The Bereans

[Christos Anesti]

So who should we trust concerning those oral traditions not written in the Scriptures

Thats easy . The Orthodox Church.

You have to find the true communion of God - the one , holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. One method for finding this is by looking at the fruits of the various communions. Does the church in question have the methods and the God given grace to cure the illnesses of the soul? Does the Church in question produce people who are equal to the Apostles throughout history and even today?

Another criteria to look for is the presence of genuine apostolic secession. Does the church in question go back to the apostles via the laying on of hands.

There are other criteria to look for as well. I'm sure someone else could probably do a better job explaining it then I could though.

Once on has found the true Church it becomes a lot easier to determine which of the various traditions being offered by differing churches and sects are the correct ones to follow.

 

[Standing Up]

LLOJ_So who should we trust concerning those oral traditions not written in the Scriptures

Trace the oral Traditions backward. If you find a connection, then you may at least begin to trust it. Here are some that do not trace back to the times of apostles, but that are claimed to (in parenthesis is scripture version).

Praying to the deceased (ask the living saints for prayer)
All things Mariology (shudder)
All things Papism (council of elders basing decisions on OT/NT scripture)
A separate office of priest (priesthood of believer)
Degrees of saints (baby, wean, young, elder)
Eucharist as sacrifice (thanksgiving only)
Easter observance Sunday sunrise (14th on whatever day it falls)
Altar of sacrifice (table of Lord's presence)

Here's a couple that are traceable to scripture/apostles.

Trinity.

Take care and all the best--

 

[MrPolo]

That the others were jealous. Except that it's not implied, the Bible outright says it.

Yes, the text does say the rejecting Thessalonians were jealous. Of what? Paul's authority? That they were not able to draw the conclusions Paul did using Scripture by themselves? Of Paul's cool sandals? Just kidding.

 

[laconicstudent]

Thats easy . The Orthodox Church.

You have to find the true communion of God - the one , holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. One method for finding this is by looking at the fruits of the various communions. Does the church in question have the methods and the God given grace to cure the illnesses of the soul? Does the Church in question produce people who are equal to the Apostles throughout history and even today?

Another criteria to look for is the presence of genuine apostolic secession. Does the church in question go back to the apostles via the laying on of hands.

There are other criteria to look for as well. I'm sure someone else could probably do a better job explaining it then I could though.

Once on has found the true Church it becomes a lot easier to determine which of the various traditions being offered by differing churches and sects are the correct ones to follow.

 

[shinbits]

It's really not that uncommon of a practice in the history of religion . Look at the mystery religions for example. Many of them expresly forbid people from writting down their teachings for the public to see. Religions also exist in non-literate cultures and they obviously don't write down all their teachings. It should also be noted that many of the stories of the OT existed in oral form long before they were eventually set to writting.

I don't think anyone is saying that the oral traditions have never been written down either. Simply that they are not all written in the Scriptures.
​

Can u really compare a false religion to the one with the one true God? Because those religions are made by men, it's no surprise there'd be some teachings they consider important to be missing. But since we have the true and living God, I don't see God making such a mistake as leaving out something He thought was important enough for us know, from the Bible.

 

[Christos Anesti]

But since we have the true and living God, I don't see God making such a mistake as leaving out something He thought was important enough for us know, from the Bible.

You are assuming it would be a mistake but I don't see why that would necesarily be the case. The New Testament wasn't meant to be a repository of every single truth in existence. It would have to be a much larger book to do that.

Can u really compare a false religion to the one with the one true God?

I was pointing out that it wasn't so odd for a teaching to not be found in writting by showing other examples where that is the case.

it's no surprise there'd be some teachings they consider important to be missing.

The teachings were present in the religion. They were missing from writting. The fact that a religion holds something to be true doesn't imply that it has to be set to writting.

 

[shinbits]

You are assuming it would be a mistake but I don't see why that would necesarily be the case. The New Testament wasn't meant to be a repository of every single truth in existence. It would have to be a much larger book to do that.

Yeah, but not every truth is really important enough that MUST know it. If there's anything we do actually need to know, I doubt God would leave it out.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

In Philips example reading from Isaiah...

I wanted to point out something:

And behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch, of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge over all her treasures, had come to Jerusalem to adore. And he was returning, sitting in his chariot and reading Isaias the prophet.

And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest?

Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

And the place of the scripture which he was reading was this: He was led as a sheep to the slaughter: and like a lamb without voice before his shearer, so openeth he not his mouth. In humility his judgment was taken away. His generation who shall declare, for his life shall be taken from the earth?

And the eunuch answering Philip, said: I beseech thee, of whom doth the prophet speak this? Of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip, opening his mouth and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.

Phillip didn't just say, "It means whatever it means to you", as though there was no correct answer. When everyone just reads the Bible and interprets it however they want to interpret it, we get nowhere -- we just get 10,000 different denominations all arguing about what it means. Is there a right answer or not? If there is no right answer, the Bible is useless -- worse than useless because people don't kill each other over trying to decipher James Joyce's Ulysses. Clearly, if God created the Bible, He created it for a purpose and that purpose was to convey the Truth. Contrary to post-modernist assertions, there can only be one Truth and everything else is false (either a distortion or way off-base).

So, we can all agree on what the Bible says -- translation issues and other lower textual criticism aside -- the real difference between all of us is what it means. The eunuch had Isaias, but he didn't know what it meant. Phillip was a deacon (Acts 6:5), he was an ordained member of the Church and knew the teachings well and imparted the Church's teaching to the eunuch using Isaias.

How can I understand unless someone shows me?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Was it the Trinity? Paul says have been taught (past tense), not something that a council would formulate 300 years later.

Do you believe the Council of Nicaea just invented the idea of the Trinity out of thin air? Has not God been a Trinity for all eternity? Did He not tell this to the Apostles? There is no dogma that exists that was not revealed before the death of the last Apostle. We just grow in our understanding and are able to understand and formulate these teachings better.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

So who should we trust concerning those oral traditions not written in the Scriptures

The Church -- the Apostles and their successors. Particularly the successors of St. Peter:

But I [Jesus] have prayed for thee [Peter], that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.

 

[sunlover1]

Thats easy . The Orthodox Church.

No, my church

You have to find the true communion of God - the one , holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. One method for finding this is by looking at the fruits of the various communions. Does the church in question have the methods and the God given grace to cure the illnesses of the soul? Does the Church in question produce people who are equal to the Apostles throughout history and even today?

I'd say you'll find the one true church wherever you've found
the 'members' of the "one true church" (God's people.)
You can know them by their love.. one for another!!
easy peasy

Another criteria to look for is the presence of genuine apostolic secession. Does the church in question go back to the apostles via the laying on of hands.

Or another to look for would be for the presence of the Holy Ghost.

There are other criteria to look for as well. I'm sure someone else could probably do a better job explaining it then I could though.

I can think of none.
IS God there? Is God's family there? You've found his church!

Of Paul's cool sandals? Just kidding.

..Clearly, if God created the Bible, He created it for a purpose and that purpose was to convey the Truth. Contrary to post-modernist assertions, there can only be one Truth and everything else is false (either a distortion or way off-base).

Amen.

The eunuch had Isaias, but he didn't know what it meant.

Of course he didn't. He needed a Spirit filled Christian to teach him, not to mention where he came from.

Phillip was a deacon (Acts 6:5), he was an ordained member of the Church and knew the teachings well and imparted the Church's teaching to the eunuch using Isaias.[/quote]
Amen.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I wanted to point out something:



Phillip didn't just say, "It means whatever it means to you", as though there was no correct answer. When everyone just reads the Bible and interprets it however they want to interpret it, we get nowhere -- we just get 10,000 different denominations all arguing about what it means. Is there a right answer or not? If there is no right answer, the Bible is useless -- worse than useless because people don't kill each other over trying to decipher James Joyce's Ulysses. Clearly, if God created the Bible, He created it for a purpose and that purpose was to convey the Truth. Contrary to post-modernist assertions, there can only be one Truth and everything else is false (either a distortion or way off-base).

So, we can all agree on what the Bible says -- translation issues and other lower textual criticism aside -- the real difference between all of us is what it means. The eunuch had Isaias, but he didn't know what it meant. Phillip was a deacon (Acts 6:5), he was an ordained member of the Church and knew the teachings well and imparted the Church's teaching to the eunuch using Isaias.

How can I understand unless someone shows me?

Jesus is the effect of every vision as the scripture prophesied of, the goings on between Phillip and the eunch as I see it are in accord with the below study (not posted for you inparticular) just if anyones interested.

They were sealed, It didnt matter whether you were learned

Isaiah 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, andheard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

Acts 3:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

and likewise...

Isaiah 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Whereas Jesus Christ (Son of man) is being adressed who is also the effect of every vision (or the words of the book which were sealed)

To which is referenced here...

Ezek 12:22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?

Ezek 12:23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision.

When Moses (The law) and Elijah (the prophets) which stood with Jesus on the mount (still yet a vision) """speaking of"" his decease) or as Peter confrims (who saw it) of the "sufferings of Christ" he says this...

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, **until** the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Why?

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, **by** the resurrection from the dead:

Again...

Mat 7:9 ... Tell the vision to no man, **until** the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Whereas now...

Romans 3:21 But **now** the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah)

They testified of Jesus all along...

Psalm 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Thus, Philip preached Jesus to him out of the vision of Isaiah (of which Christ is "the effect")

Acts 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

So as ...

Isaiah 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed

And he opened to them the vision of all as he expounded unto them from the scriptures the things concerning himself

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


I must order this up better but alot of times you hear so little of Jesus from those claiming to be the mouth for Jesus.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

No, my church

As long as your Church is the one founded by Christ as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

One founded by a guy at the Grange Hall in 1985 which has teachings not even heard of before the 19th century is not a good choice.

 

[Fireinfolding]

We must all remember that the root bearest us not us the root, broken off branches are not an asignment just for those who boasted of the same things before us

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

We must all remember that the root bearest us not us the root, broken off branches are not an asignment just for those who boasted of the same things before us

No one is boasting because of anything we have done, but about what God has done. The Church is not a human institution, it is a divine institution (with human members). We didn't create the Church.

St. Paul is writing regarding the Jews, warning us not to boast against the Jews as though God had abandoned them. But they will turn back to Him and embrace Jesus as the Christ. Anti-semitism is anti-Christian.

Heresy is quite another matter indeed:

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers who shall bring in sects of perdition and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their riotousness, through whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you. Whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not: and their perdition slumbereth not.

It is should never be a matter of "I'm right, you're wrong", it should always be "Here is God's truth, which I know by Grace, come, drink and be saved."

 

[sunlover1]

As long as your Church is the one founded by Christ as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

There is only one God and therefore one Church..
He (God, my Father) has called me,... by name... I am His.(Therefore I am a part of His body)
He actually prepares a table before me in the presence of my enemies..
He anoints my head with oil..
He makes me to walk in paths of righteousness (For His name's sake)
He rejoices over me with singing !
He takes great delight in me.. and I am in fact the apple of His eye.
He quiets me with His love (Such a gentle and loving Father!)
and gives me a peace that transcends understanding!
His thoughts toward me if they could be counted .. would
outnumber the grains of sand on the beach.
My life to Him is worth all of the treasure in earth.
His banner over me ...
Love


Now you read that what I just typed...
read it outloud
Read it with faith and conviction.
THATs what He says .. about you and about me.

One founded by a guy at the Grange Hall in 1985 which has teachings not even heard of before the 19th century is not a good choice.

Yeah, there IS no mistaking the real thing,
I'm not worried

 

[Fireinfolding]

They thought they had a corner on God too

 

[Fireinfolding]

There is only one God and therefore one Church..
He (God, my Father) has called me,... by name... I am His.(Therefore I am a part of His body)
He actually prepares a table before me in the presence of my enemies..
He anoints my head with oil..
He makes me to walk in paths of righteousness (For His name's sake)
He rejoices over me with singing !
He takes great delight in me.. and I am in fact the apple of His eye.
He quiets me with His love (Such a gentle and loving Father!)
and gives me a peace that transcends understanding!
His thoughts toward me if they could be counted .. would
outnumber the grains of sand on the beach.
My life to Him is worth all of the treasure in earth.
His banner over me ...
Love


Now you read that what I just typed...
read it outloud
Read it with faith and conviction.
THATs what He says .. about you and about me.



Yeah, there IS no mistaking the real thing,
I'm not worried

Beautiful post sis amen!

 

[Standing Up]

Do you believe the Council of Nicaea just invented the idea of the Trinity out of thin air? Has not God been a Trinity for all eternity? Did He not tell this to the Apostles? There is no dogma that exists that was not revealed before the death of the last Apostle. We just grow in our understanding and are able to understand and formulate these teachings better.

That's my argument.

Your job is to prove that 1950 RC dogma.

 

[Standing Up]

As long as your Church is the one founded by Christ as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

RC is not that same church. This we know.

One founded by a guy at the Grange Hall in 1985 which has teachings not even heard of before the 19th century is not a good choice.

Like that 1950 dogma.

Would you like to know about the One, Holy, Catholic, Orthodox, and Apostolic Church now?

PS. Interesting choice of James Joyce Ulysses.