The Blessed Hope

iamthelordsforever said:

If trends hold true, then this forum actually proves the opposite is true. How many posts have been posted denouncing the truth? I have only seen two or three other pretribber in the entire forum. I'm sorry, what facts are you looking at.

Click to expand...

I'm talking about the world, not this forum. There are many pre-tribbers here btw. You do NOT need to "spread the word" of pre-trib.

Handmaid for Jesus said in post 68:

I believe our Lord keeps His promises.

Click to expand...

Amen.

But note that he never promised a pre-tribulation rapture.

He said He was going away to prepare a place for us, and that He was coming again to receive us unto Himself that we may be with Him in that place that He has prepared.

Click to expand...

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he's not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be at his second coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), on his way down to the present earth at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and other events are over (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the bodily resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

The church has already come to the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to the Father's house when they die, for their souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

Now, as the church is the bride and body of Jesus Christ, it makes sense to me that He will remove us from the wrath to come.

Click to expand...

Regarding "the wrath to come" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), that refers to the same wrath as 1 Thessalonians 5:9. And 1 Thes. 5:9 refers to only that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (Jn. 3:36). Saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which does not affect their salvation (Rev. 12:17, Rev. 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain (Philip. 1:21,23; 2 Cor. 5:8). Also, 1 Thes. 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thes. 5:9b).

Nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thes. 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, Rev. 14:12-13, Rev. 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil men and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

But some are wise and some are foolish.

Click to expand...

The ten virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus will not occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage will not occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his second coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

I challenge all of us to fill our lamps and have extra on the side, for we know not the day nor the hour that the bridegroom is coming.

Click to expand...

Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying will not happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers do not watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the second coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he does not say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at some point in the future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the second coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

It could happen today.

Click to expand...

Jesus' return couldn't happen today, for he won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Interplanner said in post 43:

JUst re-read them closely and ask: what was paul trying to solve here, and why did th ey have the misunderstandings they had?

Click to expand...

Regarding the "here" of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, while it's most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which will not happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21), Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, was not so much countering pre-trib rapturism as full preterism, which mistakenly says that the day of the Lord/Christ is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2) (in the sense of already present), that the second coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already past (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-trib rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all have originated from the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24. For these five views of preterism, historicism, pre-trib rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it will not have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD. Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (for example, during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-trib rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the third heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (for example, Matthew 6:24), or is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some in the church completely unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, the church need not fear this (compare 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it will not rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

*******

Interplanner said in post 31:

The first thing to figure out is how the answers to the disciples questions were true in the immediate, 1st century setting, which is where any normal reading of the answers would go.

Click to expand...

Just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). These details have never been fulfilled. Also, Jesus' second coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the second temple building) in 70 AD did not fulfill Matthew 24:2, for the stones of the second temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 was not referring to only the single second temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire second-temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire second-temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamthelordsforever said in post 32:

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36)

Click to expand...

Luke 21:36 does not require a pre-tribulation rapture, for some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1), and others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which will not occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

zeke37 said in post 34:

the air is not atmosphere

Click to expand...

If you mean it's spirit, 1 Thes. 4:17's "air" will be the literal air, like the air in 1 Cor. 9:26, 1 Cor. 14:9, and Acts 22:23 is the literal air, but it will be up in the sky (as high as the clouds), like the air in Rev. 9:2, and Rev. 16:17 will be the literal air up in the sky. The church won't be changed into spirit at Jesus' second coming, but resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal flesh and bone bodies like Jesus was resurrected into (Lk. 24:39, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, Philip. 3:21, Rom. 8:23-25). Also, Paul doesn't refer to the "air" in 1 Cor. 15, and nothing there (or anywhere else) requires that he was using "air" in 1 Thes. 4:17 as a synonym for spirit.

The purpose of the rapture (catching up) isn't to change the bodies of living believers into immortal bodies, but to "catch up" both their changed bodies and the just-resurrected bodies of dead believers into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17). So the changed living believers will be raptured (caught up) "together with them" (1 Thes. 4:17), that is, together with the just-resurrected dead believers (1 Thes. 4:16b-17).

zeke37 said in post 34:

read the 7th trump's descriptions and it seems like He's here then, and the dead are raised.

Click to expand...

Jesus' second coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's seventh trumpet and the declaration of the replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (compare Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time this house gets sold"; this doesn't mean it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the seventh trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, it won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the second coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin at the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36), and Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' second coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, compare Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the seventh trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (compare Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' second coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time", for the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for some two thousand years.

it being wrath time, shows that He is here to pour it

Click to expand...

It says that "seven angels" will pour the wrath of Revelation 16, not Jesus, who won't yet have returned (Revelation 16:15).

Imo 1-2-3 heavens speaks of the ages....
before, present, future

Click to expand...

The three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b) aren't three times, but three places, which all exist in the past, present, and future. For the first heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The second heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it's beyond outer space, in a higher (i.e. a fourth) spatial dimension. And it's a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the two witnesses will be taken "up" there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the third heaven, there's currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16) which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is "above" (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then he will come "down" in New Jerusalem from the third heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It's New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) that people ascribe to "heaven". So what people think of as "heaven", in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently, the third heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the third heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

zeke37 said in post 34:

[1 Cor. 15]
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Click to expand...

Again, when obedient believers' bodies will be raised/resurrected into spiritual/heavenly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44-49), they will still be fleshly bodies, but no longer "natural" (that is, no longer mortal) fleshly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44,53). Instead, they will be immortal fleshly bodies like Jesus was raised/resurrected into (Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25) by the spiritual/heavenly power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11,23-25, Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 15:44).

[1 Cor. 15]
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 15:50 refers to people in mortal/corruptible, flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to people in immortal/incorruptible, resurrection, "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it), like Jesus was resurrected into (Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies won't inherit the eternal (as opposed to the millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which will be on the new earth in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom. For the elect Jews who won't become believers until Jesus' second coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become believers before the second coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom, that is, without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house and stay there for a while without ever inheriting that house, so people in their mortal bodies could enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom without ever inheriting it. For the people left alive at the second coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who won't get saved at that time will enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom in their mortal bodies. But they won't inherit it, for they will instead be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the third-heaven aspect of the kingdom, that is, without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, the two witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, for example, the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of believers into immortal bodies won't happen until Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until after the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the two witnesses will ascend "up" to the third heaven in their mortal bodies, it doesn't say that they will inherit the third heaven, just as when Paul says that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken to the third heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he doesn't say that he inherited the third heaven, and just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken to the third heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it doesn't say that they inherited the third heaven.

zeke37 said in post 34:

do the righteous come with Him at His Coming or not?

Click to expand...

They do. 1 Thes. 3:13, like 1 Thes. 4:14-17, refers to Jesus' second coming, when the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the third heaven with Jesus (1 Thes. 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thes. 4:16). Then they and all believers who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up together as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thes. 4:17, 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:29-31). It's because of this second coming rapture into the sky (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Rev. 19:7-8, Mt. 25:1-12) that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Rev. 19:14, Rev. 17:14, Zech. 14:5c,4).

if so, then the clouds that Paul speaks of are not literal clouds.

Click to expand...

Based on what logic?

remember that every eye shall see Him coming...
no hiding His Glory behind rain clouds...

Click to expand...

Who has said that his second-coming glory will be hidden by literal clouds? At his second coming, Jesus will be literally seen in literal clouds (Rev. 1:7, Mt. 24:30), just as lightning is seen in literal clouds (Mt. 24:27).

see the 6th seal...folks see Him Coming and try to hide in mountains from His wrath

Click to expand...

Note that no part of the 6th seal says that "folks see Him Coming". Even the "face of him that sitteth on the throne" part of Revelation 6:16 is not the world actually seeing the face of God sitting on the throne in the third heaven (Revelation 4:2), but the world expressing its fear of dying during or immediately after the sixth seal event. For seeing the face of God means death (Exodus 33:20).

The sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in the future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

the wedding feast is on earth...

Click to expand...

That's right. The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) has not yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which will not occur until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24. For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after Jesus' second coming and the resurrection and marriage of the church at that time (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the armies of the unsaved world defeated at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

I don't believe the beast can literally kill anyone

Click to expand...

Why not, and even by beheading (Revelation 20:4-6)?

bibletruth469 said in post 28:

Why does it say" comfort one another with these words" . . .

Click to expand...

1 Thes. 4:18's comfort is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, but their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his second coming and their bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thes. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, Rev. 19:7 to 20:6). Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thes. 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thes. 5:10-11). Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God, even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Cor. 1:3-7; 1 Pet. 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, Rev. 14:12-13, Rev. 20:4-6), waiting for Jesus' second coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7 to 20:6).

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and his servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14-15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But Job remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was completed, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3), and giving him the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against Job, for Job was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians will not be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, compare Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job did not love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all of his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when God allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) to make war against Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all of their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust God that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians must not love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians must not love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians must not love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

bibletruth469 said in post 28:

Why does it say" comfort one another with these words" 1 thes 4, if we are looking for the tribulation instead of our blessed hope!

Click to expand...

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' second coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; compare 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She is not hoping for her birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

bibletruth469 said in post 28:

The 2nd coming and the rapture are 2 different events.

Click to expand...

The rapture won't occur until the second coming. For it's only at Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) that the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), and not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

bibletruth469 said in post 28:

More on the elect and who they are later.

Click to expand...

The entire church is the elect (Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2). For the elect are all those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

iamthelordsforever said:

Yes I do. As the true Word of God, it is a requirement that I speak the truth

Click to expand...

As I said before, this is conflating your particular interpretation with "the true word of God" and "what the Bible plainly says." This is a not uncommon tactic used at CF and especially in the Eschatology forum.

iamthelordsforever said:

The Blessed Hope

Click to expand...

The Blessed Poop...this thread belongs in the crapper.

iamthelordsforever said:

My greatest wish is that people would accept the truth of His coming.

Click to expand...

We do accept it, we await it, we desire it.

iamthelordsforever said:

<snip>If you take all of the posts posted on these forums and ask some one to identify the pretribbers and posttribbers, 9 out of 10 times even someone not educated in eschatology could do it. This is because posttribbers use malice, venom, ganging up, and defilement of someone's character to chase them away. You are wasting your time if that is your goal. I am Spirit-led and on a mission.

Click to expand...

I consider myself neither a pretribber or a posttribber; only a simple amillennialist.

the trib is not a punishment from God
the wrath is, and that follows the trib

Bible2;63020247]

They can be heaven by dying (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Click to expand...

There would be no need to say "under the earth" if that was the case. John would only say.....no man in heaven or in earth. Since he said under the earth, he would be referring to those that had died. The fact we see men in heaven show us that a rapture has occurred.
Rev 5
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

The rapture won't happen until the second coming. For it's only at Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) that the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), and not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Click to expand...

Instead of just posting a bunch of verse numbers. Why not post the verses so I can easily tear your argument apart without having to look everything up. Your argument makes no sense because we have a great multitude in heaven.......and they come out of heaven as the army of God. The views you are posting can be easily proven as incorrect.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Matthew 24:31 is both, and it's after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

Click to expand...

Sorry..........like the days of Noah for the church and like the days of Lot at the end of Jacobs trouble.

Note that no verse requires a pre-trib rapture, or a secret coming of Jesus. And the gathering is the rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31; 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Click to expand...

Which rapture is the question. The one at the trump of God or the one at the last trump. The one on Pentecost or the one on the Feast of Trumpets. The one that occurs when it is like the days of Noah or the one that occurs like the days of Lot. The one that is secret or the one when all eyes will see the coming of the Lord.

It was the day of the Flood (Genesis 7:11-13, Luke 17:27).



That doesn't say that Noah entered the ark (for the last time) seven days before the Flood. It just means that he spent the seven days before the Flood loading the animals onto the ark.

Click to expand...

My Bible says in the same self day......they and EVERY BEAST went into the ark. It can't happen in seven days if in the same self day Noah, his family and EVERY BEAST enter the ark. It happens in one day.

Face it......The ark door is shut by God and they are in the ark 7 days before the flood.

Gen 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

What verses are you thinking of?

Click to expand...

I am thinking of the fulfillment of the 7 feasts.

Hi MarkR, do you say 'amill' but really mean 'post-mill'? Ie, the period described is current with a 'little while' of rebellion at the end. IT commenced when Christ was enthroned, Acts 2. Read some of Ebedmelech's posts here for more on the 'millenium' to describe the current period of history. THis was the position of many Reformation thinkers including HAndel (the composer), RAmm, Dr. Schaeffer (L'ABri), Buchanan (historian of reformation), Packer, Stott, Spurgeon, to mention a few. It is not full preterist of course, which denies a 2nd coming. It is very Nicene. It is not futurist; no prophetic significance to modern Israel.

iamthelordsforever said:

No, the tribulation is both a punishment and a mercy.

Click to expand...

it is Satan's wrath.... Rev12, particularly the last verse
where he wars with Christians

It is a punishment to those who blaspheme the True God

Click to expand...

the ones who blaspheme the true God, are at the top of the beast's system...
how is it you think they get punished during the trib?
the bible teaches that they are rewarded from the beast in that time
not punnished

their punishment does not start until the 7th trump sounds
which ends the trib
then the wrath of God begins,
and yep, they'll get punished then, after the trib, with the wrath of God

probably lasts 10 days

and it is a mercy because it shakes those who are still destined for eternal life loose from their security and gives them another chance to repent and accept Christ.

Click to expand...

well there is no pre trib rapture
the test is for Christians...who will you worship??...
will you worship the first Jesus on the scene, who is the false Christ,
or will you be faithful, wait till the end, and worship the true Christ at His Coming,
which is after the tribulation of those days

imo the vast majority of Christians will be seduced and worship the false Christ,
actually thinking that he is Jesus

that's the test.

I refuse to believe that God, who loves us more than any of us can fathom, would send worldwide plagues, famine, wars, death, destruction, earthquakes, meteorites, comets, hail, demons, and many other things to hurt me if I was one of His children.

Click to expand...

those things have always happened...getting worse as time goes on, labour pains and such

see Amos8 for what the famine in the end times is actually about.

believers have always been right in the middle of all those things.
do u think there were no believers killed in the boxing day Tsunami or 911 or any other calamity?
didn't Christ teach on that very thing, when the tower fell and killed a bunch of Jews?

weren't the prophets of the OT, and disciples and untold thousands of Christians
martyred for Him and the Word of God?
did they get raptured?

no, they await the first Resurrection. Rev20 specifically

and the rapture is part of that first Resurrection,
occurring right after they are brought back from heaven and raised here

the first Resurrection occurs AFTER the time of the beast's reign
as beast opponents are a part of it

It is one thing for us to suffer persecution at the hands of man, it is entirely another thing for God to persecute us.

Click to expand...

and the trib is NOT His wrath.
see Rev19, and pay attention
even u, a pre tribber, will conclude that Rev19 shows His 2nd Coming.
and right there in Rev 19, we read that Christ is coming
and He still has the wrath of God with Him