The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

[crossnote]

Anyways, if you believe salvation is unconditional and does not require obedience on our part, then why does Acts of the Apostles 3:23 say this

Salvation produces obedience. Good works are a result of our salvation, not the cause.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation produces obedience. Good works are a result of our salvation, not the cause.

Then why do there appear to be conditional salvation verses that appear to contradict what you are saying here? Why say things like "IF..." that is tied to some action as being a part of our salvation?

Please go back to the OP and explain word for word what you think is happening in those verses.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Agreed. Doubt, and despair would be sins.
The Lord can help us to be faithful and overcome by His Word.

David says,
"Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You."
(Psalms 119:11) (NKJV).

Doubt is undoubtably my biggest problem with sin.

 

[crossnote]

This is not really the discussion of the topic. We are looking to address those verses (like in the OP) that appear to teach that salvation is conditional. These kinds of verses need to be explained by those like yourself who believe in Unconditional Salvation. So how do you explain the 3 verses in the OP from your viewpoint on salvation?

I was responding to BNRs post not the OP.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was responding to BNRs post not the OP.

I understand. But that is not the topic of the thread. I would prefer folks to stay on topic to the thread, and not to veer off point.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7) (NKJV).

Condition of Salvation: If we walk in the light as He is in the light.

_____________________________________________________________
“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

Condition of Salvation: If we hold from the beginning our confidence stedfast unto the end.

____________________________________________________________

21 "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister." (Colossians 1:21-23) (NKJV).

Condition of Salvation: If indeed you continue in the faith (verse 23).

The if.....is not conditional.
It is actual, in other words......if you are doing it.

 

[crossnote]

I understand. But that is not the topic of the thread. I would prefer folks to stay on topic to the thread, and not to veer off point.

I have already explained my position.
You will have to explain how salvation is described repeatedly as a free gift yet it is something we must earn through obedience. Misinterpretation will not help.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul already answers that objection...

Romans 3:7-8 KJV
[7] For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? [8] And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Here Paul teaches us that we cannot continue in sin using grace as an excuse. He says in verse 16 we are servants of the one whom we serve, either servants of righteousness resulting in life or servants of sin resulting in death.

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:1-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The if.....is not conditional.
It is actual, in other words......if you are doing it.

No. That would be disregarding basic language.

According to the Oxford Dictionary used by Google search on defining words, it says:

"If
/if/
conjunction
conjunction: if

1. (introducing a conditional clause) on the condition or supposition that; in the event that.
   "if you have a complaint, write to the director"
   synonyms: on condition that, provided (that), providing (that), presuming (that), supposing (that), assuming (that), on the assumption that, allowing (that), as long as, given that, with the provision/proviso that, with/on the understanding that, if and only if, contingent on, in the event that, allowing that
   "if the weather is fine, we can walk to the village"

 

[crossnote]

Here Paul teaches us that we cannot continue in sin using grace as an excuse. He says in verse 16 we are servants of the one whom we serve, either servants of righteousness resulting in life or servants of sin resulting in death.

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:1-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Actually he says, how can we continue in sin since we died to sin having been baptized into his death.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Actually he says, how can we continue in sin since we died to sin having been baptized into his death.

Just because one is IN the Kingdom of Christ now does not mean they are going to remain there. Sin obviously was the cause for Christ to send forth His angels to gather those who will be cast out of HIS KINGDOM into the furnace of fire (See Matthew 13:41-42). In any case: Please address the verses in the OP on why you think they are not talking conditionally. For me: These verses are clearly speaking in a conditional way in relation to salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Actually he says, how can we continue in sin since we died to sin having been baptized into his death.

If I said how could you hit your sister does that mean you are incapable of hitting your sister? So when Paul says how can you continue in sin is he saying we are incapable of continuing in sin? If that were the case then he wouldn’t have said

“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[crossnote]

Just because one is IN the Kingdom of Christ now does not mean they are going to remain there. Sin obviously was the cause for Christ to send forth His angels to gather those who will be cast out of HIS KINGDOM into the furnace of fire (See Matthew 13:41-42). In any case: Please address the verses in the OP on why you think they are not talking conditionally. For me: These verses are clearly speaking in a conditional way in relation to salvation.

I have already explained my position.
You will have to explain how salvation is described repeatedly as a free gift yet it is something we must earn through obedience. Misinterpretation will not help.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just because one is IN the Kingdom of Christ now does not mean they are going to remain there. Sin obviously was the cause for Christ to send forth His angels to gather those who will be cast out of HIS KINGDOM into the furnace of fire (See Matthew 13:41-42). In any case: Please address the verses in the OP on why you think they are not talking conditionally. For me: These verses are clearly speaking in a conditional way in relation to salvation.

Ephesians 5 is a perfect example of this. At the end of chapter 4 Paul indicates that he is speaking to believers who are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another. BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need. Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

He then continues on the same topic into chapter 5 warning these very same believers of turning to a sinful way of life which will result in receiving the wrath of God in the sons of disobedience and thus will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6 NASB

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have already explained my position.
You will have to explain how salvation is described repeatedly as a free gift yet it is something we must earn through obedience. Misinterpretation will not help.

No one is trying to earn salvation. That is a deception from satan who is the only one who wants us not to do good works that are pleasing to God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have already explained my position.
You will have to explain how salvation is described repeatedly as a free gift yet it is something we must earn through obedience. Misinterpretation will not help.

Read post 27 please

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have already explained my position.
You will have to explain how salvation is described repeatedly as a free gift yet it is something we must earn through obedience. Misinterpretation will not help.

You explained your position ignoring verse 12.

“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:12‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[redleghunter]

I can make the thread topic in any way I choose. The purpose of this thread is to show that the Bible does teach that salvation is conditional. If you believe that the 3 verses are quoted out of context, then by all means, show that this is the case. Do you have an alternative explanation to what these verses are truly saying so as to prove that they are not talking about conditional salvation?

Well they are out of context. Three verses from three different epistles in the New Testament. That's the very definition of "out of context." Now you want me to do your work in providing the exegesis of all three sources in context.

That is correct...You can make whatever OP you want. You can even provide three verses from three different epistles and three different writers and assert a statement to be true.

But I do agree with your assertion that the New Covenant is 'conditional' but for many other reasons. The New Covenant is conditional on the Blood of Jesus Christ. If he fails, we all fail. And He will never fail because cover to cover of the Bible is that God keeps every Promise He swears by. That's in Hebrews too, all over that epistle, but no one would know that reading your OP.

To highlight that the New Covenant is based on the will of God and Jesus Christ?

John 1: NASB

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.​

So really you have to prove that the will of God is thwarted in who becomes a child of God. Because clearly above this is not according to the will of the flesh (our will), nor of the will of man, But of God. And notice the language in verse 12. It does not say 'as many as accepted Him" but "as many as received Him."

 

[redleghunter]

John the Baptist was beheaded. James the brother of John was killed. Peter and Paul were killed.

Why do you think they were martyred?

 

[Al Touthentop]

The purpose of this thread is to show that the Bible does teach that salvation is conditional. If you believe that the 3 verses are quoted out of context, then by all means, show that this is the case. Do you have an alternative explanation to what these verses are truly saying so as to prove that they are not talking about conditional salvation?

I think though that the point must be made that when we're baptized and we receive remission of sins, that is itself a salvation - we are saved from our past sins - but it isn't the ultimate salvation which we seek to obtain by living our lives as Christ would have us do.

It's not over at that point and Paul points out in Philippians that he doesn't even consider himself, an apostle, to have obtained. Paul explicitly tells us that we have to finish the race. Jesus said that those who 'abided' or remained in him were those who won the prize, not those who failed to run.