The Blood of Jesus

[Jonaitis]

Hi Jonaitis...

Do you think 'putting on' the armour of God is superstitious ?

Do you think praying for angelic protection is superstitious ?

I have a friend new in Jesus who wanted to put anointing oil on the door of his house - he was a doctor over 6 feet tall - the power of God overcame him and he fell backwards down several concrete steps - he was deeply respectful of God and totally uninjured.

Was this superstition as well ???

By the way these are serious questions - I am not trying to be contentious - dont take anything personally...

Superstition does have some power, that's all I will say.

 

[NBB]

Jesus said if you didn't drank his blood you have no life, do you think Jesus was pro-cannibalism/vampire? of course not, its something spiritual, so yes the blood of Jesus has power.

 

[bmjackson]

that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Simple - those entirely sanctified.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Superstition does have some power, that's all I will say.

We read in James 5 that the wisdom from above is reasonable - i.e. able to be discussed.

So making a claim and refusing discussion doesn't really cut it.

I ask once more - is putting on the armour of God superstitious ???

Is praying for angelic protection superstitious?

Then why not a blood covering in keeping with the event of the passover ???

 

[Blade]

Hey brother.. I just last night watched someone talk about this exact same thing. Yes I believe he was spot on.. I always say the blood of Jesus. In dream my mom was in it. She had just went home a few months before that. In the dream I said "ok if this is really you then say we are washed by the blood of Jesus" it mumbled something and vanished.

PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS thankyou for sharing this

 

[Jonaitis]

We read in James 5 that the wisdom from above is reasonable - i.e. able to be discussed.

So making a claim and refusing discussion doesn't really cut it.

I ask once more - is putting on the armour of God superstitious ???

Is praying for angelic protection superstitious?

Then why not a blood covering in keeping with the event of the passover ???

I don't have to discuss, and I am not obligated to respond any further. You asked for an opinion, and I gave it. I've done nothing wrong here, brother.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't have to discuss, and I am not obligated to respond any further. You asked for an opinion, and I gave it. I've done nothing wrong here, brother.

Totally correct - no offence intended.

But those who refuse to discuss get less consideration as their offering does not qualify as Wisdom.

Same as those who post pages of scriptures and refuse to discuss.

 

[Jonaitis]

But those who refuse to discuss get less consideration as their offering does not qualify as Wisdom. Same as those who post pages of scriptures and refuse to discuss.

I guess I'll have to accept that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hey brother.. I just last night watched someone talk about this exact same thing. Yes I believe he was spot on.. I always say the blood of Jesus. In dream my mom was in it. She had just went home a few months before that. In the dream I said "ok if this is really you then say we are washed by the blood of Jesus" it mumbled something and vanished.

PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS thankyou for sharing this

Yes...

My father died of throat cancer - he was a smoker.

I was sitting in church a short time after his death and suddenly I 'saw' him but he was covered in blood I was frankly shocked - and Jesus 'spoke' to my spirit that he was covered in His blood.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I guess I'll have to accept that.

There is a lot to be gained by talking around issues.

CF suffers from scripture tennis... too many frankly refuse to engage.

 

[Jonaitis]

There is a lot to be gained by talking around issues.

CF suffers from scripture tennis... too many frankly refuse to engage.

I use to engage a lot years ago, but most people just want to argue. It is a fruitless task. Maybe someone will find your post in some random thread in a million, and happen to stumble upon it, but most people won't read a whole thread, let alone a particular conversation in the thread. The few that do, I do respond back.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I use to engage a lot years ago, but most people just want to argue. It is a fruitless task. Maybe someone will find your post in some random thread in a million, and happen to stumble upon it, but most people won't read a whole thread, let alone a particular conversation in the thread. The few that do, I do respond back.

Yes - there are a good bunch of folks that dialogue fruitfully but they are in the minority.

Feel free to respond to me any time you feel.

 

[aiki]

Dear friends,

I want to raise an important topic.

In the passage below we read of three keys to overcoming and being effective for Jesus.

Rev 12:11
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

Each of these three would seem to be descriptive of how victorious believers acted.

Well, the first of the three things mentioned isn't an action the victorious believer performed but, rather, the means by which they overcame the Accuser of the Brethren. By the shed blood of Christ, the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), believers are freed from the condemning force of the accusations of the devil. They are covered by the atoning work of Christ on the cross of Calvary, redeemed, justified and sanctified by the shedding of his blood for them.

Hebrews 2:14-15
14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he (Christ) himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:12-14
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Romans 5:8-9
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Ephesians 1:7
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Ephesians 2:13
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

All those who have been reconciled to God through faith in Christ and his atoning work on the cross are brought out from under the dominion of the devil, escaping his power, and made spiritual "overcomers" (1 John 4:4), indwelt by the Holy Spirit, his living "temples." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

So the Blood of the Lamb...

At passover the Blood of the Lamb was physically smeared on the House over the doorway.
One sacrificed Lamb for each Household.

No, the blood of a lamb - not The Lamb - was smeared upon the doorposts and lintel. This was a foreshadowing rite, a prefiguring of the shed blood of Christ on the cross that, applied to the believing sinner, causes the eternal wrath and punishment of God to "pass over" them.

I pretty much pray daily for our house and property to be covered by the Blood of the Lamb.

Brother, if you're a saved, born-again believer, you are so because you are cleansed from sin by the shed blood of Christ, freed thereby from the wrath of God and the clutches of the devil.

1 John 1:7
7 ...the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Hebrews 9:12-14
12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

You have no need, then, to pray for the application of Christ's blood to be made again and again - especially to things for which Christ did not shed his blood (houses, property).

I pray for angels to minister here and the presence of the Holy Spirit to be strong.

Like the Armour of God has to be put on, we similarly apply the Blood.

The power of the presence of the Holy Spirit within you is directly contingent upon your living in submission to his will and way all throughout each day. (James 4:6-10; Romans 6:13-22; Romans 12:1; 1 Peter 5:6)

Nowhere does the Bible indicate that the blood of Christ is to be applied in the manner you suggest. What's more, brother, the believer's "spiritual armor" is Christ, whom, by faith they "put on" forever at the moment they are saved.

Romans 13:14
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

Galatians 3:25-27
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Christ is our salvation (1 John 5:11).
Christ is the living Word of God (John 1:1).
Christ is our peace, the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6).
Christ is the Truth (John 14:6).
Christ is the believer's righteousness (1 Corinthians 1:30).

All of the things Paul described as the "armor of God" are found in Christ. This is why the entire passage about the armor is prefaced with:

Ephesians 6:10
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might.

Christ is the "armor of God" and we put him on permanently at the moment we trust in him as our Lord and Savior.

This would seem to be a very important topic to get right.

What is God saying ?

See above.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well, the first of the three things mentioned isn't an action the victorious believer performed but, rather, the means by which they overcame the Accuser of the Brethren. By the shed blood of Christ, the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), believers are freed from the condemning force of the accusations of the devil. They are covered by the atoning work of Christ on the cross of Calvary, redeemed, justified and sanctified by the shedding of his blood for them.

Hebrews 2:14-15
14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he (Christ) himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:12-14
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Romans 5:8-9
8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Ephesians 1:7
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Ephesians 2:13
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

All those who have been reconciled to God through faith in Christ and his atoning work on the cross are brought out from under the dominion of the devil, escaping his power, and made spiritual "overcomers" (1 John 4:4), indwelt by the Holy Spirit, his living "temples." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)



No, the blood of a lamb - not The Lamb - was smeared upon the doorposts and lintel. This was a foreshadowing rite, a prefiguring of the shed blood of Christ on the cross that, applied to the believing sinner, causes the eternal wrath and punishment of God to "pass over" them.



Brother, if you're a saved, born-again believer, you are so because you are cleansed from sin by the shed blood of Christ, freed thereby from the wrath of God and the clutches of the devil.

1 John 1:7
7 ...the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Hebrews 9:12-14
12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

You have no need, then, to pray for the application of Christ's blood to be made again and again - especially to things for which Christ did not shed his blood (houses, property).



The power of the presence of the Holy Spirit within you is directly contingent upon your living in submission to his will and way all throughout each day. (James 4:6-10; Romans 6:13-22; Romans 12:1; 1 Peter 5:6)

Nowhere does the Bible indicate that the blood of Christ is to be applied in the manner you suggest. What's more, brother, the believer's "spiritual armor" is Christ, whom, by faith they "put on" forever at the moment they are saved.

Romans 13:14
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.

Galatians 3:25-27
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Christ is our salvation (1 John 5:11).
Christ is the living Word of God (John 1:1).
Christ is our peace, the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6).
Christ is the Truth (John 14:6).
Christ is the believer's righteousness (1 Corinthians 1:30).

All of the things Paul described as the "armor of God" are found in Christ. This is why the entire passage about the armor is prefaced with:

Ephesians 6:10
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might.

Christ is the "armor of God" and we put him on permanently at the moment we trust in him as our Lord and Savior.



See above.

Yes... I expected this response.

Why would Paul ask folks to put on the armour of God, if as you suggest, it was already on ???

If Paul held your view he would have used different language like 'believe in' or 'trust in'

'put on' is an action.

You present a walk in Christ without any opposition from the adversary. This is not reality.

Consider what Jesus said to Peter... "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail". (Luke 22)

Jesus did not forbid Satan from attacking Peter.

Direct attacks form the enemy are expected and normal.

Here are examples of Paul referring to this.

2 Cor 2:
10 But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.

1 Thessalonians 2:18
For we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, more than once—and yet Satan hindered us.

2 Cor 12:7
"...there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me..."


So the suggestion that in this life we are completely immune to the activity of Satan is folly.

 

[aiki]

Yes... I expected this response.

Why would Paul ask folks to put on the armour of God, if as you suggest, it was already on ???

Because there is a difference between a born-again person's spiritual position in Christ and their reflection of that position in their daily living, their everyday, temporal condition. Over and over again, Paul writes to born-again brethren in his epistles of the relationship between who they are in Jesus Christ and how they then ought to live. Repeatedly, he outlines the facts of their spiritual position and then urges them, in light of these facts, to live accordingly. (See: Colossians 2-3; Romans 6; Galatians 4-5; Ephesians 1-4, etc.)

It is by knowing and then, by faith, trusting in, the truth of one's spiritual position in Christ that the reality of that position comes to full, tangible fruit in the life of a believer. And so, Paul is very careful to connect the believer's daily condition always to their spiritual position, the latter being the fundamental ground out of which the former arises (ideally).

Paul, then, in Ephesians 6:10-18 isn't indicating that a born-again person can put on and off the armor of God, the Person of Christ, in whom they move all the time. Instead, he is telling them that, as born-again, in-Christ, people they are to live in reflection of their position in Jesus.

For example, Christ is the Truth (John 14:6). All of reality emanates or extends from him; he is the Ground of All Reality and there is no objective, absolute Truth apart from him (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-17). In light of this, those who are "in Christ," Christians, ought to be going about their days "wearing" the "belt of truth," that is, seeing themselves and the world around them constantly through the lens of the Person of Christ, the Truth, and all that he has revealed in Scripture of himself and the Christian's union with him.

Christ is our righteousness, too. In him, clothed in his perfect righteousness, the believer obtains a right-standing before God, accepted by Him as one of His own. (1 Corinthians 1:30; Philippians 3:9; Romans 5:8-9, etc.) And so, the believer ought to live each day trusting in the truth of their fully-justified position in Christ, "wearing" the "breastplate of righteousness," reflecting in their actual living the fact of their justified status, confessing sin when it crops up, by the power of the Holy Spirit forsaking sin, day by day growing holier in the manner of their living.

And so it goes, Paul explaining that the Ephesian believers were to live out the truth of who they were in Christ, clothed in the "armor" of who he is, reflecting in their living their spiritual position as "joint-heirs with Christ." (Romans 8:17)

The idea that the Ephesian believers could actually put on and off their spiritual position in Christ is not in accord with the rest of Scripture (Romans 8:31-39; John 10:27-29; Hebrews 13:5; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). In their condition, in the manner of the Ephesian believers' actual, practical living this was possible, but not spiritually.

You present a walk in Christ without any opposition from the adversary. This is not reality.

Consider what Jesus said to Peter... "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail". (Luke 22)

Jesus did not forbid Satan from attacking Peter.

Direct attacks form the enemy are expected and normal.

??? Um...no, I never indicated in anything that I wrote what you are asserting here, brother. I don't deny what Paul wrote in Ephesians 6:10-12. The believer's battle with the devil and his demonic agents is the very reason Paul gives for the necessity of the believer to stand in the truth of who they are in Christ and in the power of his might. How did you get your conclusion above from what I wrote?

Here are examples of Paul referring to this.

2 Cor 2:
10 But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.

1 Thessalonians 2:18
For we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, more than once—and yet Satan hindered us.

2 Cor 12:7
"...there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me..."


So the suggestion that in this life we are completely immune to the activity of Satan is folly.

But there is no suggestion of such a thing in what I wrote. Nowhere do I suggest that the believer is immune to the attack of the devil. Protected, yes (if they remain by faith in the truth of who they are in Christ); immune, no.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Because there is a difference between a born-again person's spiritual position in Christ and their reflection of that position in their daily living, their everyday, temporal condition. Over and over again, Paul writes to born-again brethren in his epistles of the relationship between who they are in Jesus Christ and how they then ought to live. Repeatedly, he outlines the facts of their spiritual position and then urges them, in light of these facts, to live accordingly. (See: Colossians 2-3; Romans 6; Galatians 4-5; Ephesians 1-4, etc.)

It is by knowing and then, by faith, trusting in, the truth of one's spiritual position in Christ that the reality of that position comes to full, tangible fruit in the life of a believer. And so, Paul is very careful to connect the believer's daily condition always to their spiritual position, the latter being the fundamental ground out of which the former arises (ideally).

Paul, then, in Ephesians 6:10-18 isn't indicating that a born-again person can put on and off the armor of God, the Person of Christ, in whom they move all the time. Instead, he is telling them that, as born-again, in-Christ, people they are to live in reflection of their position in Jesus.

For example, Christ is the Truth (John 14:6). All of reality emanates or extends from him; he is the Ground of All Reality and there is no objective, absolute Truth apart from him (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-17). In light of this, those who are "in Christ," Christians, ought to be going about their days "wearing" the "belt of truth," that is, seeing themselves and the world around them constantly through the lens of the Person of Christ, the Truth, and all that he has revealed in Scripture of himself and the Christian's union with him.

Christ is our righteousness, too. In him, clothed in his perfect righteousness, the believer obtains a right-standing before God, accepted by Him as one of His own. (1 Corinthians 1:30; Philippians 3:9; Romans 5:8-9, etc.) And so, the believer ought to live each day trusting in the truth of their fully-justified position in Christ, "wearing" the "breastplate of righteousness," reflecting in their actual living the fact of their justified status, confessing sin when it crops up, by the power of the Holy Spirit forsaking sin, day by day growing holier in the manner of their living.

And so it goes, Paul explaining that the Ephesian believers were to live out the truth of who they were in Christ, clothed in the "armor" of who he is, reflecting in their living their spiritual position as "joint-heirs with Christ." (Romans 8:17)

The idea that the Ephesian believers could actually put on and off their spiritual position in Christ is not in accord with the rest of Scripture (Romans 8:31-39; John 10:27-29; Hebrews 13:5; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). In their condition, in the manner of the Ephesian believers' actual, practical living this was possible, but not spiritually.



??? Um...no, I never indicated in anything that I wrote what you are asserting here, brother. I don't deny what Paul wrote in Ephesians 6:10-12. The believer's battle with the devil and his demonic agents is the very reason Paul gives for the necessity of the believer to stand in the truth of who they are in Christ and in the power of his might. How did you get your conclusion above from what I wrote?



But there is no suggestion of such a thing in what I wrote. Nowhere do I suggest that the believer is immune to the attack of the devil. Protected, yes (if they remain by faith in the truth of who they are in Christ); immune, no.

Yes - thanks for the fuller explanation.

We have what is secured in Heaven concerning us.

We also have our present condition as not yet fully redeemed.

Can I discuss your quote here a little more ???

Paul, then, in Ephesians 6:10-18 isn't indicating that a born-again person can put on and off the armor of God, the Person of Christ, in whom they move all the time. Instead, he is telling them that, as born-again, in-Christ, people they are to live in reflection of their position in Jesus.

This is the critical point I was focusing on.

Paul clearly teaches the believers to 'put on' the armour of God regardless of whether this is a reality from heavens perspective or not.

In a similar way he speaks of having to die daily - again for heavens perspective he is dead to sin but still has to walk in that truth by right action - putting himself to death to raise Jesus up.

So in all these things, whether it is the blood or the armour, it is our actions that secure it's efficacy in daily life. The outcome is how vulnerable we are to the wiles of the enemy.

1 John 1:7
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[aiki]

Yes - thanks for the fuller explanation.

We have what is secured in Heaven concerning us.

Not sure what this means...

We also have our present condition as not yet fully redeemed.

Hmmm...its not so much that our condition is "not yet fully redeemed," I think, but that born-again believers simply don't, by faith, remain unmoved in the truth of who they are in Jesus. Every truly spiritually-regenerate person is a "new creature in Christ, old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17) It's not, then, that they have yet to become this new creature fully; they are - present tense, right now - a "new creature in Christ"; the old things of their life lived in separation from God are "passed away" - done, accomplished - not progressively "passing away."

One day, every born-again person, entirely freed from the penalty and power of sin (Colossians 1:13; Romans 6:1-6) when they were "made alive" spiritually by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:1; Romans 8:9; 1 John 4:13; Titus 3:5), will enter into an eternal condition totally free of the presence of sin, too, and in this regard, their salvation has yet to be completed. The believer's spiritual identity in Christ, though, is totally achieved at the moment of their conversion; it's all done; nothing remains to be accomplished. The truth of this fact is experienced as the Christian believer "reckons it so" (Romans 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:9) day-by-day counting on the truth of who they are in Jesus.

This is the critical point I was focusing on.

Paul clearly teaches the believers to 'put on' the armour of God regardless of whether this is a reality from heavens perspective or not.

In a similar way he speaks of having to die daily - again for heavens perspective he is dead to sin but still has to walk in that truth by right action - putting himself to death to raise Jesus up.

I don't know what you mean by "heaven's perspective." God says to the believer in His word that they are fully, eternally redeemed, justified and sanctified (1 Corinthians 1:30; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 1:7). This is His perspective, His declaration, about them. All of these things have been accomplished in and through Jesus Christ and only in being in him is the believer redeemed, justified and sanctified, made "dead to sin and alive unto God" (Romans 6:6-11), seated with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6), and a "joint-heir with Christ" (Romans 8:17). In Christ, the believer is wearing the "armor of God," too, whether they realize it or not. This is not a fact contingent upon the "perspective of heaven" - whatever that means - but the unalterable declaration of God.

The believer lives "dead to sin," they "die daily," as Paul did, not by dint of their own effort, but, by faith, remaining unmoved in the truth of their co-crucifixion with Christ, by the work of the Spirit enabled to reflect this truth in their practical living. (Philippians 1:6; Philippians 2:13; Philippians 4:13, Romans 8:13; 2 Corinthians 3:18, etc.) No man can crucify himself - not physically and not spiritually, which is why God crucified us with Christ, separating us from the power of the "old man" and sin in so doing.

Romans 6:6
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 5:24
Galatians 6:14
Colossians 2:8-15
Colossians 3:1-3

All that remains is for the believer to live, by faith, in the truth of what God has done, "reckoning it so" in the face of temptation (Romans 6:11) and remaining constantly yielded to God as His bond-servant (Romans 6:13-22). This is how the believer "dies daily" in their practical condition of living.

So in all these things, whether it is the blood or the armour, it is our actions that secure it's efficacy in daily life. The outcome is how vulnerable we are to the wiles of the enemy.

Oh? Is our salvation efficacious only if our actions secure it? Does our salvation actually depend upon us and what we do rather than our Savior? This would seem to follow from your thinking here. But Christ's shed blood has completely redeemed us whether or not we live by faith fully in the truth that it has. And the "armor" he is clothes us whether we live in recognition of the fact that it does or not. If the reality of these things depends upon us, upon our actions making them efficacious, we are in dire trouble because apart from Christ we can do nothing. (John 15:5)

The reason we come to Christ to save us is because we are, in-and-of-ourselves, too weak, too corrupted, too ignorant and short-sighted to save ourselves. And we are just as incapable of transforming ourselves, of living in the truth of who we are in Christ, in our own power. We are as dependent upon God to make us in our practical condition who we are in Christ as we were dependent upon Him to save us. Our "job" is simply to receive God's work, to remain by faith in it, and to reflect His work in our living. That's it. Straining and laboring to make the work of God real in our lives is to begin in the Spirit but attempt to finish in the flesh. (Galatians 3:1-3)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Not sure what this means...



Hmmm...its not so much that our condition is "not yet fully redeemed," I think, but that born-again believers simply don't, by faith, remain unmoved in the truth of who they are in Jesus. Every truly spiritually-regenerate person is a "new creature in Christ, old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17) It's not, then, that they have yet to become this new creature fully; they are - present tense, right now - a "new creature in Christ"; the old things of their life lived in separation from God are "passed away" - done, accomplished - not progressively "passing away."

One day, every born-again person, entirely freed from the penalty and power of sin (Colossians 1:13; Romans 6:1-6) when they were "made alive" spiritually by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:1; Romans 8:9; 1 John 4:13; Titus 3:5), will enter into an eternal condition totally free of the presence of sin, too, and in this regard, their salvation has yet to be completed. The believer's spiritual identity in Christ, though, is totally achieved at the moment of their conversion; it's all done; nothing remains to be accomplished. The truth of this fact is experienced as the Christian believer "reckons it so" (Romans 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:9) day-by-day counting on the truth of who they are in Jesus.



I don't know what you mean by "heaven's perspective." God says to the believer in His word that they are fully, eternally redeemed, justified and sanctified (1 Corinthians 1:30; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 1:7). This is His perspective, His declaration, about them. All of these things have been accomplished in and through Jesus Christ and only in being in him is the believer redeemed, justified and sanctified, made "dead to sin and alive unto God" (Romans 6:6-11), seated with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6), and a "joint-heir with Christ" (Romans 8:17). In Christ, the believer is wearing the "armor of God," too, whether they realize it or not. This is not a fact contingent upon the "perspective of heaven" - whatever that means - but the unalterable declaration of God.

The believer lives "dead to sin," they "die daily," as Paul did, not by dint of their own effort, but, by faith, remaining unmoved in the truth of their co-crucifixion with Christ, by the work of the Spirit enabled to reflect this truth in their practical living. (Philippians 1:6; Philippians 2:13; Philippians 4:13, Romans 8:13; 2 Corinthians 3:18, etc.) No man can crucify himself - not physically and not spiritually, which is why God crucified us with Christ, separating us from the power of the "old man" and sin in so doing.

Romans 6:6
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 5:24
Galatians 6:14
Colossians 2:8-15
Colossians 3:1-3

All that remains is for the believer to live, by faith, in the truth of what God has done, "reckoning it so" in the face of temptation (Romans 6:11) and remaining constantly yielded to God as His bond-servant (Romans 6:13-22). This is how the believer "dies daily" in their practical condition of living.



Oh? Is our salvation efficacious only if our actions secure it? Does our salvation actually depend upon us and what we do rather than our Savior? This would seem to follow from your thinking here. But Christ's shed blood has completely redeemed us whether or not we live by faith fully in the truth that it has. And the "armor" he is clothes us whether we live in recognition of the fact that it does or not. If the reality of these things depends upon us, upon our actions making them efficacious, we are in dire trouble because apart from Christ we can do nothing. (John 15:5)

The reason we come to Christ to save us is because we are, in-and-of-ourselves, too weak, too corrupted, too ignorant and short-sighted to save ourselves. And we are just as incapable of transforming ourselves, of living in the truth of who we are in Christ, in our own power. We are as dependent upon God to make us in our practical condition who we are in Christ as we were dependent upon Him to save us. Our "job" is simply to receive God's work, to remain by faith in it, and to reflect His work in our living. That's it. Straining and laboring to make the work of God real in our lives is to begin in the Spirit but attempt to finish in the flesh. (Galatians 3:1-3)

As I read your response there seems to be some confusion between what is ours in Him sealed in heaven - and the faith journey towards perfection which is completed at resurrection time.

Bringing the discussion back to practicality...

We for time to time have addicts to stay in our home.

They are unsaved come with spiritual baggage.

Like Paul dealt with the spirit in the lady who was interfering with His ministry we at times have to do likewise.

In order to proclaim in the Name of Jesus we have to be in that place of sanctification ourselves.

We need to put on the armour as Paul said - We need to be walking in the light and covered by His Blood as John said - we need to be in unity with one another not having unresolved anger and such that would give Satan opportunity as Paul said in Ephesians.

All this and more is necessary on the cutting edge of the Kingdom where territory is being taken for Christ.

So on the one hand we have completeness in Heaven

1 Peter 1
2 "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood"

Yet also we walk in imperfection and faith contesting, in Jesus, with powers of destruction.

So I dismiss the claim that we are perfected already and are not to be part of a battle being fought.

However I may have misunderstood you...

 

[aiki]

As I read your response there seems to be some confusion between what is ours in Him sealed in heaven - and the faith journey towards perfection which is completed at resurrection time.

I'm not confused about what is mine in Christ...

Bringing the discussion back to practicality...

We for time to time have addicts to stay in our home.

They are unsaved come with spiritual baggage.

Like Paul dealt with the spirit in the lady who was interfering with His ministry we at times have to do likewise.

In order to proclaim in the Name of Jesus we have to be in that place of sanctification ourselves.

In what "place of sanctification," exactly? And sanctification of what sort? The perfect, spiritual sanctification all believers possess in Christ Jesus? Or the practical sanctification of one's condition, one's daily living, over time in reflection of one's spiritual position of perfect sanctification in Christ?

What does it mean to be "in that place of sanctification"? Do you believe you can stand before God in your practical, mundane condition without need for further sanctification? And do you think this degree of sanctification is always necessary for dealing with demonic oppression/possession situations? In other words, do you think perfect sanctification in your actual, daily living is necessary to successfully overcoming the demonic in someone else's life? Doesn't that put the onus for their freedom from the demonic on you, rather than Christ? And how do you know you've arrived in your common living at such a state of sanctification?

We need to put on the armour as Paul said - We need to be walking in the light and covered by His Blood as John said - we need to be in unity with one another not having unresolved anger and such that would give Satan opportunity as Paul said in Ephesians.

Well, as I already pointed out, every genuine born-again believer has been wearing the "armor of God," who is Christ, from the moment they were saved - whether they realized it or not. Paul urged the Ephesians to recognize this reality and consciously, by faith, live in it (ie. - "put on the whole armor of God"). They weren't, after all, actually physically attiring themselves in the "breastplate of righteousness," and the "helmet of salvation," and the sandals of the "preparation of the Gospel of Peace." The Ephesian Christians didn't keep this "armor" in a dresser drawer, or hanging in a closet. No, Paul was telling the Ephesian believers to know and believe that this "armor" was theirs in the Lord ("be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might" - vs. 10), reflected in their living only as they, by faith, reckoned it so. But Paul didn't say anything about "walking in the light" or being "covered by Christ's blood" in his remarks to the Ephesian believers in chapter 6 of his letter to them.

Don't get me wrong: We absolutely should be "walking in the light as he is in the light," and standing on the spiritual battlefield Paul described to the Ephesian Christians cleansed of the stain of sin by the blood of Jesus (1 John 1:7) and freed of sin's power by the cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-11). But Paul doesn't indicate in Ephesians 6:10-18 that "putting on the armor of God" is constituted of these things.

"Walking in the light" is the result of putting on Christ and being cleansed by his blood. Only when a person is first spiritually-regenerated through union with Christ, indwelt and made spiritually alive by the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9-14; Titus 3:5-8), can they properly stand in unity with fellow born-again believers. But the cleansing of our lives by Christ's blood, our being made perfectly righteous and fully-sanctified in him and thus acceptable to God, is a permanent thing, happening before we ever learn to live in God-honoring unity with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

I agree with you - and Scripture - that we ought not to be living in a state plagued by unresolved anger and contention with fellow believers. But is this what Paul was talking about when he wrote what he did in Ephesians 6:10-18? I think it is the inevitable result of doing so, the product of "putting on the armor of God," but is not synonymous with doing so.

All this and more is necessary on the cutting edge of the Kingdom where territory is being taken for Christ.

The "cutting edge of the Kingdom"? That's a rather...self-flattering description. Actually, I'm not sure what you mean by "cutting edge," exactly. The battle against the flesh and World is just as hot, and just as vital, as the battle against the devil and his demons.

So on the one hand we have completeness in Heaven
as we read in 1 Peter 1
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Yet also we walk in imperfection and faith contesting, in Jesus, with powers of destruction.

I know of no place in Scripture that uses the phrase "completeness in Heaven." We are complete in Christ, however:

Colossians 2:6-9
6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And you are complete in him...

In any case, there is a disjunction between our spiritual position in Christ and our daily, practical condition. Spiritual growth and maturity is, essentially, reflecting the former more fully in the latter. This growth is predicated, though, upon knowledge, the exercise of faith, and submission to God. "The me I see is the me I'll be." Only as I know who I am in Christ, and, by faith, live in the truth of my spiritual position in him is the reality of that position reflected in my daily condition.

So I dismiss the claim that we are perfected already and are not to be part of a battle being fought.

However I may have misunderstood you...

Yup. I think you have. See above.

 

[Carl Emerson]

@aiki

Thanks for your response.

I will do my best to respond.

I'm not confused about what is mine in Christ...

Yes but you also refer to a practical sanctification and the two seem to cross over somewhat.

In what "place of sanctification," exactly? And sanctification of what sort? The perfect, spiritual sanctification all believers possess in Christ Jesus? Or the practical sanctification of one's condition, one's daily living, over time in reflection of one's spiritual position of perfect sanctification in Christ?

In this case I refer to the second one.

What does it mean to be "in that place of sanctification"? Do you believe you can stand before God in your practical, mundane condition without need for further sanctification? And do you think this degree of sanctification is always necessary for dealing with demonic oppression/possession situations? In other words, do you think perfect sanctification in your actual, daily living is necessary to successfully overcoming the demonic in someone else's life? Doesn't that put the onus for their freedom from the demonic on you, rather than Christ? And how do you know you've arrived in your common living at such a state of sanctification?

Do you believe you can stand before God in your practical, mundane condition without need for further sanctification?
Questions like that are not really helpful and are disingenuous.

Do you think this degree of sanctification is always necessary for dealing with demonic oppression/possession situations.
If you have unconfessed sin you are vulnerable to spiritual opposition.

Do you think perfect sanctification in your actual, daily living is necessary to successfully overcoming the demonic in someone else's life?
No because 'perfect sanctification' is not possible in this life.

There is a difference between not dealing with known sin, and not being aware of sin.

Are you advocating that believers should engage in opposing the demonic in others lives regardless of their own spiritual state ?

Jesus spoke of preparation before dealing with the demonic here...

Mark 9:28-30 KJV
28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

Well, as I already pointed out, every genuine born-again believer has been wearing the "armour of God," who is Christ

Here we must agree to disagree.

The Greek for 'put on' in Ephesians 6 is ενδυσασθε. this is an action - something we are required to do.

The "cutting edge of the Kingdom"? That's a rather...self-flattering description. Actually, I'm not sure what you mean by "cutting edge," exactly.

I was called to inner city evangelism and we had an open home and a 24 hour drop in centre for at risk youth.

In this spiritual environment the power encounter between light and dark is a little more intense than what one usually encounters in the church.

You can read my testimony here...

Jesus's Ministry

You don't get involved in this arena of service for selfish reasons.