The big scary world of science

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Smidlee

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Does it sound plausible that your car runs by a series of explosions?
Not without intelligence. Throwing some gas anywhere in a car and lighten it with a match wouldn't produce much results. To get results you need an intelligent designed engine and transmission and tires and so on to force the energy to flow in a narrow path. The more narrow the path the energy flows through the more efficient the engine is and the more intelligence required. This is why some are putting a lot of effort and money in researching better efficient cars for the future since stuff like this doesn't just pop into existence.
So Evolution can easily handle the small stuff like explosions since it a lot easier to destroy something than creating it. Thank you for you most excellent example.
 
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Biblewriter

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I have been going back and forth with a microbiologist who holds a PhD and runs his own lab. He has many papers to his name and thinks that the young earth creationist are either dishonest or ignorant. He has yet to admit any of the "proof" in his field is "false". What is your education in? Also would you mind linking a few papers you have written? I would just like to get a sense of who you are and what you have a background in.

I also think that young earth creationists are seriously mistaken. I think their scientific arguments are extremely weak, and their scriptural arguments are simply incorrect. I have argued the scriptural evidence for old earth creationism in this forum on several occasions.

But be that as it may, I have a degree in Science and Mathematics. I know this sounds strange. I do not know even one other person who holds such a degree. But it was offered by the university I attended. (University of Kentucky, Murray branch) It involved advanced courses in Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Mathematics, with some courses Geology and Psychology.

I took this path because my real ambition was to be an Engineer, but that was not available at the University in my home town of Murray, Kentucky. I had no other university available because my father had four sons being educated at the same time, so we had to study in a location where we could live at home. We all went to Murray, and two of my brothers went on to medical school.

I studied on my own to learn enough to pass the required examinations to become a Registered Professional Engineer in the state of Ohio. Since I did not have an engineering degree I had to have six years of practical experience before I was allowed to take the tests. I worked as an engineer for many years. My particular field required me to do extensive research into many fields, as I was responsible for inventing solutions to unique problems brought to us by varied customers. Some of the more demanding assignments included designing machinery to operate inside a heat treating furnace, (it had to be able to operate continuously for years at a cherry red heat) to design machinery to operate inside a cryogenic refrigerator, (so cold that air turns into a liquid) to design machinery to operate in caustic baths, to design machinery to operate in salt solutions, and to design machinery to operate in acid baths. One machine I designed and built had elliptical gears, flexible gears, and an electric motor that contained no wires. I had to design electronic equipment that would operate reliably in harsh electrical environments involving repeated intense electrical surges and spikes. Before I retired I had so many patents in my name that I do not remember how many there were. I developed the world's first directly solvable equation that accurately describes the flow or fluids ranging from syrup creeping through a 1/4" cast iron pipe to water flowing at a hundred miles an hour through a ten foot pipe, and the world's first equation that accurately maps the performance curve of a centrifugal pump.

You will argue correctly that none of these involved evolutionary science, but all of this required intensive research into and practical application of information from a wide variety of scientific fields. It required the accurate application of scientific data and logic. If it was not done correctly, the equipment simply would not work.

I wrote two papers on evolution during my university studies. The first of these was a review of the statements of recognized experts challenging the accuracy the each of the various supposed "proofs" of evolution. This is what I referred to earlier in this discussion. Every alleged proof of evolution being offered at that time ( the 1960's) had been denounced as factually inaccurate by experts in that particular field. The second was a demonstration that there was no greater than a 50% percent chance that the ratio of mutations which was beneficial was any greater that one in ten thousand. The professor for whom I wrote the first paper read excerpts from it in all his classes. And the professor for whom I wrote the second called it "one of the best, if not the best" paper he had received in his entire teaching experience.

I do not say these things to brag, but to answer your question about who and what I am.
 
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Matthewj1985

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For what it's worth, Matthew, you're not allowed to contradict neocreationists in this subforum. If you want to challenge neocreationism or tout the merits of the evolutionary theory, you'll have to take it to the Origins Theology forum.

Just realized that, thanks.
 
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Matthewj1985

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I also think that young earth creationists are seriously mistaken. I think their scientific arguments are extremely weak, and their scriptural arguments are simply incorrect. I have argued the scriptural evidence for old earth creationism in this forum on several occasions.

But be that as it may, I have a degree in Science and Mathematics. I know this sounds strange. I do not know even one other person who holds such a degree. But it was offered by the university I attended. (University of Kentucky, Murray branch) It involved advanced courses in Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Mathematics, with some courses Geology and Psychology.

I took this path because my real ambition was to be an Engineer, but that was not available at the University in my home town of Murray, Kentucky. I had no other university available because my father had four sons being educated at the same time, so we had to study in a location where we could live at home. We all went to Murray, and two of my brothers went on to medical school.

I studied on my own to learn enough to pass the required examinations to become a Registered Professional Engineer in the state of Ohio. Since I did not have an engineering degree I had to have six years of practical experience before I was allowed to take the tests. I worked as an engineer for many years. My particular field required me to do extensive research into many fields, as I was responsible for inventing solutions to unique problems brought to us by varied customers. Some of the more demanding assignments included designing machinery to operate inside a heat treating furnace, (it had to be able to operate continuously for years at a cherry red heat) to design machinery to operate inside a cryogenic refrigerator, (so cold that air turns into a liquid) to design machinery to operate in caustic baths, to design machinery to operate in salt solutions, and to design machinery to operate in acid baths. One machine I designed and built had elliptical gears, flexible gears, and an electric motor that contained no wires. I had to design electronic equipment that would operate reliably in harsh electrical environments involving repeated intense electrical surges and spikes. Before I retired I had so many patents in my name that I do not remember how many there were. I developed the world's first directly solvable equation that accurately describes the flow or fluids ranging from syrup creeping through a 1/4" cast iron pipe to water flowing at a hundred miles an hour through a ten foot pipe, and the world's first equation that accurately maps the performance curve of a centrifugal pump.

You will argue correctly that none of these involved evolutionary science, but all of this required intensive research into and practical application of information from a wide variety of scientific fields. It required the accurate application of scientific data and logic. If it was not done correctly, the equipment simply would not work.

I wrote two papers on evolution during my university studies. The first of these was a review of the statements of recognized experts challenging the accuracy the each of the various supposed "proofs" of evolution. This is what I referred to earlier in this discussion. Every alleged proof of evolution being offered at that time ( the 1960's) had been denounced as factually inaccurate by experts in that particular field. The second was a demonstration that there was no greater than a 50% percent chance that the ratio of mutations which was beneficial was any greater that one in ten thousand. The professor for whom I wrote the first paper read excerpts from it in all his classes. And the professor for whom I wrote the second called it "one of the best, if not the best" paper he had received in his entire teaching experience.

I do not say these things to brag, but to answer your question about who and what I am.

That is what I was looking for, you are not bragging and you should be proud of your education. The point I was trying to make is that if you look at the modern ID movement there are a very small minority of people holding degrees in biology. I am not using the argument from authority here and saying that because they hold degrees you should believe what they do. I am pointing out that people pushing ID tend to not understand the concepts involved in biology. A great example would be Hovind constantly equating the Big Bang Theory to evolution. A religious equivalent would be saying that since Mohammad couldn't have possibly ridden a winged horse across the Arabian desert, then Jesus never really lived. These are two completely different religions and neither have any bearing on the other.

I am not going to argue here because I am obviously not allowed to but I stand by my point that almost all of those who reject science in favor religion do so because of a lack of understanding.

Thank you and have a great day.
 
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Biblewriter

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The point I was trying to make is that if you look at the modern ID movement there are a very small minority of people holding degrees in biology. I am not using the argument from authority here and saying that because they hold degrees you should believe what they do. I am pointing out that people pushing ID tend to not understand the concepts involved in biology.

I am not going to argue here because I am obviously not allowed to but I stand by my point that almost all of those who reject science in favor religion do so because of a lack of understanding.

Your reaction is typical of evolutionists. I specifically pointed out that I was educated in Biology, but you missed that one little detail because you were much more interested in the fact that I did not work in that field.

Intelligent design advocates may in some cases have a religious reason for their persuasion. I make no apology for the fact that I believe the Bible over anything and everything else.

But intelligent design is not based on religious belief. And there is not even one proven principle of Biology that is contradicted by the concept of intelligent design.

There are unsurmountable logical problems in evolutionary theory, not the least is the principle if irreducible complexity. If you can demonstrate a series of logical steps by which even one organ of even one organism could have gradually developed, you may have put a chink in this armor. But I do not know of even one organ of even one organism that could have developed as a series of gradual changes.

This is because evolutionary theory requires not only that natural selection retains useful features, it also rejects useless ones. You can't have one without the other.

So the various organs of the various organisms each had to suddenly appear in a sufficiently developed form to give its owners a distinct reproductive advantage. For this to have happened once would be fantastic. But the odds against it having happened again and again, over and over are absolutely prohibitive. This is one of the reasons why so few mathematicians are evolutionists.
 
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Matthewj1985

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Your reaction is typical of evolutionists. I specifically pointed out that I was educated in Biology, but you missed that one little detail because you were much more interested in the fact that I did not work in that field.

Intelligent design advocates may in some cases have a religious reason for their persuasion. I make no apology for the fact that I believe the Bible over anything and everything else.

But intelligent design is not based on religious belief. And there is not even one proven principle of Biology that is contradicted by the concept of intelligent design.

There are unsurmountable logical problems in evolutionary theory, not the least is the principle if irreducible complexity. If you can demonstrate a series of logical steps by which even one organ of even one organism could have gradually developed, you may have put a chink in this armor. But I do not know of even one organ of even one organism that could have developed as a series of gradual changes.

This is because evolutionary theory requires not only that natural selection retains useful features, it also rejects useless ones. You can't have one without the other.

So the various organs of the various organisms each had to suddenly appear in a sufficiently developed form to give its owners a distinct reproductive advantage. For this to have happened once would be fantastic. But the odds against it having happened again and again, over and over are absolutely prohibitive. This is one of the reasons why so few mathematicians are evolutionists.

If you would like to debate please make a thread in the appropriate forum and PM me a link. Just FYI, you might want to update your science education, Irreducible Complexity has been proved false so many times that I don't even think Behe uses it anymore.
 
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Montalban

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Irreducible Complexity has been proved false so many times that I don't even think Behe uses it anymore.

Well if you say so!:ahah:

So you're saying that there's nothing (by way of a 'system') that can't be reduced still further, and still be a 'system'?

So if I take a car, and take out the engine, it's still a working car?

I was so intrigued by your claims I looked at Wiki, which claims (footnote 31^ a b c A reducibly complex mousetrap (graphics-intensive, requires JavaScript)) that Behe's irreducible 'mousetrap' idea has been debunked by a John H. McDonald.

I was so underimpressed by his argument I e-mailed him with the following...
Sir,
I was looking at the animations in http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mousetrap.html. Your first mousetrap consists of a piece of wire, shaped so as to have a springy affect if the wire's ends are pressed closer together.

What draws the mouse to the trap?

What forces the trap to close upon the mouse?

What's the wire resting aginst (can't the mouse just make off, even with a wire trapped around it)?

What causes the wire to develop a spring in it for the second stage of the trap?

Who or what is determining that the trap is working so as to make changes?
 
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suzmot

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Why do you who are so confident in your ability to refute evolution hide away in this forum where supporters of evolution cannot post?

Come on over to the Creation & Evolution forum and present your case there. This whole sub-forum where you're arguing with no-one reminds me of a scene from Bloodsport: "Very good, but brick no hit back"
 
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Montalban

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Why do you who are so confident in your ability to refute evolution hide away in this forum where supporters of evolution cannot post?
Given that you yourself are posting here it would seem that you refute yourself.
 
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Montalban

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Why do you who are so confident in your ability to refute evolution hide away in this forum where supporters of evolution cannot post?

Come on over to the Creation & Evolution forum and present your case there. This whole sub-forum where you're arguing with no-one reminds me of a scene from Bloodsport: "Very good, but brick no hit back"

Can you provide a link to exactly what you want people to respond to?
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Some Christians...some religions are very much afraid of science. Just look at what the Roman Catholic Church did to Galileo.
Galileo was wrong.
God's word -never mind what the RC says, it is the Word of God that is the authority- states that the sun rises and sets, as the moon does, and that the sun, moon, and stars run their courses. The earth, OTOH, was created first, and is fixed on it's foundations, with the sun, moon and stars revolving around it.

The sun once stood still for about a day and once the sun went backwards for ten degrees, but always, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, running about and coming again, and it was not even made or set in it's orbit until the fourth day of creation, as the moon also was not.

We cannot get outside of our "fishbowl" to see what it is really like out there, but it is not what so called "scientists" say it is, when they deny all Truth as is written in the Word of God.
 
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suzmot

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Can you provide a link to exactly what you want people to respond to?

Nothing in particular, just asking for participation from the strong creationism supporters in the Creation / Evolution sub-forum.

I don't have enough posts to create a link to it, but it's forum #70 in the URL.

For example, "biblewriter" suggests Irreducible Complexity as a problem for Evolutionary theory, I think that would make a great topic over there and would give him an opportunity to showcase some of the "unsurmountable logical problems" he's familiar with - as an educated biologist no less.

Montalban said:
Given that you yourself are posting here it would seem that you refute yourself.

An excerpt from the Creationism forum guidelines:

"You must be registered as a creationist within your profile to debate in this subforum. If your posts are not in accordance with your profile, then your posts may be reported and removed."

I'd certainly be keen to see how your ideas hold water, but you'll have to come out to play. :)
 
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yeshuasavedme

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No, the Roman Catholic Church put Galileo on trial before the inquisition. The Roman Catholic Church was upset because Galileo was advocating that the earth moved around the sun and that the sun was the center of the solar system. This is referred to as heliocentricism. No credible scientist today will debate that fact. However at the time of his trial the Roman Catholic Church used Psalms 93:1, Psalms 96:10,Psalms 104:5, Ecclesiastes 1:5 and 1 Chronicles 16:30, as there "proof" that the earth was the center of the solar system and that the earth never moved. No one today believes this even the Roman Catholic Church knows it is not true. But they have never (as far as I am aware) issued an apology. We see the Roman Catholic Church today doing the same sort of thing with embryonic stem cell research. They have opposed science every step of the way for centuries. They do not seem to be willing to change now either.
Every true Bible Believer believes that God's Word is true from the beginning.
God states that the sun rises and sets, abnd states that fact many, many, many times. Never does God state that the earth revolves or goes around the sun.
Once, the sun stood still for almost a whole day, and once the sun went backwards ten degrees.
The earth is fixed in the heavens, from the beginning of it's creation, states God's Word.
I am not Roman Catholic, but you are wrong about Roman Catholics and Geocentrism.

http://www.catholicintl.com/products/books/gwwprint.htm
 
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Montalban

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An excerpt from the Creationism forum guidelines:

"You must be registered as a creationist within your profile to debate in this subforum. If your posts are not in accordance with your profile, then your posts may be reported and removed."

The guidelines don't say anything about 'posting' which is what the complaint was.

I know what you meant - but you didn't say that you said...
Why do you who are so confident in your ability to refute evolution hide away in this forum where supporters of evolution cannot post?

You can post, and you're a supporter of evolution, ergo, you refute yourself.

Next time word your whine a little better.

I'd certainly be keen to see how your ideas hold water, but you'll have to come out to play.
Give me a link to any. I'm not so versed with the Internet and can't find that thread. Chalk that up to point 1 for evolutionist savvy if you want.

If you're worried that it might breach guidelines, then PM me the link.
 
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Smidlee

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Every true Bible Believer believes that God's Word is true from the beginning.
God states that the sun rises and sets, abnd states that fact many, many, many times. Never does God state that the earth revolves or goes around the sun.
So does my calendar yet no one argues my calendar is wrong for stating what time the sun rises and sets for each day of the year. This is because my calender is written for people living down here on earth and not for someone who mind is up in space.
When someone leaves my home and states "they got to run" I understand (thanks God for given me some common sense) that they will be leaving in their car and won't be actually running down the street.

Also the bible states that God move the sun 10 degrees on the sun dial yet doesn't tell exactly how He did it. I believe it's more likely it was only a local miracle (thus just bend the light locally) and not actually turning the whole earth. The same with keeping the sun still could have also been a local miracle and not a world wide one.
 
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BobRyan

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Every true Bible Believer believes that God's Word is true from the beginning.
God states that the sun rises and sets, abnd states that fact many, many, many times. Never does God state that the earth revolves or goes around the sun.

Einstein said that motion can be scientifically discribed with respect to the frame of reference of the observer. Oh rats!! That means the bible is still true!!

Now what will all those christian groups do that have based their gospel on the idea that the Bible can not be trusted?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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