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The Believers of the Great Tribulation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by carlaimpinge, Jun 4, 2002.

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  1. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    One more personal comment and this thread is closed for good.

    According to the Word, the timing of the Rapture is not what saves and makes us Christians.

    Discuss away, but do it in Christian manner.
     
  2. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

    +1,638
    Atheist
    Private
    I will also be watching this thread, and stand with Yauming and Mandy.

    If you are not able to get your point across, without being rude and caustic, this thread will be closed. Consider this a final warning. The next person who violates forum rules in this thread, will banned for two weeks.


    John
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    I personally don't believe that the Bible says those of us in the tribulation with the faith of Jesus will not be Christians.
     
  4. rainbow promise

    rainbow promise New Member

    40
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    To begin with the word Christian simply means follower of Jesus. If a Jew is a follower of Jesus He will definately be among the saved.

    The other truth is there is no difference made between Gentiles and Jews. All are Jews if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

    In AD 34 when the Nation of Israel officially rejected the gospel message.Until that time the disciples were to preach to the Jews first. "Go not into the way of the Gentiles,... But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt.10:5,6

    Jesus had made it very clear that the special status of the Jewish nation would be revoked if the people persisted in rejecting the Messiah. "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matt. 21:43

    Now what is this other "nation" spoken of in Matt. 21:43? "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal.3:29.... Now it appears to me that Israel here means any that are Christ's, not just the nation of Israel. It also says that those that are Christ's are Abrahams seed and will receive the same promise that once belonged to the nation of Israel.

    "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; ... But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly". Rom. 2:28,29 In other words if we are Jewish by blood it means nothing, It is what we are inward. If we are not Christ's we are not Jews, even if we were born one.

    In 34AD with the stoning of Stephen the literal Jewish nation longer was the only Chosen of God. Because they consistently resisted God's plan for them, the nation of Israel in no longer the central focus of end-time prophecy. Now all who accept Jesus are His chosen and the promises God made to literal Israel now also apply to spiritual Isarel.(Rom. 9:6-8). The only ones exempt from these promises are those that do not totally accept christ, otherwise no one would be.
     
  5. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

    100
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    rainbow promise,

     

    Thanks for your post.

    Your definition of Christian is lacking.  You didn't post any verses to prooftext it.  Read, the Christians, at my site.

    Your post is LOADED with errors.

    The body of Christ being "spriritual Israel".  No such term found in the Bible.

    The body of Christ IS NOT a nation.  The ELECT REMNANT were a nation, who are NOW in the body of Christ.  You blew the prooftext of Matt.21.  It's GIVEN to the apostles and their followers.  ALL JEWS.  (Matt.21:43, Luke 12:31-32, 1 Peter 2:1-6)

    Rom.2 IS NOT teaching Gentile members of the body of Christ ARE JEWS.  That is foolishness not supported or stated by the text.

    Rom.9 IS NOT teaching anything about Gentiles.  The context is JEWS who have believed.

    Read, Gentile Jews, at my site.

     

    In Christ Jesus,

    Carl
     
  6. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +147
    Christian
    Single
    Go for it Carl , don't let em get away without any verses to prooftex it .
    Some of these people can be very shiffty .
     
  7. rainbow promise

    rainbow promise New Member

    40
    +0
    Matt. 21:43...The kingdom of God shallbe taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    In this text Jesus made it very clear that the special status of the Jewish nation would be revoked if the people kept on rejecting the Messiah.

    As far as the word spiritual Jew, why should those words be litterally mentioned in the Good Book? Most every one believes in a rapture of some sort, and the word rapture isn't in the book.....

    Most believe in a mellinium of some sort, and the word millenium isn't mentioned either. It is no different with the word spiritual Jew.
     
  8. rainbow promise

    rainbow promise New Member

    40
    +0
    Gal.3: 26-29
    For ye are al the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ;s, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Jewish nation no longer is top dog so to speak it is all those that are in Christ and they only. If a Jew accepts Christ then they to will receive eternal life.

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Gather, but by me...It is only thru faith in Christ we will receive eternal life. (Jew or Gentile.)There is no more distinction between the two.

    From this text there is only one way to God the Father and that is thru Jesus. Now any that do not accept Jesus as their saviour will not be among the saved in any way shape or form. The resurrected righteous and living righteous at the second coming of Christ are those that believe in Christ(Christians). If they do not then they are the unrighteous, there is no inbetween in Rev. You are either righteous, or unrighteous.

    Those in Rev. then that make it are those that "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.(Rev. 12:17)...Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)........Those that do not possess this will not make it to eternal life no if ands or buts about it.
     
  9. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

    100
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    Christian
    rainbow promise,

     

    No.  Jesus said nothing about any special status being taken away.  He told the chief priests and Pharisees, who were the leaders of the nation, that the kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits.  THAT WAS THE APOSTLES and their followers.  I posted the verses. 

     

    It should be mentioned because YOU THINK the body of Christ are spiritual Jews.  Again, that is not a Biblical teaching.  IN CHRIST, there is NO national, sexual, or social status.  (Gal.3) 

     

    All the OT saints were NOT Christians.  They're raised at the second coming and they are righteous.  Sorry.

    All you did was suppose something without prooftexts to teach your supposition.

    Did you read my threads?

     

     
     
  10. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    There is a difference between the nation of Israel and the body of Christ, the bride, the church. Within the body of Christ there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, that is what was meant in that verse, it is not about the church becoming "spiritual Israel", as there is no such thing. Because of the unbelief, we Gentiles were given the gospel as well.  The parable of the marriage supper shows this very clearly.  Isaiah, Ezekiel, Romans, Revelation, etc., show that God is not through with Israel.  Replacement theology is seriously flawed.
     
  11. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    If only faith in Christ can get one to heaven, then how did the prophet Daniel enter. He was promised an inheritance after his old age. There are many old testament saints that will be in heaven and never even heard of Jesus in their whole lifetimes. The Jews under the law were forgiven just as we are. The main difference was that our forgiveness was done once for all and for all time, but the Jews had to renew their forgiveness every year. In this age we are no longer under the law, but after the rapture Israel will rebuild their temple and sacrifice again, and God will honor them again. The anti-christ will put a stop to this sacrifice, but God has still promised to save them.

    Now I have a question for you. Where in your bible did you ever get the idea that the church is now Israel?? Israel is being punished, but no one will ever take her place. God is married to Israel. They are separated, not divorced. Jesus' Bride will come from the church. Israel the woman bore the Son. Do you also believe that the Son would try to steal His Fathers wife?? God never gave Israel a certificate of divorce. You people need to wake up. Are you another preterist??
     
  12. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

    100
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    Christian
    Mandy,

     

    It's hard to get some people to believe that, even after they read the verses.

     

    In Christ Jesus,

    Carl
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Can anyone come to the Father apart from faith in Christ?

    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:7).

    "By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12).

    "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6).

    Can anyone have faith in Christ without being part of the church?

    "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

    "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Romans 10:12).

    "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).
     
  14. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
     

    What exactly are you saying?  Those verses do not "prove" replacement theology.  Once again, we do not become Israel.  God is not through with the nation of Israel as scripture shows.  Simply look at the 144,000 from the 12 tribes in Revelation.  It is not a matter of salvation apart from Christ, it is a matter of there still being a distinction between the unbelieving nation of Israel and the church.  There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.  After the rapture, God will once again turn to deal with Israel.
     
  15. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    The absence of the word "church" (or an explicit reference to the Body of Christ) after a certain point in the book of Revelation doesn't tell you anything about whether or not the church is raptured or when. IMO it is more compelling, although certainly not conclusive, to theorize when the rapture occurs and then look to see if there is any mention of the church before or after that event in Revelation to see if those mentions confirm or refute your conclusion. But just noting the absence of a reference to the Body of Christ after a certain point doesn't tell you anything about WHEN, after that point, the church is raptured (assuming it is raptured after that point at all).

    Here is where I think you go astray. The 144,000 are sealed as the Day of the Lord begins. You are assuming that the great tribulation continues from this point forward, so you place the 144,000 within the great tribulation.

    But the Day of the Lord marks the END of the great tribulation. So anything that occurs AFTER this point is no longer "during" the great tribulation.

    So let's put those signs in the context of Revelation:

    There you have it in plain language that the signs of the Day of the Lord occur IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION, and AFTER THAT, the 144,000 are sealed for protection during the time of God's wrath.

    Now, if you really want to base your conclusions on when a word is no longer used (I don't suggest this, but just so you can see another application of it), then notice that the word "tribulation" does not occur after the Day of the Lord except to say that the multitude has COME OUT of the great tribulation. This is no longer referred to as a time of tribulation, but the DAY OF HIS WRATH.

    The one merit this has is that it harmonizes perfectly with Scripture. We are never told we will be spared tribulation, but we ARE told that we are not appointed to wrath.

    So this may very well be WHY the church is not mentioned after the Day of the Lord...because the great tribulation is over, and the time of wrath has begun.

    This is something you, yourself, point out.

    I agree. But according to Jesus in Matthew 24, that's the moment the great tribulation ENDED.
     
  16. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

    100
    +0
    Christian
    npetrely,

    As I said, the body of Christ is not mentioned by John. Some people "think" it is. They assume and suppose the believers IN THE GREAT TRIBULATION to be Christians, as those are IN ANTIOCH, (Acts 11).

    Your MISTAKE was assuming the great tribulation WAS NOT the day of the Lord. It is. The time of Jacob's trouble IS the great tribulation spoken of by Christ. That TIME is called a DAY, which is GREAT, and is also stated to come to pass, IN THAT DAY.

    That's ENOUGH biblical words to identify THAT TIME, as the day of the Lord. (Isaiah 2)

    The day of the Lord STARTS the great tribulation, which is the time of the woman in travail. (1 Thess.5) Sorry. You messed up again.

    The END of the day of the Lord is WHEN the heavens and the earth are destroyed. (2 Peter 3) That is AFTER the millenium. You're a thousand years OFF.

    Your NEXT mistake is "thinking" Revelation is chrononlogical in ACTUAL EVENTS stated. It is chronological, IN JOHN's "witnessing" of the visions contained. He wrote it, in the order he saw it, NOT in the actuality of the timing of the events stated.

    You should know that.

    The day of the Lord STARTS with the invasion of Jerusalem, NOT the coming of the Lord AFTER the great tribulation. (Zech.14:1-2) That is 42 months before the coming of the Lord. (Rev.`11, Luke 21, Dan.8,9,11, 2 Thess.2)

    It STARTS, not with the sun, moon, and stars being DARKENED, but with the SUN GOING DOWN AT NOON. (Amos 8:9, Jer.6,15,Micah 3) That is SUNSET at noon, not at the regular evening time of 6:00 pm.

    The day of his wrath IS the actual 24 hour day of his coming. The ONE which can't be known. (Matt.24) It is NOT the time period of the day of the Lord, which INCLUDES not only, the great tribulation, but the actual day of his wrath, and the coming millenium. (Jer.30 COVERS all of those)

    The Lord Jesus IS NOT SPEAKING of the body of Christ in Matt.24. IT HAS NOT BEEN REVEALED. Paul did that. (Eph.3) He's still wondering why Ms. Gamaliel LETS her husbands toenails get so long! (Acts 22) Sorry. You got too many mistakes in your exegesis.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  17. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    On the contrary, it is a perfectly orderly reading of what the text says in black and white (and red, depending on your edition). If you truly believe otherwise, please provide prooftexts for your conclusion.

    If you assert that the Day of the Lord begins the great tribulation, then you have created a contradiction in the Bible.

    Jesus clearly places the beginning of the Great Tribulation immediately AFTER the abomination of desolation, when the man of sin is revealed.

    Then Jesus says immediately AFTER the distress/tribulation of those days, the celestials signs occur (sun dark, moon blood, etc).

    THOSE SIGNS signal the beginning of the Day of the Lord's wrath, according to the book of Revelation and many OT texts. THIS ORDER is confirmed in no uncertain terms in other OT texts, such as Joel 2:31 (quoted in Acts 2).

    As further confirmation, note that 2 Thessalonians also speaks of the Day of the Lord as a separate event that occurs AFTER the abomination of desolation (when the man of sin is revealed), which is the event that triggers the Great Tribulation.

    So the Bible consistently puts the events in this order:

    Abomination -> Great Trib -> Celestial signs -> Day of Lord's Wrath

    So the Day of the Lord, which is introduced by the celestial signs CANNOT be the same thing as the beginning of the great tribulation, nor can it describe the ENTIRE Great Tribulation if it comes AFTER it.

    Finally, the Bible not only fails to support the conclusion that the Day of the Lord is equal to the Great Tribulation (the time of Jacob's trouble), Obadiah 1:15-17 identifies this as the time when Jacob is rewarded with his inheritance AFTER the time of Jacob's trouble.

    This is a consistent theme. In the OT, the Day of the Lord does not describe the events associated with the Great Tribulation, such as the desecration of the temple, seige on Jerusalem, etc. Rather, the Day of the Lord is identified with God's wrath on the nations (and apostate Israel) and the deliverance of and vindication of the remnant of Israel (most likely the 144,000 who are sealed for protection)! This is a time of wrath on the nations that is for the vindication, protection, and deliverance of Israel in preparation for her King!



    Here are some of my prooftexts.

    Note the consistent pattern here:

    1. The Day of the Lord's wrath is directly from God, not from an antichrist

    2. It comes upon the nations, not just Israel

    3. Israel (or a remnant) is vindicated and protected

    4. THE SAME CELESTIAL EVENTS ARE ALWAYS ASSOCIATED WITH AND PRECEED THE DAY OF THE LORD

    5. "The Day of the Lord" is ALWAYS IDENTIFIED AS A TIME OF ANGER AND WRATH

    That's not to say that people will not experience distress -- see Zeph 1:14. But even there is is described as a RESULT of God's active judgement and wrath against the nations. It does NOT read like a description of a period of great tribulation during which God simply PERMITS the antichrist to be successful and the consequential persecution.

     
  18. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    By the way...some direct responses:

    Of course I know that. And it would actually mean something if that was the only place you could find this chronology. But it isn't.

    These are not "observations" by John. The order of these events are clearly stated. THEN there will be great tribulation. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation there will be the celestial signs. The celestial signs will appear BEFORE the Day of the Lord. One cannot explain away or change this order without torturing the text.

    Zechariah 14:1-2 is actually the only quote you've provided that seems to suggest that the Day of the Lord encompasses the same period as the great tribulation. So let's have a look.

    First, while the definite article "the" exists in the Biblical Hebrew language, it is not used in this particular text in verse 1. (Other translations say "The day of the Lord - the NIV accurately says "A day of the Lord").

    But the NIV inaccurately assumes the word "when" in verse 1. This word also exists in Biblical Hebrew. But is not actually present in the text. There is no "when" in the text to connect "day of the Lord" to "plunder."

    These are the only two words that could twist the text to suggest that the Day of the Lord and the great tribulation are the same thing. When you strip them out, all you have left is a narrative of the great tribulation and the Day of the Lord which describes them IN THE SAME ORDER as Jesus did, and the same way I laid out the order using multiple texts.

    Contrast this exegesis with my use of Joel 2:31, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD." Here, the word "before" separates the order of the signs of the Day of the Lord with the actual event. In this case, however, the word DOES appear in the text. It has NOT been added by a translator.

    Huh? By the same reasoning, Hosea 2:23 could not possibly be talking about the body of Christ because it has not yet been revealed by Paul. Yet Paul quotes it in Romans as part of his revelation of the body of Christ.

     
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