• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Biblical Hebrew Creation Account: New Numbers Tell (that it is a) Story ...

Status
Not open for further replies.

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
(moved from Creationism; original thread here: http://christianforums.com/t6666720...ation-account-new-numbers-tell-the-story.html )

And again - I wonder what that statistical analysis would do to, say, a Hebrew translation of the parable of the Prodigal Son.

In fact (and I may well overstep my bounds here) I think this study may well prove less than nothing. To my knowledge there is very little purely fictional or figurative poetry in the Hebrew Bible (excepting, perhaps, the Song of Solomon). Most of the time, a psalm that describes any kind of event describes a historical event: the Exodus, the conquering of Canaan, the exile. (Not one describes the process of creation - except for Psalm 104, which direly contradicts flood geology if it is interpreted that way.)

On the other hand, there is plenty of narrative that is purely fictional and figurative, and clearly intended to be taken that way. That is why I raised the earlier example of Daniel 1-6 and Daniel 7-12. Nobody reading the latter part seriously thinks that the author intended it to talk about actual animals - the animals are obviously code-words for various kingdoms and nations. Similarly, in Judges Jephthah tells a story which is entirely narrative and yet is completely a parable. And the story Nathan tells David after he has committed adultery with Bathsheba is obviously narrative and obviously fiction.

So. Almost no Hebrew poetry is really fictional; plenty of Hebrew narrative is clearly fictional and figurative. Guess which genre Genesis 1 falls into? ^^
 

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
(moved from Creationism; original thread here: http://christianforums.com/t6666720...ation-account-new-numbers-tell-the-story.html )

And again - I wonder what that statistical analysis would do to, say, a Hebrew translation of the parable of the Prodigal Son.

I don't know about a Hebrew translation, but that parable has been translated into Aramaic--which is the language Jesus would have first told it in---and it is very likely a poem in Aramaic.

Learned this in a bible study years ago. It is also possible that some of the other parables are poetry in Aramaic, but apparently the case is not as clear-cut as with the Prodigal Son.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is it my imagination or did they categorise Psalm 105 & 106 with the historical texts? Certainly from the graph these Psalm show the wide range of percentage you get for preterites in Hebrew poetry.

What do they mean by preterites anyway? Is it imperfect waw-consecutives? And how are preterites a separate category to the ones they label 'finite verbs' which seem to be perfect, waw-perfect, and imperfect.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ok I have been analysing Gen 1-2:3 and the figures come out close to the graph if you read 'preterites' as waw consecutive imperfects. The graph is a brute to read incidentally, no two lines are parallel, they don't give their numbers anywhere either.

Anyway as far as I can read from their graph they found
66% preterites
16.4% imperfect
14.3% perfect
2.2% waw perfect

I would be interested to know where they got what amounts to 2 waw perfects in this passage as I couldn't locate any.

Anyway my very unqualified Hebrew analysis and calculations show Gen 1-2:3 has
55 or 66% waw consecutive imperfect
15 or 18% imperfect
13 or 16% perfect
0 waw perfect

Which suggests that they do mean waw consecutive imperfect when they talk of preterites.

A little detail that is left out in these calculation is that of the 55 waw consecutive imperfects, 24 occur in the repetitions and choruses that are such a poetic feature of the text
and it was so
and God saw that it was good.
and there was morning and there was evening an nth day

Leave the choruses out and the waw consecutive imperfects drops to 53%, which is less than the (estimated from the graph) 55% preterites in psalms 105&106.

I suspect this whole mathematical analysis is nothing more than a reiteration of what was known all along, the waw consecutives are found more often in prose narrative than in poetry. Not that having waw consecutives means a passage isn't poetry, there are still plenty of poems that use them, they are just a small proportion of the Hebrew poetry we have. But throw in some mathematics and a limited random sample and you can construct a wonderful black swan type fallacy

I wonder if you could do an analysis of the colouration of corvids and swans and prove the Queen's black swans are really a species of crow?
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I had a look at the lamentation in Ezek 19, it is a poetry, a narrative poem, one that looks at the history of Israel and tells it as an allegory.

There are
20 (48%) waw consecutive imperfects
2 (5%) imperfects
20 (48%) perfects
0 waw perfects
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Psalm 136? I was wondering about that one, though in fact the the Hebrew skips out on using a verb in the chorus for his love for ever. But you would need to find one where the chorus translates as past tense.
The imperfect normally translates as future unless a waw (and) is tagged onto the start to form a waw consecutive.
Gen 28:3 God Almighty bless you יברך
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them ויברך
But you need to watch for pointing too, not all waws are waw consecutives. If you want to find them, look for one where the waw looks as if it has been underlined
וַיְבָרֶךְ

I think there may be another rarer pointing used to give waw consecutive, I will have to look it up, but suspect I may be well out of my depth.

You can find the pointed text here http://wlc.hebrewtanakh.com/genesis/1.htm if you don't have it. Also very handy are a Hebrew Old Testament with strongs numbers, and a KJV that has Strongs and TVM, tense voice mood (the only way I can identify Hebrew tenses).

If you Google: blessed 1288 8762
which is the strongs number for the word blessed and the verb form in Gen 1:22, you will come across a number of sites that seem to have the KJV with TVM, however I don't recognise any of the sites so it is buyer beware.
Similarly googling: 1288 ויברך
throws up some sites with the Hebrew OT strong linked.

I have it as a HOT+ module on e-sword, I also have KJV with TVM for e-sword but it was an unofficial module I picked up along the way, not on the e-sword site.

Psalm 136 only has a couple of waw consecutives and relies heavily on participles (which don't feature in Boyd's analysis) and the odd perfect tense.

Judges 9:8-14 is a good one though. It has quite high proportion of waw consecutive imperfects, which is surprising when 3/5 of it is reported speech instead of a narrative description of what the shrubs did.

There are
8 (44%) waw consecutive imperfects
3 (17%) imperfects
7 (39%) perfects
0 waw perfects
Very similar to Ezek 19.
 
Upvote 0

Xaero

Regular Member
Mar 2, 2005
195
13
✟22,890.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
(moved from Creationism; original thread here: http://christianforums.com/t6666720-...the-story.html )
i don't understand this statistical argument.

If a poem uses some writing style that is also used in literal events, then you cannot consider it as a poem?

I wonder if you could do an analysis of the colouration of corvids and swans and prove the Queen's black swans are really a species of crow?
yea, that sums it up quite nicely ;)
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.