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The Believers of the Great Tribulation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by carlaimpinge, Jun 4, 2002.

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  1. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    The biggest mess that a person can get into is confusing the believers of the great tribulation with the believers in the body of Christ, which is here today. My goodness, people! A simple reading of Romans through Philemon compared with the book of Revelation SHOWS something IS NOT exactly right. They don’t jive together.

    There are differences in teachings. There are differences in words. There are ideas FOREIGN to each other. The Lord Jesus is NOT viewed the same way in both books. The most important thing though, is that they are CONTRADICTORY. Paul contradicts John, like he does Moses. They didn’t TEACH the same things.

    There is NO mention of the body of Christ in John’s Revelation, and it is revealed, spoken about, and mentioned throughout the Pauline epistles. There is no seal in anyone’s forehead, who is in the body of Christ. Paul, the man to whom the mystery of the body was revealed, NEVER TAUGHT ANY such thing as DOCTRINE. No Gentiles are sealed in Revelation but they ARE in Ephesians. Yet, that sealing is not with the seal of God in the forehead, because ONLY JEWS in Revelation are stated to have THAT SEAL. No believer in the body of Christ is WAITING or promised to be able to EAT of some tree. Are you kidding? Paul doesn’t waste one minute of his time writing 4 words (the tree of life), to TEACH any DOCTRINE concerning the MENU of the leaves on this tree. (Rev.22) Why not, if we’re going to be eating of it? Why didn’t he talk about it in Romans 14, when he was discussing eating? Saved Jews are not a separate group, within the writings of Paul, as they are viewed, in the book of Revelation. They are spoken of us as ONE new man along with the Gentiles. (Eph.2) Jews within the body DO NOT sing songs, which the Gentiles CANNOT learn. Do you mean me to tell me there is ONLY 144,000 Jews, in the body of Christ? Are you a Jehovah Witness? Are you sure, you’re not? If not, WHY are they singled out? They’re DIFFERENT from the group of Rev.7, which are come from all nations, kindreds, tribes, and peoples, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER! The Jews are from the 12 TRIBES of Israel. Are you Garner Ted Armstrong? Are you sure, you’re not? I’m not a Jew. Why can’t I sing the song? It looks like there is some DISCRIMINATION going on here. Of course, there is!

    GOD has always discriminated! He has always segregated. The ONLY UNITY of a group of people you find is the body of Christ. The nation of Israel are SEPARATED, not ONLY from each other (in tribes, priest tribe, priest line), but also FROM the GENTILES. That is in either testament! (Num.23, Rev.7)

    Brethren, Paul and John are writing to believers which are in a DIFFERENT time period than each other. That is why there are so many discrepancies. THINGS DIFFERENT ARE NOT EQUAL! All this vain, ignorant blather that there are two groups of people, a saved group of believers called the body of Christ, and a lost body of unbelievers, is nonsense. Who doesn’t know that there are ultimately TWO TYPES of people. That is biblical duality in ANY form. We know that!

    To state though, that God has operated down throughout time, in the SAME MANNER as he does TODAY is the blind mutterings and peeps, of one, who cannot READ the Bible in his own language. I am speaking of the teaching of dispensationalism.

    Dispensation is a bible word, TAUGHT in the Bible, for it is a biblical doctrine, which is SOUND DOCTRINE, according to Paul. God operates differently down through time with mankind. He is a revealer of truth. He reveals it PROGRESSIVELY.

    Nobody today is killed for picking up sticks. (Num.15) Bears are not called out of the woods to attack and kill people who have insulted bald-headed preachers. (2 Kings 2) Dead people are not raised by the hands of apostles. (Acts 9) I don’t care what Benny Hinn says or “prophesies”. God is NOT OPERATING like that today. God IS NOT dealing with Israel, as a nation, TODAY, as he dealt, EXCLUSIVELY, with them in the PAST. (Ex.19,Acts 28, Rom.11, Eph.2) Signs and wonders are NO LONGER being performed. THE JEWS SEEK A SIGN! (1 Cor.1,14) Jesus said, “There shall be no sign given unto them, except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” (Matt.12) They couldn’t read the signs of his coming nor their judgment!

    SIGNS WILL REOCCUR though! Problem is, they will not be performed by God’s people, and if some are, HOW WILL YOU KNOW, which one’s are. (2 Thess.2, Rev.13, Matt.24) These SIGNS of Satan are ahead of us. This time, is the time of the great tribulation, the time of the woman in travail, according to Paul. A time called by Jeremiah and Daniel the prophet, whom the Lord Jesus quoted, as being, the time of Jacob’s trouble, the time of trouble. A time which, WE (the body of Christ) WILL ESCAPE! (1 Thess.5)

    God NEVER leaves himself without witness. Enter, the preachers of the great tribulation!

    Paul states at the revelation of the man of sin, as the son of perdition, the gathering of the Lord Jesus Christ will occur, and those who did not believe the gospel WILL believe a lie. (2 Thess.2) An image will be set up in the temple of God at Jerusalem, and people will FLEE to the mountains. (Matt.24)

    This OCCURS at the time when Satan is CAST DOWN out of heaven. (Rev.12) In the chapter, you find the manchild, the woman, and the remnant of her seed. The manchild is caught up, and is no longer on earth. The manchild is BORN BEFORE she flees into the wilderness. That leaves the woman and the remnant of her seed ON THE EARTH. The woman flees to the wilderness and is protected by God as she goes. The devil turns back and FOCUSES on the remnant of HER seed. The woman is Israel, and the remnant are some of her children LEFT, which did not go into the wilderness, nor were caught up. Why?

    THEY HAVE A JOB TO DO! They keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (Rev.12) The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy. THEY ARE PREACHERS! They prophesy! (Rev.19,1) That’s what preachers do. What are they preaching? They are preaching the gospel of the kingdom. (Matt.24) That is what is preached during the great tribulation.

    IT IS NOT the gospel of the grace of God, which Paul preached, and which every one who reads these words are supposed to preach today. (Acts 20:2 The gospel of the kingdom is the same message that was preached at the first coming of Christ. (Matt.3,4,10) It will be preached again before the second coming of Christ. It concerns NOTHING about his death, burial, and resurrection. The apostles DID NOT PREACH that until AFTER it occurred. They did not KNOW it or UNDERSTAND it, BEFORE it occurred. (Luke 1

    GET THAT DOWN! The gospel of the kingdom IS NOT the gospel of the grace of God. (1 Cor.15) Preachers in the great tribulation preach the kingdom message, preached by JOHN THE BAPTIST, the man, who could have been, ELIJAH the prophet, according to the Lord. (Matt.11) He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. NOW WHERE, did you ever see words like that before? You DID NOT see them in the Pauline epistles. You saw them in the Book of Revelation, written to the seven churches, not the church, which is his body. (Rev.2-3)

    These guys are preachers. The ONLY Jewish brethren left identified are those which you find within Revelation, the 144,000. They have the spirit of prophecy and they are sealed in the forehead with the seal of God. They are all male virgins. They are not corrupted by the spiritual or physical fornication of the times. (Rev.14,9,2) They are the servants, the prophets of their time, which have the spirit of prophecy, who are sealed in their foreheads. (Rev.11:18, 22: 4, 14:1-4, 7:1-4)

    We have IDENTIFED one group, which are in the great tribulation. They are the 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes, who preach for they have the spirit of prophecy. They will be preaching to the Gentiles. (Rev.7, Matt.24, 2

    Now besides the 144,000, we all know that there are two witnesses, which will be prophesying also. They are prophets also, which testify, for they have a testimony. (Rev.11) Scripture with scripture shows they are Moses and Elijah. The signs that they do VERIFY who they are. There is no Enoch, or anyone else. Both are mentioned in Malachi, in reference to the day of the Lord, and both show up at the Lord’s first coming. They will be there again. Never fear!

    They are NOT in the first half of Daniel’s week. I don’t know where people get that. They are there to withstand the son of perdition, as Moses and Aaron withstood Pharoah. (Ex.4-12) The SON of PERDITION kills them, and he does not show up until the midst of the week. They are killed right before the 7th trumpet, which is near the end of the tribulation, BEFORE the vials are poured out. (Rev.11,16)

    They are not one of the groups, but I thought I would mention them.

    The next group of believers is the great number, which no man could number of every nation, kindred, people, and tongue. These are Gentiles with Jews intermingled with them. They are the SAINTS of the great tribulation. (Rev.11:1 You say, well the servants are saints. Yes they are. But there are THREE classes of believers SEEN in Rev.11. There are one, thy servants the prophets; two, the saints, and three; them that fear thy name. They are NOT the same. They’re different.

    We’ve already identified the servants, the prophets, as the 144,000. The saints will be those of Rev.7. These are the ones, who hear the message preached by the 144,000 and believe. (Rev. 13:7,10, 14:12, 16:6,18:24) They are the OVERCOMERS of the 7 churches. They are being slaughtered for their faith. Notice how the saints are SEPARATE from the prophets, as I have said.

    The slaughter STARTS when the son of perdition takes power. Satan gives it to him over all kindreds, tongues, and nations. (Rev.13:6) This PROVES that the 4th seal is the coming (2 Thess.2) of the Wicked one, and the 5th seal is the slaughter of the saints, and not only them, but also of the prophets, who have the testimony. (Rev.6:8-11) There is some type of TIME GAP. Possibly six months.

    Moses and Elijah are possibly the LAST to be killed. Then the vials are poured out over a short period.

    We have identified two groups. The next are them that fear God. All through the OT, and in the early part of Acts, this was a reference to Gentiles who worshipped God. (Psalm 115,118,135, Acts 13,10)

    Besides this reference it should be pointed out that the people in the city SAW the two witnesses ascend into heaven, had great fear, and then gave glory to the God of heaven. (11:13) The other reference is a testament to the fact that the EVERLASTING GOSPEL is NOT the gospel which we preach TODAY, and it is preached by an angel. That’s WHY he can preach it. IT IS A DIFFERENT TIME PERIOD!

    The angel, (not an EAGLE!), preaches the everlasting gospel. (Rev.14) The message is , “Fear God, and give glory to him, for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heavene, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.”

    Brethren. That is NOT Paul’s gospel, as recorded in 1 Cor.15. This is ANYONE who hears the message.

    The final group of people, we have already mentioned. They fled into the wilderness at the start of the great tribulation. The woman of Rev.12, which is Israel, will be brought under the bond of the covenant, Ezekiel 20. See Ezekiel 36,37, Jer.33,50. They are brought into the NEW COVENANT (Heb.8,10) when Jesus Christ comes, (Acts 3), and their SINS are blotted out AS A NATION. This is the salvation of a nation. They are protected by God, as they leave. They LEAVE the IDOL. During this time of tribulation, God is dealing with them, AS HE DID, in the wilderness. They will be FED AGAIN, just like they were in Exodus. (Micah 7) The unbelievers will be PURGED out, just like they were in Exodus. (Malachi 3) They will SEE Christ and the Spirit will be poured out on them. (Isaiah 32,44 Joel 2, Zech.12) They are a NATION born in a day. (Isaiah 66) They are NOT born, UNTIL the end of the great tribulation, when Christ Jesus returns.

    These are the believers of the great tribulation. There is NO body of Christ seen within the book. It is NEVER mentioned by John. Why? It was GATHERED BEFORE the day of the Lord. (1 Thess.5, 2 Thess.2) The manchild, was a group of Jewish believers, who were already SAVED and caught up BEFORE the great tribulation. They were SAVED at Christ’s FIRST coming, and GATHERED. This gathering was a mystery revealed to Paul. (1 Cor.15, 1 Thess.4) They are PART of the body of Christ, the remnant, according to the election of grace, which Paul the apostle REVEALED. (Rom.9-11, Eph.2-3)
     
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  2. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    How could we Christians who will be in the tribulation after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body?
     
  3. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Your assumption is your error. As many of your errors you have posted in the past. There are no Christians stated to be IN THE TRIBULATION.

    Produce the verse of prooftext FOR YOUR STATEMENT.

    Response without prooftext as to your STATEMENT of fact will be taken as any statement by non Christians.

    Don't "base" your doctrine on "your own" unanswered questions and speculation of things you know nothing about and hope somebody will tell you.

    That's assumption and speculation, which surely LEADS to being a purveyor of false doctrine.

    The believers, AS I HAVE PROOFTEXTED in the post, are listed. They are named. (Rev.11) They are not called Christians. Read it.

    The overcomers are the saints of which you speak and it is DONE by martyrdom. (Rev.12:11)

    Martyrdom is NOT the basis one ENTERS the body of Christ. It is the baptism of the Spirit. (1 Cor.12)

    In the Lord is NOT a doctrinal term, MEANING, in the body of Christ, which YOU think it means. These believers, who DIE, in the text of Rev.14, believed the things which were preached by the 144,000 servants, his prophets. They died in faith, believing what the Lord has said. They died, IN THE LORD, believing what he had said.

    Psalms 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass

    Psalms 73:28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

    Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    Jeremiah 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.


    Acts 9:42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.

    Acts 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

    Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,


    The above passages have the statement but are NOT doctrinally stating anything about being IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.

    You're just searching.
     
  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    What religion are we who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord?" (Revelation 14:13)
     
  5. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Well, I'll be. The man, INSTEAD OF PROOFTEXTING HIS STATEMENT of ignorance goes "back" to redundancy. I have prooftexted mine.

    Such are the ways of sin and death.

    Teaching by supposition is not teaching. It's noodle belief in "alleging" the verses state what "you think" they should mean.
     
  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I would only suggest that you both take the gloves off, and simmer down a bit, before another war of words breaks out. Just a thought??
     
  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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  8. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    Go get em POSTRIB . The pre tribbers won't like what you said , you may have to get ready for battle . Then again , they may ban persons of postrib beliefs to another forum . ha ha ( beam me up scottie and beam me up now ) ha ha ha ha .
     
  9. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Sure you do.

    You believe it "without ANY verse of Scripture which states "those" people are Christians.

    You "STATE" that as gospel truth without ONE prooftext from the Bible. Utter foolishness.

    Christianity,IN THE BIBLE, is a concept which "originated" UNDER Pauline TEACHING, DOCTRINE, and INFLUENCE.

    Some people believe Mary has ascended INTO heaven (BEFORE the resurrection of the just), and is now making intercession for them at their request. It's just as good of a belief, AS YOURS. In fact, many people believe that. Can it be prooftexted? Don't be silly. No more than your's can.

    Believe what the BIBLE states, NOT what you "think or want" it to mean due to your theological system, and unbelief of what IS stated.
     
  10. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Does it state that we who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) are not Christian? What religion are we if not Christian?
     
  11. Yauming

    Yauming Member

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    Hello everyone,

    It is wrong when Christians start badgering each other and being disrespectful in their posts.

    Please show some Christian civility and courtesy- you're Christians for God sake. The Inquisition is over already.

    Cheers,

    Yau-ming
    Moderator
     
  12. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    Yauming . Don't be a stick in the mud , God has a sense of humour why don't you ?
     
  13. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Simply amazing.

    The man has "overlooked" every verse of scripture within this post on the subject. He cares nothing for what has been produced within the Book. I have IDENTIFIED what the believers are called BY THE BOOK, within the book of Revelation, but this man "WANTS" them called Christians, so he can prove HE AND OTHERS are in the great tribulation.

    He is so stuck, circular, and without reason, he has addressed, NONE of the other biblical statements within the post.

    He continues to STATE that the believers of Revelation are Christians.

    I ask for the prooftext, and get questions as to WHAT they are, and why they can't be anything else, but NO prooftext for his statement.

    He then decides it DOESN'T STATE they ARE Christians, so they MUST be! He ASKS for verses!?!?!?!? My, what learned biblical teaching.

    Ok. Then Peter shot his mother in law with a 38 pistol, AFTER she was healed from her headache, due to the fact Peter got one, AFTER she started singing, WHILE she was cleaning up the dishes after they all ate. (Matt.8:14-15)

    That is just as BIBLICAL and SCRIPTURAL as teaching that the believers WITHIN the great tribulation are called Christians without a prooftext.

    IDENTIFICATION separates the wise from the foolish.
     
  14. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Yauming,

    It is not being disrespectful to "identify" the errors of a man, and his teaching.

    I am TAUGHT to do this from the Bible.

    Yes, you're right, the man is a badgerer. He can't speak reasonably on any subject AFTER verses of prooftext are given. He resorts to redundancy and inane questions. Of course, the Bible shows that all questioning of the word of God STARTED with Satan. (Gen.3)

    I am very civil and courteous. In fact, more civil than the Lord, AFTER Peter had attacked the word of God. (Matt.16:21-23)

    This man follows me around, which I don't mind, posting his redundant answers, inane questions, and such like after my posts, to CONFOUND others who read the straightforward, prooftexted statements, which have been made.

    It does grow tiring answering his foolishness.

    But one has too. He might "overwhelm" others with his unstableness. (2 Peter 3)

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  15. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    Carlaimpinge .. The only errors in your mind , are those with an alternative view point to your own . God help anyone who dosn't agree with you .
     
  16. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

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    carlaimpinge : You speak of those that will come at the end of time to confuse. Show me then that it is not you that you speak of...

    Answer the question instead of merely insulting the questioner!!!!

    I have seen it happen many times before. People will figure out their own plan of the Gospel. They will use verses that tend to support their claims. The parts of the Bible that disagree with them ... they throw out!

    :) LOVE
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry you feel that my question is inane.

    Do you feel that I am questioning the Word itself, or that I am Satanic?

    I'm sorry you feel that I'm unstable.
     
  18. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Brian,

    Afraid not. Is that all the reasoning that you can come up with? Your statement about me is "Well, he just thinks he's right, and everybody else is wrong".

    My goodness. What a mess.

    Simple prooftexting STUMPS them everytime.

    They can't handle it.

    There's over 30 things stated by prooftext in the original post. Posttrib decided to tackle ONE, and made a statement, which he can't back up.

    It's that simple.

    He WILL NOT admit that. I will continue to identify his false statements and reasonings by the Book.

    Now, if you don't care to join in the doctrinal discussion, but ONLY want to give your "opinions" about me, personally, I will not respond to you anymore. What you think about me personally, has NO BEARING on any doctrinal proof set forth in this thread.

    Thank you.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  19. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Catchup,

    Whoa bud. Dont act stupid now, and become an intolerant bigot due to the fact that I can PROOFTEXT what I said. If you want to call me an apostate, prooftext the apostasy.

    If you had read the whole thread, YOU WOULD KNOW that his questions had been answered!

    Read it again.

    I have not "insulted" anyone,AS OF YET, but if you continue to say things like that, I most assuredly will ANSWER you.

    Thank you, and have a nice day.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  20. carlaimpinge

    carlaimpinge New Member

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    Well, it looks like he doesn't want to speak of the doctrine anymore, and wants to create a thread on my identification of him.

    They never can handle the verses.

    That's it. No more response. You tried to "make it" personal.
     
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