And speaking of hilarity, I note you conspicuously failed to address the issue of immortality in Jesus' parable of Luke 16:19-31, where Jesus presents immortality of both the redeemed and the damned.
Nice try, but hilarity serves simply as a refuge for a failed argument.
Eternity is one of the ages, the last age, and never ending.Notice how Matthew 12:32 makes it clear that
Jesus is talking about ages, rather than eternity:
The "age to come" is eternity, the consummation of all the ages."Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him,
either in this age or in the age to come."
Mark 3:29 reads: "liable (guilty) of an age-lasting sin."Which backs up Young's translation of Mark 3:29:
"but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit
hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment"
The rich man after his physical death conscious of torment and agony in fire is not there?You're seeing something that isn't there.
Can we drop the "deflect and fail to respond to the point" routine also?How about just discussing, without the "I win you lose" routine?
That is very "adult" of you. So why the "The old 'adults only Bible', eh?" cryptic remark? You quote Matt 11:25 inferring a child was wiser than adults. What is your message?Well, these are just labels to describe 3 alternative views of what the Bible says will happen to folks after they die. Far as I know, there are no other options. But if you've got something to add, by all means proceed.
So Greta is wise and humble because she did not speak of her "geoengineering elephant in the sky" expertise. And let us not forget "the Convid [Covid] face masks". She is wise and humble and super pragmatic as she promotes Oil-based decomposable masks to avoid environmental...er..the mask disposal disaster. You are right children are super wise!Not unless she brings the geoengineering elephant in the sky into her schtick. Let's talk weather warfare on civilian populations, Greta. And how about the environmental disaster occurring through discarded Convid face masks? How very dare you.
Once again, you seem to misunderstand. Please explain your quotes in baby language and the meaning as you see it? For my sake.What misunderstanding? The most futuristic representation in scripture is 1 Cor 15:28, God will be all in all once he receives the package of creation from Christ. You think He does things by halves? Help that man's unbelief Lord! As all things proceed from Him, so to Him shall all return.
And if you can find me any hint of a spinning waterball earth in near-infinite space cosmology in the Bible, do please dial those scriptures in. On my reading, a flat stationary enclosed earth is taught. Do try to accept it. God true, every man liar.
I agree with the mission statement. I agree with means of Salvation.Ok, so let's just follow that through, reason with me, if you will. It's what adults are supposed to do, consider the consequences and all that, whose ox gets gored and what if it has form-type thing. If Jesus is the true begotten son of God, whose birth is good news for all mankind, whose mission is to save the world, and God wants all mankind saved, and God has promised that all will confess, and confession is all that is required for salvation, and salvation is a gift of God, and God will be all in all, and Salvation is the omega plan...then er, gee, um, der...dem mostly all die, boss?
I believe God will annihilate stupidity. That's what's causing the perishing. Capisce?
The rich man after his physical death conscious of torment and agony in fire is not there?
Consciousness after death denotes life of one's spirit after death--immortality.
Eternity is one of the ages, the last age, and never ending.
The "age to come" is eternity, the consummation of all the ages.
Mark 3:29 reads: "liable (guilty) of an age-lasting sin."
No forgiveness to the age (in this age, in this world, in time) and
guilty of an age-lasting (eternal) sin; i.e.,
no forgiveness ever, the guilt of sin remains age-lasting in the next age, the next world--eternity.
I am bound by biblical inerrancy. Gotta go there!Probably not a good idea to build your theology on a poetry book.
The same chapter in Ecclesiastes that is used to claim unconscious nonexistence for the dead also makes reference to "the realm of the dead" (where you are going) in verse ten. The term "the realm of the dead" is found 29 times in the NIV translation. Two of those in Acts chapter two.
And the same sentence in verse five that says the dead know nothing, also says, "they have no further reward" and "even their name is forgotten". Do you believe that as well? No rewards in heaven then. Right?
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Not the eternal age.What about the ages to come?
"that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:7
An age is a span of time with a beginning and an end.
As defined by whom. Do you have apostolic teaching to that effect?An age starts with an event and ends with an event that begins the next age.
Do you have apostolic teaching to that effect, or is that someone's personal interpretation of (a) prophetic riddle(s)?The age to come is the millennial reign of Christ on Earth.
There are three heavens in Scripture. The third heaven is eternal (2 Corinthians 12:1-4).Even Heaven isn't eternal.
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." Matthew 24:35
Mostly is not only, nor exclusively.Where does it say the spirts of the unsaved are immortal?
The Bible mostly talks about their death.
Nobody's funny bone has been tickled more than mine was by your comment,That comment sure tickled my funny bone.
No matter how much things change, they remain the same. They had scrolls to read. Now we scroll on a computer. Same thing.I believe old days they used books instead of computer files!
Mostly is not only, nor exclusively.
Jesus, in his parable, presents immortality (life of the spirit after physical death) of the (unsaved) spirit of the rich man in Hades (the place of punishment in Sheol) in the agony and torment of fire, while Lazarus is in the bosom of Abraham (Paradise, the place of blessing in Sheol, the place of the deceased).
Luke 16:19-31
Not the eternal age.
As defined by whom. Do you have apostolic teaching to that effect?
Do you have apostolic teaching to that effect, or is that someone's personal interpretation of (a) prophetic riddle(s)?
Prophecy is not didactics (teaching), but often symbolic rather than literal, given in riddles rather than clearly (Numbers 12:8) and, therefore, subject to more than one interpretation.
There are three heavens in Scripture. The third heaven is eternal (2 Corinthians 12:1-4).
Wow. Who were you quoting in post #801 ?You're seeing something that isn't there.
Quote: ???
"Nice try, but hilarity serves simply as a refuge for a failed argument."
How about just discussing, without the "I win you lose" routine?
Good point. Thanks for doing all the heavy lifting for us on this. Good work.... Jesus’ stated purposes for being in the there-and-then do not seem to support, or have anything to do with, Hell. Salvation, not damnation or even judgment, seems to be His overriding purpose.
Good point. Thanks for doing all the heavy lifting for us on this. Good work.
Do you agree that the Bible is the story of God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or do you see it differently? What is a better way to look at this? (or another way)
If hell and damnation were not real, there was no need for him to die.Given the title of this thread, I thought it good to collect every statement Jesus made as to why He was here:
Matthew 20:28 – “…the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Matthew 5:17 – “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
Matthew 9:13 – “…I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Matthew 10:34-35 – “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. FOR I AM COME TO SET A MAN AT VARIANCE AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND THE DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND THE DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW.”
Matthew 15:24 – “…I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 18:11 – “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.”
Matthew 20:28 – “…the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Mark 1:38 – “Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth.”
Mark 2:17 – “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 4:18-19 – “THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HATH ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HATH SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PREACH DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERING OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THEM THAT ARE BRUISED, TO PREACH THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
Luke 4:43 – “I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.”
Luke 5:31-32 – “They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 9:56 – “For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”
Luke 12:49 – “I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?”
Luke 12:51 – “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.”
Luke 19:10 – “For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
Luke 24:26 – “Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?”
Luke 24:46-47 – “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
John 3:14-17 – “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
John 4:34 – “My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.”
John 5:30 – “…I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”
John 5:43 – “I am come in my Father’s name…”
John 6:38-40 – “For I came down form heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:48,51 – “I am that bread of life…if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
John 7:28-29 – “…I am not come of myself…for I am from him, and he hath sent me.”
John 9:39 – “For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.”
John 10:10 – “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”
John 12:27 – “Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.”
John 12:46 – “I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.”
John 15:22 – “If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.”
John 18:37 – “Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.”
Jesus’ stated purposes for being in the there-and-then do not seem to support, or have anything to do with Hell. Salvation, not damnation or even judgment, seems to be His overriding purpose.
A more complete reading of Scripture reveals it is the second death, which Jesus was careful to make sure we understood correctly by teaching it in story form (parable) in Luke 16:19-31, where the rich man after his death abides in a place of conscious torment in the agony of fire. . .in a state of being, not in the oblivion of non-being.Very well then, the scriptures say there will be life only for those in Christ and death for those who aren't.
Abraham's bosom = Paradise. . .and that is exactly where I am going to spend eternity. . .with you, I hope!There's no indication permanency in that arrangement. Do you think you're going to spend eternity in Abraham's Bosom?
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