The bible has no authority without the church

[Andy Broadley]

First of all, excellent thread Bj, thanks for posting it.

My first reaction when I saw the thread title was along the lines of..No, this cannot be.

Then I read the OP and the replies. And now I see the point Bj was making.

I thought both Adam and Tom made excellent points, in fact all the posts have been well thought and reasoned.

Having read it through and thought about it, my response is that the Christian Church and the Bible are so interlinked with each other that the one would could not exist without the other.

I can't agree that the Bible has no authority without the Church, but I do believe that the church makes sense of the Bibles authority, and without the Church the Bibles authority would be greatly reduced.

By the same token, without the Bible where would the Church be?

Bottom line of course thugh is that without God they would both be bunk.

Sorry if that doesn't make much sense. been up nearly 24 hrs. Think I'd better get some sleep

 

[cathmomof3]

I agree that the bible would have no authority without the church. Who could have claimed it's infallibility without an authority to do so?

I also would like to stress that our beliefs and many of our practices (sacraments, liturgy) were in place before we even had the bible. The bible confirmed our beliefs and 'put them in writing'...We did not read (after Christianity had already been around a few hundred years) the bible THEN try to come up with our beliefs based on what it said (or what we thought it should say).

 

[Windlord]

"The bible has no authority without the church"

Would you agree with that statement? I would. The church is the pillar and foundation of truth and without the church to define what that bible exactly is then the bible would have no authority. I guess you could say tha old testament gets its authority from the Jews but as far as the new testament goes without the church it would have no authority since we wouldnt know what books are inspired. without the church we could be reading the acts of peter or something.


Questions and comments please

While I don't think that the Bible has authority by itself, I do believe that God can, and does, use the Bible to assert his own authority over those who read it who don't come in contact with the Church.

Both the Church and the Scriptures get their power and authority from God. What makes the Church's Authority different is that it is a living spiritual organism that has union with God, the Bible doesn't.

The Bible is an account of the Church, not the Church itself. However, the Bible is an account of the Church under the authority of the very apostles themselves, the greatest human leaders the Church has ever had. And to think that it doesn't set a standard of some kind is incorrect as well.

Peace,

Windlord.

 

[cathmomof3]

While I don't think that the Bible has authority by itself, I do believe that God can, and does, use the Bible to assert his own authority over those who read it who don't come in contact with the Church.

Both the Church and the Scriptures get their power and authority from God. What makes the Church's Authority different is that it is a living spiritual organism that has union with God, the Bible doesn't.

The Bible is an account of the Church, not the Church itself. However, the Bible is an account of the Church under the authority of the very apostles themselves, the greatest human leaders the Church has ever had. And to think that it doesn't set a standard of some kind is incorrect as well.

Peace,

Windlord.

Very well said Windlord!

 

[RhetorTheo]

God created the Church. The Church created the Bible. God did not deliver the Bible from heaven. (The Book of Mormon, on the other hand....)

 

[Ravenchica]

The Holy Scriptures are very important, but I am going to have to say that they do not have authority with out the Church. In 325 AD the Council of Nicaea was called to decide what books were to be included in the Bible. With out the Church there would have been no Bible and obviously the Church has the authority to choose the books.

 

[gitlance]

We should put it this way: the Bible cannot speak authoritatively without the Holy Spirit guiding the Church in the true interpretation. St. Irenaeus refused to argue scripture with the heretics, because he said the heretics had no right to use the Bible, as the Bible is a product of the Church. The Church alone has the authority to infallibly interpret what is in Scripture.

Therefore, while there is indeed an inherent authority within the Scriptures, that authority is useless without the Church infallibly acting in an interpretive role.

The same could go with Holy Tradition. While there is an inherent authority within Holy Tradition, that authority is useless if separated from the Catholic Church, which is the only Church that has the authority to infallibly interpret and declare the faith.

 

[gitlance]

The Holy Scriptures are very important, but I am going to have to say that they do not have authority with out the Church. In 325 AD the Council of Nicaea was called to decide what books were to be included in the Bible. With out the Church there would have been no Bible and obviously the Church has the authority to choose the books.

Actually, the council of Nicea did not issue a universal decree concerning the Scriptures. The first universally binding decree concerning the canon of Holy Scripture came from the Council of Trent.

 

[Ravenchica]

I don't think so. Trent was in the 1500 far after the Bible was set.

 

[Ravenchica]

The Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church over time to recognize and determine the canon of the New and Old Testaments in the year 382 at the synod of Rome, under Pope Damasus I. This decision was ratified again at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397 and 419).
Lol. I was wrong. This is the correct info! Thanx for the heads up.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I'll agree that the bible has no authority without the church, when you agree that the church has no authority without the bible

You compare it to a menu and a restaurant... I would say a much more accurate (though not perfect) comparison/analogy would be to say that the bible is to the church as the constitution of the US is to the Supreme Court.


you can say that the church produced the scriptures all you want, but the fact is God produced both the Church and the scriptures.

I definitely agree more with your analogy with the bible and the church compared to the supreme court and its relation to the constution. It definitely makes the most sense of what i've read so far on this thread.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

haha yes!! exactly the kind of post i was looking for. great post! that is exactly what im trying to say.

i suppose, i could agree with you on that. peace.