a keyboard hehe
Well, I don't know where to begin, but you are in error about the Book of Enoch and the physical world and the cosmology Enoch was shown and so on.I'm somewhat familiar with the electric universe theory. I don't see the relation in the Book of enoch even slightly. What I see is a map of cosmology which was shared between all of the Mesopotamian cultures. And they really believed the earth was a flat disc surrounded by water and that the stars entered and exited portals at the ends of the earth...
There is some very good and deep info in the book but it's about the nature of the "spirit world", not the physical world... the physical world is of no concern to prophecy.
No, they were not....
The Sons of God, the "fallen angels" were actually the sons of Seth...
No, they were not.
Moses wrote "the ben Elohym took wives of "bath Adam".
Moses had his own copies of the writings of Enoch. Sons of God =angels/Watchers, married daughters of Adam, wrote Moses..
When you speak of magnifying, transporting, and trapping energies, how do you define this 'energy'? What, in essence, are we talking about?Every nation on this planet from the time of Ur has used geometry and algebra as forms of "magick" exploit, magnify, transport and trap energies. This isn't new; what is new, however, is this dissociation between the fallen (Rephaim, Anakim, Enim and Nephilim - four races of fallen entities,) and the gods.
That the gods and giants have been translated to some other humans of renown is a new doctrine that the ancients did not hold - one that was born out of the ENLIGHTENMENT period in order to separate the gulf between the attributes of mortals and gods.
The Renaissance was a very long magical incantation.
I've read Enoch a great many times, much more than the other books in the Apocrypha, but simple and straightforward I would certainly say it's not. It has several books with several authors. I have read the it all, but for myself personally I have not found anything that stood out to me in during the 'cycles of the luminaries' section. I'm usually more interested in the story of the Watchers.The theories of today are new; Enoch is very straight forward - and so are the other books that were purposefully removed from the canonical texts.
Part of the homework and resources they utilize is their connection to the gods/demons/fallen/giants/spirits. The pleb is the only poor soul that doesn't realize the density of activity surrounding - both physical and spiritual. Remember, God had to reveal the protection unseen to one of His servants.
I have and it almost killed me. I was exposed to magick and the spirit world from a young age. And, although I have not practiced Enochian magick, I have certainly been a casualty of it. It would be foolish for me to be ignorant of the entities that work to exploit such magick, but I believe others who have not experienced it are living bitter-sweet realities.
You are also right; there is no way to be prepared for your battle if you have no idea what you are fighting, or if you believe your enemy is fantastical.
Why, then, was their enmity put between the seed of the serpent, and the seed of Eve if these entities were the sons of Seth? Seth means "appointed" - the bloodline that will bring the Christ. You would want to be part of his seed line.
There are only two humans in living history that have held the titles of Son of God: Adam, and Christ. Seth is a son of man, and unfortunately celestial entities did engage in intercourse with humans.
This is also very important in the "fight" - as there are a bunch of folks that have hijacked the entirety of Israel save a remnant, and they are based on the bloodline that was spawned from the unholy union of many celestials interacting with many humans - before and after the deluge.
In reality, the book(s) of Enoch - the entire collection - is about 1/30 *known* texts that have been deemed non-canonical in some way. These texts all refer to Christ (Ancient of Days, and other names,) The Most High God (Lord of Spirits,) and the salvation plan of God, and Christ as Messiah. The books also describe the hypostasis of the celestials - which is important in understanding who participated in this mess, and what part they played.
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