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LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

Ironhold

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Is it true that Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are Brothers?

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng

Everyone is the sibling of everyone else in the sense that we are all the children of God.

Critics of the LDS church love to deliberately distort this doctrine into the allegation you give above, as they know that it will shock people.

Do they believe man through works can be God or a God?

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/man-potential-to-become-like-heavenly-father?lang=eng

Do you mean to ask if we believe the Bible? Because if so, the answer is "yes".

What was Joseph Smiths view on the Free Masons?

The church has tried to maintain a fairly cordial relationship. Joseph Smith himself was one of several early members who were also Masons.

Did Joseph math consider himself a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek?

Yes.

Was Joseph Smith a mystic that found treasure with seer stones?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Legal_issues/Trials/1826_court_appearance_for_glasslooking

Contrary to what you might have been told, no documentation has come forth proving a guilty verdict. Rather, the documentation that was uncovered was the bill for the pre-trial hearing.

Would God be joined with a Harlot?

Is this intended as an insult?
 
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Ironhold

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Joseph Smith claims both of these events with a twist , Did Smith consider himself to be Christ returning to earth?

No.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

Rather, by his own word, he says that he was visited by Jesus, who was in the company of Heavenly Father, and given his commission.

John The Baptist appeared in order to restore the proper authority to baptize.


And as far as CARM goes, few people outside of very select circles take them seriously. I'd suggest finding another resource.
 
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FreeinChrist

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https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng

Everyone is the sibling of everyone else in the sense that we are all the children of God.

Critics of the LDS church love to deliberately distort this doctrine into the allegation you give above, as they know that it will shock people.

The LDS church believes we are all spirit children of God, therefore even Lucifer is a child of God prior to his fall. Christian belief is that Satan is a created angel, and was a 'covering angel' prior his fall. Christ is not created, and has lived eternally in the past and will eternally in the future and was always the second Person of the Trinity.
That the angels are created and that we are not pre-existent as spirit children, means we are not "brothers" with angels. That we are children of God has to do with our relationship in faith with God.


https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/man-potential-to-become-like-heavenly-father?lang=eng

Do you mean to ask if we believe the Bible? Because if so, the answer is "yes".
But not that it is enough as a whole book was added, though parts of it look to be plagerized from the KJV.
 
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FreeinChrist

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No.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

Rather, by his own word, he says that he was visited by Jesus, who was in the company of Heavenly Father, and given his commission.

John The Baptist appeared in order to restore the proper authority to baptize.


And as far as CARM goes, few people outside of very select circles take them seriously. I'd suggest finding another resource.

Actually, quite a few take them seriously.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Jesus is Spirit but He is not the Holy Ghost. Heavenly Father is Spirit but He is not the Holy Ghost. You are spirit but you are not the Holy Ghost.
There are many spirits but there is only one Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is one of Heavenly Father's Sons. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Brothers. Father is God. Son is God. The Holy Ghost is God. Three of Them are one Godhead.
Here is your straight answer. If I am wrong my brothers and sisters will correct me.


Now this is a good explanation as to why the LDS cannot be considered Trinitarian or orthodox.

Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 'brothers'? wow.
 
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withwonderingawe

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That the angels are created and that we are not pre-existent as spirit children, means we are not "brothers" with angels.

You teach there are three kinds of beings, God who is one of kind, angels with wings etc and then mankind, mortal and evil.

We teach there is only one kind of being and they all make up on eternal family of heaven and earth, Eph 3:14-15.


We’ll start with;
Rev 12
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
……And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

What is this talking about? Who are the brothers

Two examples;
Zech
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Job 1
6 ¶Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Satan’s original calling was to be the accuser, it wasn’t an evil calling. In the pre-earth life he was to give opposition, to ask is this person worthy of the calling?(see Jer 1) After time he became angry with the situation and tried to replace Jesus.

Obviously we are the angels brothers.

Here is another passage

Rev 1
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

And then Job 38

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Morning ‘stars’ as in plural. One of Jesus titles is “the morning star” Rev 22:16. And Lucifer is also known as the morning star or star of dawn. See Isa 14:12 in the Hebrew. These two stars, brothers, sang together at the foundation of the world along with the other Sons of God.

Luke 3: 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Adam was there along with the rest of us.

“ Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” John 20
 
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withwonderingawe

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Why would God give another revelation of Jesus Christ ,

Why not, why wouldn't God want all peoples to hear his message? Why wouldn't he want to give us all the messages of Christ he can?
 
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FreeinChrist

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You teach there are three kinds of beings, God who is one of kind, angels with wings etc and then mankind, mortal and evil.

We teach there is only one kind of being and they all make up on eternal family of heaven and earth, Eph 3:14-15.


We’ll start with;
Rev 12
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
……And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

What is this talking about? Who are the brothers

Two examples;
Zech
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Job 1
6 ¶Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Satan’s original calling was to be the accuser, it wasn’t an evil calling. In the pre-earth life he was to give opposition, to ask is this person worthy of the calling?(see Jer 1) After time he became angry with the situation and tried to replace Jesus.

Obviously we are the angels brothers.

Here is another passage

Rev 1
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

And then Job 38

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Morning ‘stars’ as in plural. One of Jesus titles is “the morning star” Rev 22:16. And Lucifer is also known as the morning star or star of dawn. See Isa 14:12 in the Hebrew. These two stars, brothers, sang together at the foundation of the world along with the other Sons of God.

Luke 3: 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Adam was there along with the rest of us.

“ Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” John 20


Yes, I understand that you are presenting the LDS view. From the orthodox Christian view, though, based on scripture, that is inaccurate.
I wish I had the time to debate it.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Yes, I understand that you are presenting the LDS view. From the orthodox Christian view, though, based on scripture, that is inaccurate.
I wish I had the time to debate it.
Pardon me, but WWA just quoted a bunch of scriptures showing the Biblical basis for the LDS claim.
Meanwhile, I don't find many verses explaining a multiple sentient species as described by mainstream Christian theology.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Pardon me, but WWA just quoted a bunch of scriptures showing the Biblical basis for the LDS claim.
Meanwhile, I don't find many verses explaining a multiple sentient species as described by mainstream Christian theology.
But, it is a superficial understanding of the the scriptures she referenced.
 
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Peter1000

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But, it is a superficial understanding of the the scriptures she referenced.
Superficial???

Are they superficial because you don't read or study these scriptures very often, or are they superficial because they don't meet with your agenda of how things are?

It would be our pleasure to go below the surface and study what these scriptures might mean to you. It all depends on how deep below the surface you want to go and what other scriptures there are to back up these scriptures.

To just make a statement like, 'she just has a superficial understanding of these scriptures is not worthy of your scriptural mastery. You need to educate us as to the real meaning of these verses. I look forward to that explanation.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Superficial???

Are they superficial because you don't read or study these scriptures very often, or are they superficial because they don't meet with your agenda of how things are?

I have been studying scriptures and have been exposed to LDS teaching for many, many years. For 30 years, I worked and lived among Mormons who sought to convert me.

But the topic is not me, Peter1000. I see the viewpoint that was expressed as superficial. It comes off as parroting what one was told the scriptures mean as opposed to looking in a more inductive manner - like what type of scripture was it (history, prophecy, etc), who it was to, what it refers to, what is the context of the verse (major important), for instance. One can use a single verse of a group of verses out of context to support quite a few odd beliefs.

It would be our pleasure to go below the surface and study what these scriptures might mean to you. It all depends on how deep below the surface you want to go and what other scriptures there are to back up these scriptures.

To just make a statement like, 'she just has a superficial understanding of these scriptures is not worthy of your scriptural mastery. You need to educate us as to the real meaning of these verses. I look forward to that explanation.
I already wrote that I am limited in time - in part by being on staff here, in part that I will be traveling around the US shortly from where I mostly live, in part because I have a parent that needs to sell a house and move in assisted living and more.

When there is time.
 
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Peter1000

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I have been studying scriptures and have been exposed to LDS teaching for many, many years. For 30 years, I worked and lived among Mormons who sought to convert me.

But the topic is not me, Peter1000. I see the viewpoint that was expressed as superficial. It comes off as parroting what one was told the scriptures mean as opposed to looking in a more inductive manner - like what type of scripture was it (history, prophecy, etc), who it was to, what it refers to, what is the context of the verse (major important), for instance. One can use a single verse of a group of verses out of context to support quite a few odd beliefs.


I already wrote that I am limited in time - in part by being on staff here, in part that I will be traveling around the US shortly from where I mostly live, in part because I have a parent that needs to sell a house and move in assisted living and more.

When there is time.
If you have lived around the Mormons for 30 years then you will have an advantage of most mainstream Christians.

I look forward to our discussion. Hope all goes well for you. It seems you have a busy life.
 
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fatboys

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Oops! I already provided the information.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves dteachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
 
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