The biggest obstacle that keeps you from theism?

Elioenai26 · Jan 20, 2013

As the title states:

1. For those that are non-theists, including atheists, ignostics, agnostics, anti-theists, apatheists etc. etc., what is the single biggest obstacle for you in being a theist?

2. If this biggest obstacle, question, complaint, etc. etc. could be addressed either partly or completely, is it rational to think that any other questions or obstacles, or complaints could be addressed that you may have which is hindering you from affirming the existence of God?

3. Is this obstacle, question, complaint volitional or intellectual in nature?

4. If God exists, do you think there would be evidence of His existence?

5. If God exists, do you think He would reveal Himself to us or desire to have a relationship with us?

6. What is your understanding of the concept "God"?

7. If you were given sufficient evidence that Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

Eudaimonist · Jan 20, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
As the title states:

1. For those that are non-theists, including atheists, ignostics, agnostics, anti-theists, apatheists etc. etc., what is the single biggest obstacle for you in being a theist?

Reality.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Davian · Jan 20, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
As the title states:

1. For those that are non-theists, including atheists, ignostics, agnostics, anti-theists, apatheists etc. etc., what is the single biggest obstacle for you in being a theist?
<snip>

The inability of theists to substantiate their claims.

Elioenai26 · Jan 20, 2013

Davian said:
The inability of theists to substantiate their claims.

Thank you for the response. Do you have any comments regarding the rest of the questions?

Davian · Jan 20, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
Thank you for the response. Do you have any comments regarding the rest of the questions?

I do, but I felt that you would ignore them as you did my other recent responses and questions.

Elioenai26 · Jan 20, 2013

Davian said:
I do, but I felt that you would ignore them as you did my other recent responses and questions.

Ok, thanks.

SithDoughnut · Jan 20, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
1. For those that are non-theists, including atheists, ignostics, agnostics, anti-theists, apatheists etc. etc., what is the single biggest obstacle for you in being a theist?

Lack of any reason to rationally conclude that God exists.

2. If this biggest obstacle, question, complaint, etc. etc. could be addressed either partly or completely, is it rational to think that any other questions or obstacles, or complaints could be addressed that you may have which is hindering you from affirming the existence of God?

My "obstacles" can potentially be addressed, or at least I have no reason to assume that they can't.

3. Is this obstacle, question, complaint volitional or intellectual in nature?

Intellectual, I suppose.

4. If God exists, do you think there would be evidence of His existence?

Depends on the god. A literal Biblical God would leave evidence. A deistic god may not.

5. If God exists, do you think He would reveal Himself to us or desire to have a relationship with us?

The two actions are not mutually exclusive. Relationships are not based upon trying to find someone before you know they exist.

6. What is your understanding of the concept "God"?

Supernatural entity, generally considered to be either a great or greatest being. Can exist either alone or in a pantheon. Has control over part or all of the universe - often considered to be the creator of whatever domain it controls.

7. If you were given sufficient evidence that Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

Yes.

Eight Foot Manchild · Jan 20, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
1. For those that are non-theists, including atheists, ignostics, agnostics, anti-theists, apatheists etc. etc., what is the single biggest obstacle for you in being a theist?

The fact that I have basic reasoning skills, and know how to use them.

Elioenai26 said:
2. If this biggest obstacle, question, complaint, etc. etc. could be addressed either partly or completely, is it rational to think that any other questions or obstacles, or complaints could be addressed that you may have which is hindering you from affirming the existence of God?

No, it is not rational to think that. 'Truth by proximity' is a logical fallacy.

Elioenai26 said:
3. Is this obstacle, question, complaint volitional or intellectual in nature?

It's innate.

Elioenai26 said:
4. If God exists, do you think there would be evidence of His existence?

If it's a god that purportedly manifests in nature, such as the Yahweh, then yes.

If it does not manifest in nature, then it is indistinguishable from a non-existent god.

Unless you want to formulate a reliable 'supernatural' epistemology by which information about this 'god' can be discerned, without stealing from any natural epistemology.

Elioenai26 said:
5. If God exists, do you think He would reveal Himself to us or desire to have a relationship with us?

If it's a god that purportedly has those characteristics, such as Yahweh, then yes.

Elioenai26 said:
6. What is your understanding of the concept "God"?

Gods are as varied as the imaginations of the believers who invent them. This is precisely why Christian bullies tend to believe in a Yahweh who's a bully, why liberal hippie Christians believe in a Yahweh who's a liberal hippie, why Muslim terrorists believe in an Allah who's a terrorist, etc.

That's my concept - 'god' is an anthropomorphized and deified imagination.

Elioenai26 said:
7. If you were given sufficient evidence that Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

No.

madaz · Jan 20, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
As the title states:

1. For those that are non-theists, including atheists, ignostics, agnostics, anti-theists, apatheists etc. etc., what is the single biggest obstacle for you in being a theist?

Common sense.

Elioenai26 said:
2. If this biggest obstacle, question, complaint, etc. etc. could be addressed either partly or completely, is it rational to think that any other questions or obstacles, or complaints could be addressed that you may have which is hindering you from affirming the existence of God?

There needs to be a reason to believe first, I see absolutely no reason to believe she exists, so why believe?

Elioenai26 said:
3. Is this obstacle, question, complaint volitional or intellectual in nature?

The path of atheism is unobstructed so I think you may be confused, it is the path of theism that is obstructed, obstructions like truth, reality and reason just to name a few of them.

Elioenai26 said:
4. If God exists, do you think there would be evidence of His existence?

It would be a reasonable expectation to have evidence of her existence yes.

Elioenai26 said:
5. If God exists, do you think He would reveal Himself to us or desire to have a relationship with us?

No, I would expect her to have better things to attend to than to have personal relationships with insignificant primates on an insignificant planet out on the edge of an relatively insignificant galaxy.

Elioenai26 said:
6. What is your understanding of the concept "God"?

A legacy of primitive human imagination.

Elioenai26 said:
7. If you were given sufficient evidence that Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

Very very unlikely, the Christian god would have a lot of explaining and apologizing to do before I would even consider ever becoming a Christian again.

quatona · Jan 20, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
The biggest obstacle that keeps you from theism?

The fact that adding the idea of a "supernatural" entity to my concepts wouldn´t explain anything better to me than it can be explained without it. I´m not a great fan of exceptional claims, particularly not when they are unnecessary.

7. If you were given sufficient evidence that Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

I would believe in the existence of any god for which I am given sufficient evidence.

Paradoxum · Jan 20, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
As the title states:

1. For those that are non-theists, including atheists, ignostics, agnostics, anti-theists, apatheists etc. etc., what is the single biggest obstacle for you in being a theist?

I think psychology was one of the big factors in my loss of faith. I thought that the only way I could be wrong about God being real, was if the world wasn't real. But if one realises that one might be wearing theist-tinted glasses, it leads to one thinking that perhaps the world looks different with the glasses on.

What if healings are caused by placebo, religious experiences are self caused, and prophecy is luck (and skill?). What if many people believe for social and emotional reasons, rather than because they are intellectually convinced.

But the problem with intellectual reasons is that they aren't open to all people at all times. They tend to be made up after the belief, rather than prior to, and leading to it.

2. If this biggest obstacle, question, complaint, etc. etc. could be addressed either partly or completely, is it rational to think that any other questions or obstacles, or complaints could be addressed that you may have which is hindering you from affirming the existence of God?

It isn't so much that there is an obstacle stopping me. I don't believe because the evidence doesn't convince me. I need reasons... though I know all the normal reasons to believe.

3. Is this obstacle, question, complaint volitional or intellectual in nature?

What do you mean?

4. If God exists, do you think there would be evidence of His existence?

Not necessarily. The best evidence would be God appearing to more than one person at a time. Then He would have to continue to show Himself to be there, and try to prove that he isn't a trick by advanced aliens.

5. If God exists, do you think He would reveal Himself to us or desire to have a relationship with us?

Maybe, maybe not. I like the Christian God though.

6. What is your understanding of the concept "God"?

An objective (and therefore moral) being which is timeless and spaceless. It has the power to actualize potentials. All existence is contained within it, and is therefore omniscient. It values conscious beings, especially self-conscious ones (eg; humans). From out point of view, it could be called a loving Father.

7. If you were given sufficient evidence that Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

Maybe, but humans do strange things.

Sectio Aureo · Jan 21, 2013

You are making the assumption that theism is a desirable goal so your question is rather akin to asking a football player what is the obstacle that keeps you from playing Pétanque.

First of all that someone must have an interest or reason to play Pétanque before any obstacles to that goal are apparent.

KCfromNC · Jan 21, 2013

I'm not sure about that. I really don't have any interest in believing that death or taxes are unavoidable, and yet I do due to the overwhelming evidence in their favor. Same idea with believing in god(s) - if there were sufficient evidence it wouldn't matter if I were interested in believing or not.

In this case, though, there's a total lack of evidence and reason to believe, so I don't. But it's not the lack of interest that's keeping me from believing here.

Now sure, even if there was evidence it wouldn't mean I'd give up my whole life for this idea (kind of like just because I know taxes exist it doesn't compel me to become a CPA). But for simple questions of belief, I'm not sure how much lack of interest in the subject plays a part.

Ken-1122 · Jan 21, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
As the title states:

1. For those that are non-theists, including atheists, ignostics, agnostics, anti-theists, apatheists etc. etc., what is the single biggest obstacle for you in being a theist?

2. If this biggest obstacle, question, complaint, etc. etc. could be addressed either partly or completely, is it rational to think that any other questions or obstacles, or complaints could be addressed that you may have which is hindering you from affirming the existence of God?

3. Is this obstacle, question, complaint volitional or intellectual in nature?

4. If God exists, do you think there would be evidence of His existence?

5. If God exists, do you think He would reveal Himself to us or desire to have a relationship with us?

6. What is your understanding of the concept "God"?

7. If you were given sufficient evidence that Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

1. Lack of evidence
2. Yes
3. Intellectual
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. Creator of all; sorta as described in the bible
7. Yes; probably out of fear.

Ken

Eudaimonist · Jan 21, 2013

Continued...

Elioenai26 said:
2. If this biggest obstacle, question, complaint, etc. etc. could be addressed either partly or completely, is it rational to think that any other questions or obstacles, or complaints could be addressed that you may have which is hindering you from affirming the existence of God?

No, being able to address one issue doesn't mean that other issues can or would be adequately addressed. I would have no rational basis for forming such a conclusion.

3. Is this obstacle, question, complaint volitional or intellectual in nature?

The "obstacle" I had mentioned earlier was reality. God's nonexistence would, of course, be the most significant "obstacle" to my belief, just as a round Earth is an "obstacle" to my belief in a flat Earth. But we may call the lack of convincing argument or evidence for the existence of God a related "obstacle", and that is certainly intellectual in nature.

4. If God exists, do you think there would be evidence of His existence?

Not necessarily.

5. If God exists, do you think He would reveal Himself to us or desire to have a relationship with us?

Not necessarily.

Perhaps God is like Aristotle's Prime Mover or the Epicurean gods, who are rational beings, complete in themselves, that merely contemplate their own wisdom, and have no need or desire to have a relationship with us.

6. What is your understanding of the concept "God"?

In essence, a supernatural and conscious creator and/or orderer of the natural universe.

7. If you were given sufficient evidence that Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

Not necessarily.

I would believe that the Christian God exists, but I would not necessarily become a Christian, if that means a follower of Christ. It depends on just how much my worldview changes. It's possible that I would become an apatheist (not caring if a God exists and sticking to my own principles) or a maltheist (viewing God as evil and not worthy of worship).

eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist · Jan 21, 2013

Sectio Aureo said:
You are making the assumption that theism is a desirable goal so your question is rather akin to asking a football player what is the obstacle that keeps you from playing Pétanque.

First of all that someone must have an interest or reason to play Pétanque before any obstacles to that goal are apparent.

Yeah, I hate the wording of these questions. So, what is your obstacle to becoming a flat earther?

eudaimonia,

Mark

Freodin · Jan 21, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
As the title states:

1. For those that are non-theists, including atheists, ignostics, agnostics, anti-theists, apatheists etc. etc., what is the single biggest obstacle for you in being a theist?

Let's call it "lack of sufficient evidence".

2. If this biggest obstacle, question, complaint, etc. etc. could be addressed either partly or completely, is it rational to think that any other questions or obstacles, or complaints could be addressed that you may have which is hindering you from affirming the existence of God?

Possibly... but as far as I have observed, the "biggest obstacle" is rather big indeed.

3. Is this obstacle, question, complaint volitional or intellectual in nature?

Intellectual and personal.

4. If God exists, do you think there would be evidence of His existence?

Not necessarily, but likely.

5. If God exists, do you think He would reveal Himself to us or desire to have a relationship with us?

Not necessarily. There are a lot of possibilities for an existing god that wouldn't.

6. What is your understanding of the concept "God"?

I base my understanding of the concept "God" on what I am presented with, and then decide whether I consider the evidence for the actual existence of this concept to be sufficient.

7. If you were given sufficient evidence that Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

Yes, definitly. Contrary to what Eudaimonist said in his answers, I'd say that the truth of Christianity would include its claims to a necessity of belief as well as the inherent goodness of Christianity. I would feel compelled to follow it.

Now a counterquestion: can you offer any "sufficient evidence" that has not been presented before and was considerered not sufficient by the unbeliever?

jayem · Jan 21, 2013

1. Supernaturalism.

2. Proof of a supernatural god would need to come first. Then proof that this god had the attributes claimed by some particular religion.

3. Intellectual.

4. Yes. But that depends on the attributes of the specific god.

5. Again, that depends on what characteristics are claimed for this god.

6. Different faiths describe their gods differently. But in general, they are all entities existing outside the material universe. They are not a function of matter/energy and the fundamental forces of nature. Yet, they have the power to affect the behavior of matter/energy within the material universe.

7. Yes, assuming the evidence was sufficent and exclusive to Christianity. But if there was sufficient and exclusive evidence that an angel presented golden plates to Joseph Smith on which a new gospel was written, I'd become a Mormon. And if there was sufficient and exclusive evidence that Thetans occupy and command our physical bodies, then I'd become a Scientologist. Wouldn't you?

Going Merry · Jan 21, 2013

Usually when I have talked to atheists the claims they make for not believing I find to not be an issue. Reality? He is supernatural? There is evil in the world? evolution? prayer not being answered? Men wrote the bible? Reason? Contradictions? etc. And these are all just perspectives which I differ on and have reasons for why so and so doesn't happen using the same said word they discount. It's like I am using a material as a proof for my answers but their unbelief makes it not work out.

There really isn't much of a issue I guess.

There are a three different kinds of people
Those who see
Those who see when are shown
Those who do not see

I give up on someone over the first try.

Ana the Ist · Jan 21, 2013

Elioenai26 said:
As the title states:

1. For those that are non-theists, including atheists, ignostics, agnostics, anti-theists, apatheists etc. etc., what is the single biggest obstacle for you in being a theist?

2. If this biggest obstacle, question, complaint, etc. etc. could be addressed either partly or completely, is it rational to think that any other questions or obstacles, or complaints could be addressed that you may have which is hindering you from affirming the existence of God?

3. Is this obstacle, question, complaint volitional or intellectual in nature?

4. If God exists, do you think there would be evidence of His existence?

5. If God exists, do you think He would reveal Himself to us or desire to have a relationship with us?

6. What is your understanding of the concept "God"?

7. If you were given sufficient evidence that Christianity were true, would you become a Christian?

1. The lack of evidence for god.

2. Number 1 is really the biggest problem. If it could be addressed I suppose its possible other problems could be also.

3. Intellectual.

4. Yes. But supposing "no" I see no point to believing until evidence can be found.

5. Maybe? I don't see why god cannot reveal himself and have a relationship with mankind as well.

6. I don't understand "god" as a concept. All attempts to describe him are either logically unsound or inherently incomprehensible. E.g. "god exists outside of time"

7. Absolutely, if given sufficient evidence that any religion were true I would become a convert.

The biggest obstacle that keeps you from theism?

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