The Best Tool

[Radagast]

Ok, as long as you don't take "mathematical objects are outside the physical universe" as a segway into saying god exists somehow then fine. i don't care how you define anything. I just see a lot of logical proofs for god's existence that are internally consistent like math but have no basis in physical reality.

I think you mean "segue." And the segue here could perhaps be: how and where do numbers exist, given that they exist outside the physical universe? After all, the infinitely many digits of π have no basis in the physical reality of a finite universe either. But that's way off the OP's topic.

 

[DaneaFL]

I have studied bigfoot, the toothfairy, santa clause and so forth. I am sorry, if that is the best you can do then we really do not have a conversation here. You just do not know enough about what we are talking about. If you want to talk about myths then tell me: Was Helen of Troy a real person? Did her boyfriend and husband really fight a war over her? Did her boyfriend kidnap her or did she run off with him? Was Troy a real city? Was their really a Trojan war? How about the story of the Trojan horse. Was that a real story or something that someone made up?

I don't know... I don't believe anything until I have a reason to. Have they found evidence that there really was a war? I'll believe anything they find evidence for... I guess it was a real city, right?

You are comparing a fairly normal story with a magical mythical one.

Which is more likely to be true: a giant horse made out of wood that held a group of soldiers, or a giant ark made out of wood that held 2 of every animal in the world?

You are telling me that it requires the same amount of faith to believe the Trojan war happened as it does to believe all the magical stories of the Bible?

What's your point? that we should believe every myth as long as it contains at least a few correct names/dates/or places? so do you believe the goddess Athena punched a dragon so hard that it got stuck in the sky?

After all, greece is a REAL place and that's where the myth came from... so obviously it's true by your logic.

 

[DaneaFL]

You mean like Phlogiston being the source of heat, Pluto being our 9th planet, or Thalidomide being a prenatal wonder drug?

Oh so did faith disprove those things? no wait, that was science too!

Science constantly improves by correcting itself. when's the last time religion corrected itself? Well, I think the church finally corrected itself on evolution in 1950... kinda slow.. but I'll give them a little credit.

Where was scientific truth at just before the Challenger was pronounced, 'go for throttle-up'?

Where was God?

 

[DaneaFL]

Sometimes only the "effect" is "observable". The mainstream theory about the universe offers no way to empirically "test" over 95 percent of their beliefs on Earth. Where do I get any "dark matter" to test in a lab? Dark energy? Inflation? This is what passes for "science" to this very day. We might observe rotation curve "mysteries", but there is no correlation between that mismatch between observation and theory and "exotic" types of matter. The "EFFECT" becomes "scientific/observable", but what about the CAUSE? Is acceleration really CAUSED by "dark energy" in any EMPIRICAL test on Earth? Is God really the CAUSE of the all "personal experiences" of humans on Earth throughout recorded human history? How do we empirically go about testing the CAUSE of something in an ORGANIZED manner, with REAL and EMPIRICAL control mechanisms here on Earth?

yes, sometimes only the effect is observable... but we don't need to make dark matter in the lab to know it exists... again, you don't seem to understand that we can test things without actually holding them in our hands.

When we say we can "test" something, it means be can demonstrate that it is predictable. Even though we can't see or touch dark matter, we know how it behaves.

Now, if you can test god or prayer the same way, go for it! Even though god can't be seen or touched he should still be testable if he has some kind of effect on reality.

like you said, sometimes only the effect can be tested. Well, test the effect of god and show me how he exists!

 

[Jazer]

What's your point?

My point is before you comment do a little bit of research to at least make an attempt to make it look like you know what your talking about. It is so easy in the day of Wiki. They got it all condensed down for you and it does not take a whole lot of time to at least learn a little bit of something about what you want to comment on.

 

[Jazer]

Now, if you can test god or prayer the same way, go for it! Even though god can't be seen or touched he should still be testable if he has some kind of effect on reality.

It has been fairly well established that our mind has an effect on reality. So that makes it difficult to test for what is a product of our mind and what is God. Even I was in a church that taught a difference between man's faith (positive thinking) and God's divine faith as a work of the Holy Spirit in us. Still I think a lot of us get confused at the difference between man's faith and God's divine faith at work in us and in our lives. Isn't that basicly what your saying anyways, it is not really a work of God just a manifestation of something that man is doing? Because business and sports are fairly well convinced that there is an advantage to positive thinking. Motivational speakers can make a good living. Even in the church speakers who are positive and uplifting are always popular. People are always ready to be encouraged. Even the basic Christian message in a paraphrased sort of way is that we are all worthless, but with God we can be born again and become a new person that we may like better then the old person we were. At least we are told God will like the new us that we become when we are born again and made new in God.

 

[Jazer]

so do you believe the goddess Athena punched a dragon so hard that it got stuck in the sky?

I believe that Athena was a real person. I do not know the story about her and the dragon. This is what a dragon looks like today. You say she punched one in the stomach? I have no doubt that she would do something like that. They use to tell stories about people back then. Even a few hundred years ago they would tell stories about people like Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett and so forth. It is just a way that people pass the time and entertain themselves. They had stories about vampires back then and that sort of thing I hear is popular story material in the movies today for young people. There really is some sort of a disease, but they get very carried away when they tell stores about those people.

So I think if Athena punched a dragon in the stomach that would give her a rep for being a brave girl. But the it got stuck in the sky part of the story. That sounds like what they call embellishment. They add things to the story to make the story more interesting or to maybe get people to laugh about it.

 

[Tiberius]

LOL -- thank you for practically admitting you weren't clear.

What is the difference between 'finding out about the universe' and 'learning about the universe'?

You can find out that evolution occurs. You can learn how it occurs.

But it's very typical of you to resort to quibbles about grammar when you have nothing worthwhile to add to a discussion.

 

[DaneaFL]

I believe that Athena was a real person. I do not know the story about her and the dragon. This is what a dragon looks like today. You say she punched one in the stomach? I have no doubt that she would do something like that. They use to tell stories about people back then. Even a few hundred years ago they would tell stories about people like Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett and so forth. It is just a way that people pass the time and entertain themselves. They had stories about vampires back then and that sort of thing I hear is popular story material in the movies today for young people. There really is some sort of a disease, but they get very carried away when they tell stores about those people.

So I think if Athena punched a dragon in the stomach that would give her a rep for being a brave girl. But the it got stuck in the sky part of the story. That sounds like what they call embellishment. They add things to the story to make the story more interesting or to maybe get people to laugh about it.

Finally you understand what I was trying to say with my spiderman analogy!

They use to tell stories about people back then

but they get very carried away when they tell stores about those people

they add things to the story to make the story more interesting

...and things like jesus walking on water, moses parting the red sea, and noah living for 950 years are what?

That sounds like what they call embellishment

 

[Michael]

My point is that if science can't tell one way or the other, then that thing has no basis in reality. name one thing that DOES have a basis in reality but cant be explained by science. even dark matter can be indirectly observed.
If I could see god's invisible influence like I can see dark matter then god would be scientifically provable.

Um, you're standing in intellectual quicksand IMO.

You can certainly see the influence of God on HUMAN BEINGS, many of whom report having a relationship with something they call God. Nobody claims to have a relationship with 'Dark matter". Nobody can show "dark matter" is anything other than a FUDGE FACTOR of epic scientific proportions. They EFFECT that astronomers actually observe is the FAILURE of their galaxy mass estimation techniques, not the effect of "dark matter".

 

[Jazer]

things like jesus walking on water, moses parting the red sea, and noah living for 950 years are what?

Those are things that we can neither prove or disprove because science needs to make more progress. Can man live to be 1000? "Cambridge University geneticist Aubrey de Grey has famously stated, “The first person to live to be 1,000 years old is certainly alive today …whether they realize it or not, barring accidents and suicide, most people now 40 years or younger can expect to live for centuries.”Can the Human Lifespan Reach 1,000 Years -Some Experts Say "Yes"

You can pick on a very few things in the Bible that have not yet been proven. But what about the vast amount that has been proven to be true. Science has a lot more to prove then the Bible does. By your standard you should reject science also.

I remember a story about a women that died and they went in and found her Bible. When they opened up her Bible they found verses with TT&T written in the margin. At first they did not understand, then they came to realize the meaning: "Tested, Tried & Found to be True". The women had spent her whole life testing the Bible. For her she found a lot of truth in the Bible and nothing that you could say is NOT true.

So when you study your Bible day after day, year after year, you continue to confirm that the Bible is true. We can not find anything in our Bible that can be shown or proven not to be true. Plenty we do not understand right off but nothing we can really deny.

 

[TheReasoner]

Those are things that we can neither prove or disprove because science needs to make more progress. Can man live to be 1000? "Cambridge University geneticist Aubrey de Grey has famously stated, “The first person to live to be 1,000 years old is certainly alive today …whether they realize it or not, barring accidents and suicide, most people now 40 years or younger can expect to live for centuries.”Can the Human Lifespan Reach 1,000 Years -Some Experts Say "Yes"

You can pick on a very few things in the Bible that have not yet been proven. But what about the vast amount that has been proven to be true. Science has a lot more to prove then the Bible does. By your standard you should reject science also.

I remember a story about a women that died and they went in and found her Bible. When they opened up her Bible they found verses with TT&T written in the margin. At first they did not understand, then they came to realize the meaning: "Tested, Tried & Found to be True". The women had spent her whole life testing the Bible. For her she found a lot of truth in the Bible and nothing that you could say is NOT true.

So when you study your Bible day after day, year after year, you continue to confirm that the Bible is true. We can not find anything in our Bible that can be shown or proven not to be true. Plenty we do not understand right off but nothing we can really deny.

There are biological barriers in place which do not permit aging that much though. To get centuries old something has to change with us on a very fundamental level.

I don't see how people could have aged that much back then. I am not saying "it did not happen" - but I cannot see how it would be possible. As all we have is texts - at least I don't know of more - stating this I would have to go with a different method of counting time perhaps?
Now, the future is another tale entirely. With several advances we can conceivably age to a very ripe old age in... Well, now. So de Gray probably has that spot on. If not hundreds, then I would wager in excess of a hundred anyway. In the west it might be we will live well beyond 150. I wouldn't bet on it - I never bet - but I do not at all think it impossible.

 

[DaneaFL]

Um, you're standing in intellectual quicksand IMO.

You can certainly see the influence of God on HUMAN BEINGS, many of whom report having a relationship with something they call God.

You can see the influence of a belief in gods and supernatural things, sure... but does that mean that all of those things are real?

Nobody claims to have a relationship with 'Dark matter". Nobody can show "dark matter" is anything other than a FUDGE FACTOR of epic scientific proportions. They EFFECT that astronomers actually observe is the FAILURE of their galaxy mass estimation techniques, not the effect of "dark matter".

fudge factor... you gonna make a lot of astrophysicists mad if you say that.
What have you learned of dark matter? They can actually SEE IT when they watch galaxies collide... watch some youtube videos on it... pretty cool stuff.

 

[Michael]

You can see the influence of a belief in gods and supernatural things,

First of all, there is no guarantee that "God" is "supernatural" as opposed to simply "natural".

http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/

sure... but does that mean that all of those things are real?

That's a great question! See my answer below:

fudge factor... you gonna make a lot of astrophysicists mad if you say that.
What have you learned of dark matter? They can actually SEE IT when they watch galaxies collide... watch some youtube videos on it... pretty cool stuff.

It's way too late for me to worry about making astrophysicists mad. I'm pretty much infamous in those circles these days.

No, they can't actually "see" dark matter. They see they EFFECT of some "missing mass" (they didn't correctly identify) on distant galaxy collisions. Again, it's the *EFFECT* that they "see", not the "dark matter" itself. You seem to accept the EFFECT for the item itself when it suits your beliefs, but you refuse to see the way both "theories" (God and DM) are designed to describe the EFFECT of something that is "unseen" (in the lab).

 

[selfinflikted]

You can certainly see the influence of God on HUMAN BEINGS, many of whom report having a relationship with something they call God. .

What does it mean? Having a "relationship" with god? I can tell you exactly what it means to have a relationship with another human being - I learn things about them, they learn about me, we exchange ideas, communicate, etc. When someone has a relationship with god, does it mean the same thing as having a relationship with another person? Because, as far as I can tell, it must mean something totally different.

Please, explain.

 

[Michael]

What does it mean? Having a "relationship" with god? I can tell you exactly what it means to have a relationship with another human being - I learn things about them, they learn about me, we exchange ideas, communicate, etc. When someone has a relationship with god, does it mean the same thing as having a relationship with another person? Because, as far as I can tell, it must mean something totally different.

Please, explain.

It does tend to mean different things to different people. For me it involves prayer and meditation and "being in the moment'. I'm constantly learning about the universe around me. I'm learning about myself and growing all the time. From my perspective, I could no longer live without God than fish could live without water. I wouldn't have a single atom to my name.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/

 

[selfinflikted]

It does tend to mean different things to different people. For me it involves prayer and meditation and "being in the moment'. I'm constantly learning about the universe around me. I'm learning about myself and growing all the time. From my perspective, I could no longer live without God than fish could live without water. I wouldn't have a single atom to my name.

So, having a "relationship with god" really means "I meditate and feel good about myself?"

 

[Michael]

So, having a "relationship with god" really means "I meditate and feel good about myself?"

No, it means getting to know the BEING called God. Those are simply tools (and effects).

 

[selfinflikted]

No, it means getting to know the BEING called God. Those are simply tools (and effects).

Ok. Can you tell me something you've learned about god's nature that isn't in the Bible? Has anything unknowable any other way come from your relationship with him?

I ask, because I've put this question to many Christians before and I've never received a satisfactory answer. They all claim to have a "one-on-one" relationship with god, but can never give any details about his nature that can only come from "knowing" god.

 

[Michael]

Ok. Can you tell me something you've learned about god's nature that isn't in the Bible?

I've learned that God has a wonderful sense of humor. If that's in there, it's not talked about a lot in church in my experience.

Has anything unknowable any other way come from your relationship with him?

Only his presence and the "feeling" of that relationship with him. I'm not sure how you'd get such information unless you did so directly. One could certainly get character attributes I suppose.

I ask, because I've put this question to many Christians before and I've never received a satisfactory answer. They all claim to have a "one-on-one" relationship with god, but can never give any details about his nature that can only come from "knowing" god.

Suppose we talk about someone that you personally "know" very well. You've gotten to know their "personality" over many years and many conversations. You've seen how they "react" to you in a one on one situation, etc. I could now be introduced to that same person for a few minutes and never make the effort to see them again, but would I ever actually KNOW them like you do?

An atheist or two may not have a "relationship" with God, but how often do they actually "make the effort"? Most people feel "closest" to God during prayer and meditation, and these "practices" are in fact taught in virtually every religion. Surely there's a good reason.