LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

withwonderingawe said:

For every true prophet God sends Satan will send dozens of false ones.

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Yes I'm sure the followers of the other "prophets" would say the same.

NYCGuy said:

Yes I'm sure the followers of the other "prophets" would say the same.

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Christ said beware of false prophets. He didn't say there were not going to be true ones. It was taken for granted that there going to be true ones after his death. I fact there were until they were all killed.

fatboys said:

Let's take a look at what a apostasy might look like.
The most important evidence that a apostasy took place is the solis fact that there are thousands of different denominations claiming that they are the most correct. And how many churches did Jesus organize?
The next would be prophets and apostles. Where are the prophets and apostles? You have religious people call themselves ministers evangelicals priests bishops elders clergy teachers but no prophets or apostles.
Next is authority. Even if the priesthood did not exist where does a person get his authority from God? He feels like he should serve? He was given a sign that he should serve? Both of which are frowned upon by Christians because you cannot rely or trust either. More later

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dzheremi answered spectacularly, but I will add that Revelation tells of seven different churches, each with their own issues he has with them. Doesn't mean any or all of them apostasized.

withwonderingawe said:

For every true prophet God sends Satan will send dozens of false ones.

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Since there is a Biblical test for prophets, it can be determined who is a "true" one or not. Guess what? Joseph Smith failed the test. No make up exams offered.

1John 3
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God

In John 1 it is Nathanael who would have been speaking in Aramaic who tells us just who Jesus is ; "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God/El; thou art the King of Israel/Yahweh" Later he calls himself 'I am', John 8:58. So Jesus is the spirit Yahweh, God of Israel and Son of El. He came to this earth taking on the flesh of mortality. Anyone one who denies this is not of God.

So we have to look at what these people taught; Ellen G. White, Charles Taze Russell, L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith

White and the Seventh Day Adventist teach that Jesus is Michael the archangel.

Russell believed in the divinity of Christ, but differed from orthodoxy by teaching Jesus had received that divinity as a gift from the Father after dying on the cross. He also taught that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but the manifestation of God's power.

Hubbard; In confidential materials Hubbard attacked Christianity as an 'implant,' and said that Christ was a fiction."
Hubbard is quoted as stating that Christianity evolved from the "R6 Implant": "The man on the cross. There was no Christ! The Roman Catholic Church, through watching the dramatizations of people picked up some little fragments of R6." (I'm not sure what that even means)

Joseph Smith; Throughout the Book of Mormon there references to Jesus being Yahweh. In Mosiah 3:8 he says
"And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, ....And lo, he cometh unto his own(Israel) , that salvation might come unto the children of men"

In 3 Nephi 15 Jesus tells the people " Behold, I am he that gave the law, and I am he who covenanted with my people Israel; therefore, the law in me is fulfilled, for I have come to fulfil the law; therefore it hath an end."

On April 3, 1836 Joseph and Oliver had a revelation and vision in the Kirtland Temple
"We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit,.... even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father."

So Joseph taught that Jesus is the Yahweh just as John taught and he taught He came in the flesh to this earth. So according to John 3 "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God" Joseph qualifies as being of God.

withwonderingawe said:

I see you're new, you missed my long theses. No one refuted it, not even an attempt to refute it!

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You have a long theses that can not be refuted?


What facts are the primary objective of your theses?
Where can I find your theses ?

Does the Mormon religion teach Christ and Satan are brothers?

now faith said:

Does the Mormon religion teach Christ and Satan are brothers?

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There's a like 100 page thread on it from not too long ago. Read till your heart's content.

now faith said:

Does the Mormon religion teach Christ and Satan are brothers?

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We teach that God the Father organized all the intelligences of light into spirits. Yahweh is the first born of those spirit children. All the rest of the spirits came after that including Gabriel, Michael, you, me and yes Lucifer. Lucifer was known has Son of Dawn or 'the morning star' oddly enough Jesus is also known as 'the morning star'. In Job 38 speaking about the foundation of the world it says " When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" These two sons sang together when the world was first proposed and founded but then Lucifer rebelled. He wanted to be above the stars of God he wanted to sit in God's throne.

D&C 76
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

fatboys said:

So you believe that a supreme being has always existed which had no beginning and will have no end. We believe that. What we don't believe is in is a supreme being who floated around in a void of nothing until this being decided to create something from nothing. That this supreme being has all knowledge and power while being in this void of nothing with no knowledge of how this supreme being gained all knowledge and power. I think I would rather believe in a God who promise his creations the chance to be perfect as he is and the ways to sccomplish it

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No, "you" may believe that "a" supreme being has always existed, but that's not the LDS official belief. LDS mormonism believes supreme BEINGS (plural) have always existed which do have a beginning, and its unknown if they will ever have an end.

fatboys said:

God is a title given to a being who has all knowledge and power. God has always existed two ways. Our Heavenly Father went through the same process of progression that we are now going through. We believe that everyone that exists has always existed. We are co eternal with our Father. That we have been on a path of progression long before the worlds were. We believe that before we were born into this world we existed as spirits. While living as spirits we lived with our Father in Heaven. We became spirits when our Father created spirit bodies. Before we were spirits we were intelligences. We don't know to much about intelligences but that they have always existed as does all matter that is contained in this universe as well as other universes. When we had progressed far enough God our Heavenly Father took that intelligence and placed it into a perfect immortal spirit body. So let me recap. We existed as a individual intelligence. When we had progressed far enough Heavenly Father took that intelligence and placed it into a individual perfect immortal spirit body. As a spirit body we gained more knowledge we couldn't as a intelligence. We are literally children of our Father in heaven. When we had progressed to the point we could no longer progress Heavenly Father created this earth through his Son Jesus Christ. They created a perfect physical body for Adam who under the direction of the Father helped with the creation. Adam and Eve then had a physical perfect body that would not die.

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What did the first mormon god "go through" considering there were no humans around to create him?

tickingclocker said:

No, "you" may believe that "a" supreme being has always existed, but that's not the LDS official belief. LDS mormonism believes supreme BEINGS (plural) have always existed which do have a beginning, and its unknown if they will ever have an end.

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No we don't the intelligence or light within you and Jesus and all beings has always existed
D&C 93: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

withwonderingawe said:

No we don't the intelligence or light within you and Jesus and all beings has always existed
D&C 93: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

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"The lamp of the body is the eye. If your eye is unclouded, your whole body will be lit up; but, if your eye is diseased, your whole body will be darkened. And, if the inner light is darkness, how intense must that darkness be!" (Matt 6:22, 23)

Jesus again addressed the people. “I Am the Light of the World,” He said. “He who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the Light of Life.” (John 8:12)

Obviously Light is not in everyone, or Jesus wouldn't have given a condition for walking in Light. Spiritual intelligence is dispensed from ABOVE, and at God's pleasure. It has never been standard human equipment, like lungs, breathing, the ability to move--according to God. I'd say that the totality of human history backs that statement up without doubt considering the human perchance of believing "our version" of God's Truth, and not.... God's Truth. Without salvation through Jesus Christ humans remain in the dark in what "spiritual truth" consists of.

Or was Jesus lying here?

However, your response skips around the fact that LDS mormonism believes there are supreme "BEINGS (plural)" which have "always" existed--which do have a beginning. Not just one Being, as in the Christian's One True God of all creation everywhere. According to mormonism your gods require bodies in order to function. That fact essentially eliminates the LDS* Mormon's version of God as perfect. The Christian's One True God, as Spirit, has no need of anything or anyone to exist, let alone function. That makes Him perfect.

*Only LDS Mormons believe there are multiple gods. No other branch of mormonism agrees with this belief.

It always astounds me when seeing Mormons defending prophets are "needed" today. What are they taught the theme of the bible is all about anyway? Mormonism? It IS entirely about the coming of Jesus Christ, the Glory of God's provision for eternal salvation. EVERY prophet prophesied of His coming. He has come. Any reason why we still need prophecy today, when He has been freely available to anyone who wishes to accept Him as Savior ever since? Is Mormon prophecy now used for "spiritual advice" perhaps? I've studied some of the various "prophecies" of the LDS. They don't speak of Jesus Christ's coming. How can they? He's already here! In fact, they seldom speak of Jesus at all. Instead they focus on what's best for LDS interests, not for greater humanity's best interests. So unlike prophets of biblical times. Why? The only times we see prophets dispensing spiritual advice is to admonish or condemn, addressing a specific sin (ex. Nathan with David) in order to turn the heart back to the Lord. Not give generic advice.

And mind, I have also criticized Christian churches which abuse "prophecy" being used for "spiritual advice", too.

It's so obvious that mormonism uses the idea of prophecy in order to modify what JS created in his belief system, or what he failed to address in his belief system. In other words, when necessary it fills mormonism's holes whenever brought to public light, or, it is (more often than not) used to rehash biblical points mormonism-style. For instance, JS's "prophecies" during the MO period say NOTHING. Mormons defend his prophecy that Jesus would return in his lifetime as hinging on specific details----that never materialized. Now why would God have a prophet specifically prophesy something that would not come true, holding no real worth to anyone? What possible use could it have had?

Why did I focus on this subject when the subject is how Mormon gods began? Simple. The more you study mormonism the more it makes no sense. Why? The essentials never appear. The entire religious scheme of JS skips around glaring elemental subjects. WHY prophesy when nothing is being said? WHY create multiple gods when one perfect one would be completely sufficient for ours or any other universe if they exist? Such things are never addressed by Mormons. But when they finally---FINALLY!---are?

The prefix "EX" has an insistent way of showing up.

dzheremi said:

Well that's convenient.

Who were these true prophets between the time that Christ said that and the coming of Joseph Smith? I'd like to read up on them, if possible.

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You have a microscopic history of the most perfect being ever to have lived on earth written not at the time he was alive but the earliest was forty years after the fact and you want to believe that it is going to have every aspect of what happened that the writers new about get real.

dzheremi said:

Fatboys, please don't quote my posts unless you have something to directly answer them with. Your latest 'reply' is darn near an abuse of this website's alert system, and I don't post things so that you can quote them and then go on irrelevant tangents about garbage.

I will ask you again: Who were these true prophets between the time that Christ said that and the coming of Joseph Smith?

If you don't have specific people in mind, that's fine. Just say so. But if there are actual people to be studied up on, I'd like to do so. I'm asking for actual information, not polemical potshots that have nothing to do with anything.

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Lol you have got to be kidding. I told you that there is very little history written about Jesus and you come back on me? If there is only the smallest amount wrtten on Jesus why would you think there would be historical writings about false prophets.

tickingclocker said:

No, "you" may believe that "a" supreme being has always existed, but that's not the LDS official belief. LDS mormonism believes supreme BEINGS (plural) have always existed which do have a beginning, and its unknown if they will ever have an end.

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Wrong. LDS doctrine, or LDS official belief if you prefer, is that God has always existed.

Spencer W. Kimball included this as part of his 1972 talk about the priesthood. "It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity." There are great many sources of the official belief that clearly state that God has always existed. You are falsely accusing LDS participants of this forum of inserting their personal beliefs into this matter.

This is taken from LDS.org which contains the LDS official beliefs. The article discusses Section 93 of the Doctrine and Covenants. “Inteligence or the Light of truth was not created or made neither indeed can be.”6 In other words, the spirits of mortal men and women were as eternal as God Himself."


However, it does continue to amuse me that people think they know our doctrines better than we do.