The Blood of Jesus

[Carl Emerson]

So Paul was talking to folks who had lost their salvation when He said they were to put on the armour of God in Ephesians ??? !!!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Wow... that sounds flakey !!!

So what do you think when someone takes off the helmet of salvation? Do they still have salvation? Or if they take of the breastplate of the righteousness of Christ, does that mean that they are no longer righteousness before God? If that is the case, it should be quite clear that they are not saved. What about the belt of truth. Without it all they have are lies and false teaching. Whoops! That doesn't sound good. Oh. Laying down the shield of faith means that all the fiery darts of the wicket embed themselves, causing all sorts of problems. So, it wouldn't be wise to take any of that armour off at any stage would it?

What I am saying is that being genuinely in Christ means that we have:
Salvation
Righteousness
Truth
Faith
The true Gospel of Christ.

Take any of these away and we are lost, back in our sins. What Paul is saying when he says to put on the whole armour of God is to examine ourselves to see if we are genuinely in the faith, by checking that we are truly converted to Christ (salvation), know that we have the righteousness of Christ (righteousness), and we know the truth (consistent with God's Word), and we are shielded by our faith in the promises of God.

Most cults and false teaching involves parts of this armour being missing. Some cults believe that only members of their cult are truly saved; others are depending on their own performance instead of knowing that they are covered by the righteousness of Christ; others have a foundation of false teaching; and still others use faith as a kind a sorcery to believing what they are naming and claiming; and still others are believing an entirely different Gospel to the one Paul preached. If you examine all the cults, you will see that they have deficiency in one or more of these. Therefore when they try to use the sword, they end up wounding each other and other innocent people instead of fighting the good fight against the evil one. And if they try and pray, their prayers never get beyond the ceiling because they are regarding iniquity in their hearts and God will not hear them. In fact, Jesus doesn't know them at all.

So, the armour of God is put on at conversion, and not taken off and put on again at will.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So what do you think when someone takes off the helmet of salvation? Do they still have salvation? Or if they take of the breastplate of the righteousness of Christ, does that mean that they are no longer righteousness before God? If that is the case, it should be quite clear that they are not saved. What about the belt of truth. Without it all they have are lies and false teaching. Whoops! That doesn't sound good. Oh. Laying down the shield of faith means that all the fiery darts of the wicket embed themselves, causing all sorts of problems. So, it wouldn't be wise to take any of that armour off at any stage would it?

What I am saying is that being genuinely in Christ means that we have:
Salvation
Righteousness
Truth
Faith
The true Gospel of Christ.

Take any of these away and we are lost, back in our sins. What Paul is saying when he says to put on the whole armour of God is to examine ourselves to see if we are genuinely in the faith, by checking that we are truly converted to Christ (salvation), know that we have the righteousness of Christ (righteousness), and we know the truth (consistent with God's Word), and we are shielded by our faith in the promises of God.

Most cults and false teaching involves parts of this armour being missing. Some cults believe that only members of their cult are truly saved; others are depending on their own performance instead of knowing that they are covered by the righteousness of Christ; others have a foundation of false teaching; and still others use faith as a kind a sorcery to believing what they are naming and claiming; and still others are believing an entirely different Gospel to the one Paul preached. If you examine all the cults, you will see that they have deficiency in one or more of these. Therefore when they try to use the sword, they end up wounding each other and other innocent people instead of fighting the good fight against the evil one. And if they try and pray, their prayers never get beyond the ceiling because they are regarding iniquity in their hearts and God will not hear them. In fact, Jesus doesn't know them at all.

So, the armour of God is put on at conversion, and not taken off and put on again at will.

So you claim Ephesians 6 is addressed to the unsaved ???

The audience is defined in Ephesians 2...

2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Hardly the unsaved...

 

[ARBITER01]

1 John 1:
7...if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Here the promise of the blood covering is conditional on walking in the light.

No it's two fold, walking in the light (holiness) and fellowshipping with other born again Christians,.... then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

 

[ARBITER01]

I think that the reference is speaking of the victory that Christ had over the devil and his angels when He shed His blood on the Cross. This means that the moment that Christ died on the Cross and rose again from the dead, the devil became a defeated foe, and every genuine convert to Christ already has the victory and has overcome the devil, not because of anything we have done, but what Christ has already done 2000 years ago when He shed His blood on the Cross, rose from the dead, then ascended to the heavenly Holy of Holies and presented His blood as the one-time sacrifice for sin. This makes sense of the Scripture, "We always have the victory through Christ". The war has already been won for us. All we need to do is to step into that victory through faith.

Oscarr, take a look at the scripture quote I made,..

1Jn 1:7 if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus |Christ| his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we fail to walk in the light, or we refuse fellowship with each other,.... we can lose that cleansing by the blood of Jesus. Is the text not implying that?

I do agree with you that I don't think this blood covering is something that we conjure up by faith that people in the past have taught, at least I don't understand it that way currently, but there are things by faith that we do that provide a greater cleansing unto ourselves,... such as staying out of sin and church services/fellowship with each other, but also communion. The wine is symbolic of the blood of Jesus, so it and the bread are something that we are to practice doing for cleansing (wine) and healing of the body (bread).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr, take a look at the scripture quote I made,..

1Jn 1:7 if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus |Christ| his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we fail to walk in the light, or we refuse fellowship with each other,.... we can lose that cleansing by the blood of Jesus. Is the text not implying that?

I do agree with you that I don't think this blood covering is something that we conjure up by faith that people in the past have taught, at least I don't understand it that way currently, but there are things by faith that we do that provide a greater cleansing unto ourselves,... such as staying out of sin and church services/fellowship with each other, but also communion. The wine is symbolic of the blood of Jesus, so it and the bread are something that we are to practice doing for cleansing (wine) and healing of the body (bread).

I agree that is what the Scripture says. But we have to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture and not base our doctrine on just one verse. We have to look at the whole breadth of Scripture that mentions the blood of Christ from when He bled on the Cross to when He offered it up in the heavenly Holy of Holies to be accepted as the once and for all sacrifice to the Father.

We also have to look at the range of Scripture that interprets "walking in the light as Christ is in the light". Paul says that if we live in the Spirit, we must walk in the Spirit. Isn't this is what genuinely converted believers do? Therefore if a person is not walking in the light, aka in the Spirit, is he conducting himself as a truly converted believer or as a hypocrite still in his sins while ever so religious?

It is what I said to Carl - that if we take of any element of the armour of God, we stop walking in the light, because having the full armour of God is equivalent to walking in the Spirit. Take one element away, and one stops walking in the Spirit, and goes back into the flesh, and those who do the works of the flesh will not be admitted into the kingdom of God. I think it is pretty well black and white here. We are either in the Spirit or in the flesh. We are either on the narrow path to the Celestial City or we are on the broad highway to Hell. There is no middle ground. This is why Paul said that he had to be sober and vigilant concerning his walk with the Lord unless having taught others he could become a castaway himself.

It is true that we are covered by the blood of Christ, but it is not that we have the blood all over us, or that we are bathing in the blood. We are covered aka protected by the blood that was offered up to the Father in the Holy of Holies 2000 years ago.

Paul told the Ephesians that once they were walking in the ways of the world, and he lists the works of the flesh that they did, and he goes on to say "But you are not like that now. You are cleansed made pure", etc. (my paraphrase). For the Ephesians, Paul puts the cleansing in the past tense. The reason for 1 John 1:9 is that we continually make God aware of our falls off the wagon of holiness so that when we come up for judgment, there are no surprises and the devil cannot bring any accusation against us, because God will say to him, "I know all that already:.

Sorry to rabbit on, but my fingers get infected with a gramophone needle when I get on one of my hobby horses!

 

[ARBITER01]

I agree that is what the Scripture says. But we have to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture and not base our doctrine on just one verse. We have to look at the whole breadth of Scripture that mentions the blood of Christ from when He bled on the Cross to when He offered it up in the heavenly Holy of Holies to be accepted as the once and for all sacrifice to the Father.

We also have to look at the range of Scripture that interprets "walking in the light as Christ is in the light". Paul says that if we live in the Spirit, we must walk in the Spirit. Isn't this is what genuinely converted believers do? Therefore if a person is not walking in the light, aka in the Spirit, is he conducting himself as a truly converted believer or as a hypocrite still in his sins while ever so religious?

It is what I said to Carl - that if we take of any element of the armour of God, we stop walking in the light, because having the full armour of God is equivalent to walking in the Spirit. Take one element away, and one stops walking in the Spirit, and goes back into the flesh, and those who do the works of the flesh will not be admitted into the kingdom of God. I think it is pretty well black and white here. We are either in the Spirit or in the flesh. We are either on the narrow path to the Celestial City or we are on the broad highway to Hell. There is no middle ground. This is why Paul said that he had to be sober and vigilant concerning his walk with the Lord unless having taught others he could become a castaway himself.

It is true that we are covered by the blood of Christ, but it is not that we have the blood all over us, or that we are bathing in the blood. We are covered aka protected by the blood that was offered up to the Father in the Holy of Holies 2000 years ago.

Paul told the Ephesians that once they were walking in the ways of the world, and he lists the works of the flesh that they did, and he goes on to say "But you are not like that now. You are cleansed made pure", etc. (my paraphrase). For the Ephesians, Paul puts the cleansing in the past tense. The reason for 1 John 1:9 is that we continually make God aware of our falls off the wagon of holiness so that when we come up for judgment, there are no surprises and the devil cannot bring any accusation against us, because God will say to him, "I know all that already:.

Sorry to rabbit on, but my fingers get infected with a gramophone needle when I get on one of my hobby horses!

Couple points here,... and I don't disagree with all you posted Oscarr,.... but to walk by The Holy Spirit is to walk in holiness. Holiness is that light that Jesus talked about. That light that was to be so bright as to shine upon a hill to everyone. Holiness includes light from within us.

Holiness is our duty, our service according to Paul, and that requires us to pursue closeness with GOD. Well, we won't be close to Him if we can't keep clean. I know two things that bring holiness into our lives, the blood of Jesus that cleanses us, and the washing of The Holy Spirit by the word of GOD.

This is not a one and done thing in our lives Oscarr, we must pursue holiness constantly and maintain it as well as grow thereby, or we will not live victoriously. It includes being constantly under the blood of Jesus.

 

[Carl Emerson]

As usual folks seem to confuse the blessings that come with sanctification with the fact of our salvation.

Folks do not loose their salvation if the become faithless for a time.

What they loose is the blessings that come from being in faith rather than unbelief.

So with respect to the blood there are two truths.

First the Cross fully deals with sin and we are transferred from one Kingdom to another by the power of His Blood. That is a done deal.

Secondly we through sanctification become progressively more like Christ but that is a work in progress. We slip up at times and miss the blessing of faith but our salvation is unaffected.

Please let's not confuse these two truths.

Folks DO NOT loose their salvation when they slip up.

When we are faithless He is faithfull for He cannot deny Himself.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Couple points here,... and I don't disagree with all you posted Oscarr,.... but to walk by The Holy Spirit is to walk in holiness. Holiness is that light that Jesus talked about. That light that was to be so bright as to shine upon a hill to everyone. Holiness includes light from within us.

Holiness is our duty, our service according to Paul, and that requires us to pursue closeness with GOD. Well, we won't be close to Him if we can't keep clean. I know two things that bring holiness into our lives, the blood of Jesus that cleanses us, and the washing of The Holy Spirit by the word of GOD.

This is not a one and done thing in our lives Oscarr, we must pursue holiness constantly and maintain it as well as grow thereby, or we will not live victoriously. It includes being constantly under the blood of Jesus.

I can't argue with that. The Scripture says that without holiness no one will see the Lord. So it is non-negotiable. Be holy, or be lost.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So Paul was talking to folks who had lost their salvation when He said they were to put on the armour of God in Ephesians ??? !!!

Maybe they didn't have salvation at any time before putting on the armour of God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Maybe they didn't have salvation at any time before putting on the armour of God.

Please...

It is clear they were believers in Ephesians 2 as I quoted previous.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Please...

It is clear they were believers in Ephesians 2 as I quoted previous.

Takes me a while before I give up and concede.

I must be getting past it. You and Arbiter1 are getting the better of me!

 

[Carl Emerson]

We all have a lot to learn...

 

[iwbswiaihl]

We read in James 5 that the wisdom from above is reasonable - i.e. able to be discussed.

So making a claim and refusing discussion doesn't really cut it.

I ask once more - is putting on the armour of God superstitious ???

Is praying for angelic protection superstitious?

Then why not a blood covering in keeping with the event of the passover ???

Hate to jump in starting from way back here, but reading the latest ones brought me back to your earlier comments. Like these two above; putting on the armor of God and praying for angelic protection, you ask if they are superstition, I would think that the putting on of the armor of faith is an expression that we are to walk by faith and claim what the word of God tells us has already been applied in our lives, 2 Cor 5:7 because we walk by faith and not by sight. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. And the event in Exodus was told to Moses to tell the Hebrews to put the blood of the lambs on the door post because the angel of death was going to take the first born if they did see the blood on the door post, this was a one time event, no where in scripture does it ever say though, to pray to an angel. Numbers 21:6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived. And when I see the blood they will pass over those inside the door, that would show they put the blood on the door post by faith. But I personally would not expect others to walk by what I believe instead of what scripture actually says about how they should apply. Every tub sets on its own bottom.

 

[Joined2krist]

Salvation can be lost: 'Do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me by your generous Spirit' Ps 51:11-12