The Bible is the Word of God?

[Bible Highlighter]

Please, understand this as a generic statement and not a personal slam:

I think we all, from time to time, get so lost "in the weeds" on bible study that we forget the general meaning of what we're reading. That is, we can't see the forest for the trees. I think "jot" and "tittle" have become nuances in the bark of a tree, and we're forgetting the meaning of the verse in question. IMO that meaning is that not even the most insignificant part of the law "will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished'. As long as we understand that "jot and tittle" refers to even "part's of letters of words", we're getting the point.

Nowhere was I suggesting that jots and tittles being Hebrew was the main point Jesus was trying to make in what He was saying in Matthew 5:18. I understand that Jesus' point was that not one detail shall not pass away from the Law and the Prophets until all of them are fulfilled. The Law of Moses was fulfilled upon the cross. Yet, the Prophets portion of the “Law and the Prophets” has yet to be fulfilled because there are many end times prophecies in the Old Testament that need to still be fulfilled. The Old Law was fulfilled upon the cross (Note: This does not mean there is no more Laws under the New Covenant). So yeah, I get the main point. But to say that Jesus quoted from the LXX is to ignore the Jewishness of Jesus Christ. Jesus said salvation was of the Jews and He told His disciples to not go into the way of the Gentiles. So Jesus was very Jewish. This is something you have to ignore in order to favor the LXX.

I really try to avoid violating 2 Timothy 2:23 and Titus 3:9, not to mention several other versus.

I have no idea what foolish questions you are referring to. Yes, Rahab (who was a Gentile) was in the line of Jesus Christ. But Jesus is predominatly a Jew in his lineage or line. Jesus did things the Jewish way because He came first to the lost house of the tribe of Israel. This is all smeared with mud if Jesus quoted from a Gentile set of writings of the Scriptures. The Gentiles were not considered a group of people who knew God. Therein lies the problem in saying that the Gentiles had followed God more correctly before Christ's birth.

 

[Direct Driver]

Nowhere was I suggesting that jots and tittles being Hebrew was the main point Jesus was trying to make in what He was saying in Matthew 5:18. I understand that Jesus' point was that not one detail shall not pass away from the Law and the Prophets until all of them are fulfilled. The Law of Moses was fulfilled upon the cross. Yet, the Prophets portion of the “Law and the Prophets” has yet to be fulfilled because there are many end times prophecies in the Old Testament that need to still be fulfilled. The Old Law was fulfilled upon the cross (Note: This does not mean there is no more Laws under the New Covenant). So yeah, I get the main point. But to say that Jesus quoted from the LXX is to ignore the Jewishness of Jesus Christ. Jesus said salvation was of the Jews and He told His disciples to not go into the way of the Gentiles. So Jesus was very Jewish. This is something you have to ignore in order to favor the LXX.

Sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I don't mean that Jesus quoted the Septuagint. I meant that the NT quotes it. A lot. Word for word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Honestly, a KJV bible is somewhere between a modern English bible and a German bible for me. I have to use too much of my CPU (my brain) trying to decipher old figures of speech into modern English - my native tongue. The only thing I use it for is when studying other versions I may refer to it to see if there are differences. I switched from NIV to ESV a few years ago because the ESV is based on new manuscripts that didn't exist when the KJV was penned.

The KJV seems to have a lot of stuff that was added by (probably) well meaning scribes, but it's important to know which verses were, in fact, added.

This is the Modern way of thinking. My encouragement is for you to check out the links I provided for you. All I can do is point you to the truth but it is up to you to do your own homework. You don't even have to check out my links although they are very helpful. You can ask God and do your own research as to why people think the KJB is the book above all books.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I don't mean that Jesus quoted the Septuagint. I meant that the NT quotes it. A lot. Word for word.

Again, not true. Not including the gospels, the apostles who had written the Scriptures were Jewish. Even the apostle Paul was Jewish, and his example to follow was Jesus Christ.

 

[Direct Driver]

This is the Modern way of thinking. My encouragement is for you to check out the links I provided for you. All I can do is point you to the truth but it is up to you to do your own homework. You don't even have to check out my links although they are very helpful. You can ask God and do your own research as to why people think the KJB is the book above all books.

All times are "modern" times. There is nothing wrong with "modern" thinking.

And I've done a LOT of research on why people think the KJV is the book above all books. I have a couple of friends that feel that way. Do not think it has not already been heavily discussed and researched.

Bottom line is that I take very seriously the admonition to Timothy that "all scripture" is useful, etc. But I don't worship any book. And that includes the compilation of history books, letters, prayers and prophesy that is commonly called "the bible" in all of its forms. It is perfect in that it is from a divine source. It is flawed in that it was produced by inspired "humans". They didn't fall into a trance to produce it. They wrote it through inspiration, in the same way that modern writers do. But we take it "more seriously" because many of the authors literally walked with Christ or had personal contact with those who did, and much of it literally precedes with "And God said".

Prayer is far more important than the bible. But the knowledge one has via reading the bible enhances one's relationship with the Lord - though it is not required for salvation.

I actually see the bible two ways and with two purposes:
1. The gospels are for non believers.
2. The whole book is for believers to better understand their God and savior and increase both their usefulness to His plan as well as their own personal joy in this life, followed by the life to come. And pretty much any bible - in a language you understand - can do that.

 

[Direct Driver]

Again, not true. Not including the gospels, the apostles who had written the Scriptures were Jewish. Even the apostle Paul was Jewish, and his example to follow was Jesus Christ.

They are not mutually exclusive concepts. I think one thing is sinking in, though. You seem to see the Septuagint from a racial perspective. I don't.

I am a big fan of this site, though: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

 

[Bible Highlighter]

2 Timothy 3:16 would include all of NT Scripture;

I can say we disagree on that point

This is totally an unorthodox view within Christianity. Most Christians do not disregard 2 Timothy 3:16 as being included as Scripture. Peter refers to Paul's epistles as Scripture.

Peter says of Paul's writings:
“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16).

- or agree in that all things written down are "scripture".

No. It is only only the written Words of God that are considered Scripture. This again is the standard view in Christianity. Nowhere does Jesus or his followers refer to writings that are not inspired as being Holy Scripture.

All bibles have lots of flaws, and that's ok. They are both divine and human. And the human parts are flawed.

The problem in this kind of approach to the Bible is that we become the arbiters of truth. We are the ones who are sitting in God's seat and determining what we should follow and believe. We get to cherry pick what verses we want to accept or reject. The problem with this kind of thinking also is that God was not powerful enough to preserve His Word for us today. God is holy and perfect, but His Word is not perfect? How can we decide what to follow and what not to follow? The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Can we truly trust ourselves when it comes to choosing what parts of the Bible are true and not true? Therein lies the problem.

Did the rooster crow once, or did it crow twice?

There are only contradictions in the Bible for those who want to see them. There was not a contradiction that I was not able to solve and the one you put forth sounds like something a child would ask (that is just common sense). So in my opinion, this would be asking a foolish question.

 

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This is totally an unorthodox view within Christianity. Most Christians do not disregard 2 Timothy 3:16 as being included as Scripture. Peter refers to Paul's epistles as Scripture.

Only if you leave out the rest of my quote, which you did: "- or agree in that all things written down are "scripture".
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I think this discussion has run its course, for me, at least. I'm trying to do ten things at once right now and I've made my case as reasonably as is necessary on a forum, at this point. It's starting to go down rabbit trails, which means it's a good time to bow out. We've both made our cases for the "lurker" I suppose. I know (or at least believe) that both of us will modify our viewpoints as we continue to study. And that is a good thing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All times are "modern" times. There is nothing wrong with "modern" thinking.

There is because we are living in the last days. Men are getting away from the Bible in their thinking in these last days because they don't want to be under any kind of authority fully.

And I've done a LOT of research on why people think the KJV is the book above all books. I have a couple of friends that feel that way. Do not think it has not already been heavily discussed and researched.

But I don't think you really know all the facts, though. I have painstakingly brought up alot of points in favor of the KJB being the pure Word of God for today.

30 reason why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God for today

It doesn't hurt you to check out a more comprehensive presentation on a defense of the KJB instead of some weak defenses made by other KJB proponents. I would also check out Mr Gipp's short video series (that is done in movie like quality).

Here is the first episode:

Here is a link to all seven episodes, plus a bonus featurette video.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdD7_B3zweu0qi_gUHA9W_0JxSM_jT0zj

Bottom line is that I take very seriously the admonition to Timothy that "all scripture" is useful, etc. But I don't worship any book. And that includes the compilation of history books, letters, prayers and prophesy that is commonly called "the bible" in all of its forms. It is perfect in that it is from a divine source. It is flawed in that it was produced by inspired "humans". They didn't fall into a trance to produce it. They wrote it through inspiration, in the same way that modern writers do. But we take it "more seriously" because many of the authors literally walked with Christ or had personal contact with those who did, and much of it literally precedes with "And God said".

No Christian I know of worships any book.
But the Holy Bible is not flawed as you claim.
If such were the case, then our faith would be flawed because faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

Prayer is far more important than the bible.

This is just downright wrong on so many levels. There are lots of people who pray to God and yet if they don't have a Bible and or if they don't follow the Bible, they are lost. You cannot be saved without following the Holy Bible today. We know of Jesus and the gospel via the Holy Bible. You are able to discern the difference between a false Christ, and the real Christ by the Bible. You are able to discern between a false gospel and the real one by the Bible. So no. What you say is not true. So while prayer is important, it is not above God's Word. We would not even know how to properly pray if it wasn't for the Bible. For Jesus referred to those who prayed in vain repetition. Jesus also said, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21). How do we know to do the will of the Father? It is by God's Holy Word (the Bible).

But the knowledge one has via reading the bible enhances one's relationship with the Lord - though it is not required for salvation.

Then you don't know your Bible. 1 John 2:3-4 makes a direct correction to keeping God's commands with knowing the Lord. The person who says they know the Lord and they don't keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. How do we get the Lord's commands? By NT Scripture. Even the words of Paul are to be regarded as the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37).

I actually see the bible two ways and with two purposes:
1. The gospels are for non believers.
2. The whole book is for believers to better understand their God and savior and increase both their usefulness to His plan as well as their own personal joy in this life, followed by the life to come. And pretty much any bible - in a language you understand - can do that.

Yet, all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness according to 2 Timothy 3:16.

 

[Direct Driver]

There is because we are living in the last days.

I did not read that extensive post, but let me leave it at this: One of those KJV only people was my father. We talked about it at length. He bought me books on why other versions are downright evil. I researched this off and on for decades. I'm not coming from a position of ignorance. I'm just holding back because I don't believe in arguing ad-nausium as the bible warns us of doing.

I continue to study all aspects of the Christian life and occasionally have epiphanies that dramatically change my thinking about the kingdom of God. The biggest was switching from ECT to CI. But another big one was realizing that the gods in the bible that we are told that God is above actually exist. Yes, the spiritual realm, beings and gods spoken of in the old and new testament is not just a euphemism. It is real.

And even a "living bible" has usefulness.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They are not mutually exclusive concepts. I think one thing is sinking in, though. You seem to see the Septuagint from a racial perspective. I don't.

I am a big fan of this site, though: Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

I was aware of this article a very long time ago. I believe in the Conditional Immortality view of Hell. More specifically I beleive in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. But again, that does not mean the authors of this article are correct on everything. But Jesus and his followers would definitely quote from the Hebrew version of the Scriptures because that is all that they would have had in the synagogues. The synagogues were Jewish, and they had deep Hebrew roots. The Gentiles were considered unclean to the Jews. For this is why Peter had a vision about unclean animals before going to Cornelius' house.

 

[Direct Driver]

I was aware of this article a very long time ago. I believe in the Conditional Immortality view of Hell. More specifically I beleive in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. But again, that does not mean the authors of this article are correct on everything. But Jesus and his followers would definitely quote from the Hebrew version of the Scriptures because that is all that they would have had in the synagogues. The synagogues were Jewish, and they had deep Hebrew roots. The Gentiles were considered unclean to the Jews. For this is why Peter had a vision about unclean animals before going to Cornelius' house.

I don't see Hebrew as a divine language. I see it as one of many languages. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I did not read that extensive post, but let me leave it at this: One of those KJV only people was my father. We talked about it at length. He bought me books on why other versions are downright evil. I researched this off and on for decades. I'm not coming from a position of ignorance. I'm just holding back because I don't believe in arguing ad-nausium as the bible warns us of doing.

Perhaps the videos by Mr. Gipp will be helpful. I am also 100% sure that your father did not present 30 reasons in defense of the KJB as I have, either. I brought up some really good points. Maybe there is something you are missing that you have never heard before. It is my hope and prayer that you will not shun knowledge just because you thought you heard it all.

I continue to study all aspects of the Christian life and occasionally have epiphanies that dramatically change my thinking about the kingdom of God. The biggest was switching from ECT to CI.

Yes, I would agree with you on this one. This was a big ephiphany for me, as well. I also believe in Conditional Immortality (i.e. More specifically Dualistic Conditional Immortality; This is the view that hell is a real place, but the wicked will eventually be destroyed or erased from existence in the Lake of Fire).

But another big one was realizing that the gods in the bible that we are told that God is above actually exist. Yes, the spiritual realm, beings and gods spoken of in the old and new testament is not just a euphemism. It is real.

I believe “gods" can refer to rulers of regular men who are not divine (John 10:34-35). It is just another reference for the word “kings." The sons of God can refer to angels. In Genesis 6, I believe fallen angels mated with human females creating a hybrid race known as the Nephilim. Goliath was a Nephilim. But they were not gods. They are simply the sons of God.

And even a "living bible" has usefulness.

I am not your average KJB proponent. I use Modern Translations all the time, but my final Word of authority is the KJB because of the overwhelming evidence in favor of it being the pure Word of God for today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't see Hebrew as a divine language. I see it as one of many languages. Nothing more and nothing less.

But we have to understand that Jesus and the apostles were Jewish, and they went to synagogues that were very Jewish and they only had Hebrew Scriptures there. The Gentiles were considered unclean by Jewish people, and so if there was any Gentile Scriptures (Which I don't believe is the case), then they would have thrown them out because the Gentiles were unclean according to the Jews. This is evident when Peter received his vision of unclean animals before seeing Cornelius.

 

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I can only say that I disagree with your assertion. I think he is saying "this is not from God. This is from me." You are then free to "make of it what you will". Paul is not God. Paul is a man inspired by Jesus. But he's not the only one. There are men alive today that are inspired by Jesus. You probably are. But I'm not stapling your posts to the back of my bible.

I used to hold to that view, but I have changed because I believe the Holy Bible is all inspired Scripture.
I believe that I get my faith from the Bible. For I know of Jesus and the gospel because of the Holy Bible. I build my faith upon the Bible because without it, on our own we would be following the ways of death.

 

[Direct Driver]

Perhaps the videos by Mr. Gipp will be helpful.

Seen 'em before. I've also seen responses from the "other side". A LOT from both sides. That's the problem and why I'm bowing out.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Seen 'em before. I've also seen responses from the "other side". A LOT from both sides. That's the problem and why I'm bowing out.

But you did not see my 30 reasons in defense of the KJB. Maybe there is something you are missing. For me, one of the big ones is biblical numerics. Biblical numerics confirms both the original languages (Hebrew and Greek) as being divine in origin, and it also confirms the KJB as being divine in origin, as well. In my next post, I provided some videos to show you what I am talking about.

 

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Bible Numbers that glorify God and His Word. (Note: This is not like traditional Numerology where a person guides their life by numbers. These are also not equidistant letter sequences or numbers that attempt to get one to have a special dream, or to divine the future in some way; Striving to foretell the future is forbidden in the Bible). Numbers are something that we deal with in our everyday life and all things glorify God. So obviously the numbers in God's Word would naturally glorify Him in some way. What am I talking about? Check out this video on Numbers & the Greek New Testament.

Sevens in the Bible - Chuck Missler:

Also, here is a video series by Mike Hoggard that talks about the number 7 in the King James.

King James Code - Number 7 - Mike Hoggard (Part 1):

King James Code - Number 7 - Mike Hoggard (Part 2):

Now, I do not agree with Chuck's view on Salvation. I also do not like watching Mike's regular sermon videos because they can get a little far out there. But, while I may not agree with Mike and Chuck on everything they teach in the Bible nor on the way they teach the Bible in every instance, their teaching on Biblical numerics are amazing; I have found that they have made some startling discoveries. Discoveries that do not appear in the modern translations but only in the original languages (Chuck) and only in the King James (Mike). Don't believe me? Just watch the videos for yourself.

A Note on Biblical Numerics:

Again, some confuse this with numerology (Which is false). Numerology is about living your life under the guidance by numbers (Which is wrong). I believe biblical numerics helps us primarily to see that God's Word is divine in origin. In this case, it helps to prove the KJV is God's Word. While the following CF thread link on the number 46 in the Bible is not exactly a defense for the KJV in every instance the number 46 appears, it does help to show the validity of the King James Bible being superior over the Modern Translations. For certain instances the number 46 appears only shows up in the King James tying in with the meaning behind the number.

The Amazing Bible Number 46.