LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

[dzheremi]

In a recent thread on the LDS concept of God, an LDS poster stated that "God had a father, who had a father, who had a father..." (and so on), which has me wondering: if God/gods in Mormonism are all the result of this kind of reproduction, then where does Mormonism's original God figure come from?

In Christianity, God is not made by anyone such that it would be appropriate to have this 'chain of reproduction'. The Nicene Creed is very clear on this, stating that Christ is begotten, not made (read: He is not made as the rest of are of human seed). And of course God the Father is not made or begotten in any sense, but rather has begotten Christ (His Logos), and has sent the Holy Spirit. But if Mormonism by contrast says God has a father, who has a father, who has a father, and so on back through the ages, then it seems that there must be someone who is the 'first father', so to speak. Who is this, according to Mormon theology?

And if there isn't such a figure in Mormon theology, then what does it mean to say that God "has a father, who has a father, who has a father, etc."?

This is a huge, in fact I would go so far as to say insurmountable theological difference between Mormonism and Christianity, and one for which I have never seen much of an answer from any Mormon source. I'm assuming that the answer is out there and I just haven't found it yet, so I'd be interested to hear any Mormon's opinion on this. Thank you.

 

[Inkfingers]

The Nicene Creed is very clear on this, stating that Christ is begotten, not made (read: He is not made as the rest of are of human seed).

A potter has a child; he makes pots but he begot his child.

 

[dzheremi]

What do mean by that, inkfingers? Christ is the Only-Begotten Son of God, in contrast to all men who are born of human parents in the natural way. It's not a matter of His being begotten by analogy to the birth of all other men (potters or otherwise), as the very point is that His birth is unlike any other.

"Was not Abel born of Adam, Enoch of Jared, Noah of Lamech, Abraham of Terah, Isaac of Abraham, and Jacob of Isaac? Was not Judah begotten by Jacob and Moses and Aaron by Ameram? Was not Samuel the son of Elkanah, David of Jesse, Solomon of David, Hezekiah of Ahaz, Josiah of Amon, Isaiah of Amos, Jeremiah of Hilkiah and Ezekiel of Buzi? Had not each of these a father as author of his being? So who is He that is born of a virgin only, that sign of which the prophet makes so much?" -- St. Athanasius the Apostolic, On the Incarnation

The Mormon idea whereby "God had a father, who had a father, who had a father, etc." would seem to give God the Father a similar lineage via other Gods! So it is right to ask where all this comes from, as it is alien to basic Christian theological principles as laid down by the fathers, as above.

 

[dzheremi]

Mormonism, by the way, also teaches that Christ is the Only-Begotten, according to their official website.

 

[Inkfingers]

What do mean by that, inkfingers?

Just that you seemed to be implying that humans are not begotten (from other humans) but are somehow 'made', and that this is not correct.

The Mormon idea whereby "God had a father, who had a father, who had a father, etc." would seem to give God the Father a similar lineage via other Gods! So it is right to ask where all this comes from, as it is alien to basic Christian theological principles as laid down by the fathers, as above.

Indeed. I am not challenging your challenging of this, just the strange phraseology of an earlier point that you made.

 

[dzheremi]

Just that you seemed to be implying that humans are not begotten (from other humans) but are somehow 'made', and that this is not correct.

Um...I was writing about Christ, not other humans. Forgive me, I thought I made that clear in the post in question: Christ is not made of human seed, as the rest of us are.

As to the difference between 'begotten' and 'made', this is perhaps slightly clearer in the original 325 version of the Creed (because the relevant section is shortened in the Constantinopolitan version of 381, since everyone knew what the phraseology meant by that time), where it is specified that that Christ is the only-begotten, "that is, from the substance of the Father", against those Arians who said that He is uniquely made by the Father as one of His creations and thereby a lesser being, rather than being of one substance with Him.

 

[Inkfingers]

Um...I was writing about Christ, not other humans. Forgive me, I thought I made that clear in the post in question: Christ is not made of human seed, as the rest of us are.

We are not 'made' of human seed (this is a discussion on the difference between 'made' and 'begotten') but are begotton of human seed; you were just mixing your terms.

 

[dzheremi]

Ahhh, now I see what you mean. I was confused, because the point of the post was not to talk about people except to point out how Christ is different than us in this regard (hence the quote from St. Athanasius in response, which makes this point). We as human beings are the result of the union of men and women. Jesus Christ is not. That's the key point.

But this is all fairly off topic, given that there is no sense by which it is appropriate to speak of Christ or God the Father as being made or created (two possible translations of the Greek of the Creed, ποιηθέντα). So whether we are talking about 'making' things as a potter fashions pottery, or creation via the normative mechanism of human reproduction, these cannot be applied to God. Mormonism apparently feels differently, hence this thread.

 

[Inkfingers]

Getting back to the Mormons (who, I have to say, I like because they in general make excellent neighbours and fellow citizens) their vision iirc of the Father is that the Father was once the son of another Father (who himself was the son of a further Father...and so onwards...). Meaning that one day, in LDS theology, Jesus will become a Father of a new Son who one day will himself become a Father.

Which reminds me greatly of pagan theologies in which the son replaces a father in such a cycle; consider Uranus being the father of Chronos who replaced him as father, begot his own son Zeus, and in time was replaced by Zeus when the latter himself became the new father.

 

[fatboys]

So you believe that a supreme being has always existed which had no beginning and will have no end. We believe that. What we don't believe is in is a supreme being who floated around in a void of nothing until this being decided to create something from nothing. That this supreme being has all knowledge and power while being in this void of nothing with no knowledge of how this supreme being gained all knowledge and power. I think I would rather believe in a God who promise his creations the chance to be perfect as he is and the ways to sccomplish it

 

[Rescued One]

Mormonism, by the way, also teaches that Christ is the Only-Begotten, according to their official website.

Actually, they say he is the only begotten in the flesh.

Doctrine and Covenants 76
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The more you study Mormonism, the less simplicity there is in Christ.

As for information about the first God, they don't concern themselves with him.

 

[dzheremi]

So you believe that a supreme being has always existed which had no beginning and will have no end. We believe that. What we don't believe is in is a supreme being who floated around in a void of nothing until this being decided to create something from nothing. That this supreme being has all knowledge and power while being in this void of nothing with no knowledge of how this supreme being gained all knowledge and power. I think I would rather believe in a God who promise his creations the chance to be perfect as he is and the ways to sccomplish it

Disregarding the slander against Christianity and mischaracterization of Christian theology, what I get from this is that Mormonism's god has no beginning and no end, and yet also is the product of a father (and presumably a mother?), such that it is appropriate to say, as the other Mormon poster said, that "God had a father, who had a father, who had a father". Is this correct to say, according to Mormon theology?

If so, do you not see a contradiction in saying that he has no beginning, and yet also saying that he has a father, who had a father, who had a father, etc.? Particularly in light of the Mormon rejection of the homoousian reality of the Holy Trinity. I don't really see how it is possible that the Mormon god could have a father who had a father and so on without god also having a beginning, since he has predecessors in form of other gods from whom he descends.

Can you explain to me how this is supposed to work?

 

[fatboys]

Actually, they say he is the only begotten in the flesh.

Doctrine and Covenants 76
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The more you study Mormonism, the less simplicity there is in Christ.

As for information about the first God, they don't concern themselves with him.

the only God we know and have anything to do with is our Heavenly Father through his son Jesus Christ

 

[dzheremi]

What do you make of the statement in the D&C then, fatboys? How are there other begotten sons and daughters of God, as per the passage that Phoebe Ann posted, and yet also Christ is somehow the Only-Begotten, as per the link I posted?

 

[Rescued One]

Disregarding the slander against Christianity and mischaracterization of Christian theology, what I get from this is that Mormonism's god has no beginning and no end, and yet also is the product of a father (and presumably a mother?), such that it is appropriate to say, as the other Mormon poster said, that "God had a father, who had a father, who had a father". Is this correct to say, according to Mormon theology?

If so, do you not see a contradiction in saying that he has no beginning, and yet also saying that he has a father, who had a father, who had a father, etc.? Particularly in light of the Mormon rejection of the homoousian reality of the Holy Trinity. I don't really see how it is possible that the Mormon god could have a father who had a father and so on without god also having a beginning, since he has predecessors in form of other gods from whom he descends.

Can you explain to me how this is supposed to work?

In Mormonism every single "creation" was made with eternally existing matter. No ex nihilio. So everything has no beginning or end. The matter had no beginning and will have no end. Man is the same species as God. I had to get away from that religion! Sometimes even repeating what they teach or have taught, shall I say, sets my teeth on edge.

 

[Rescued One]

the only God we know and have anything to do with is our Heavenly Father through his son Jesus Christ

Is the Holy Spirit not God?

 

[fatboys]

Disregarding the slander against Christianity and mischaracterization of Christian theology, what I get from this is that Mormonism's god has no beginning and no end, and yet also is the product of a father (and presumably a mother?), such that it is appropriate to say, as the other Mormon poster said, that "God had a father, who had a father, who had a father". Is this correct to say, according to Mormon theology?

If so, do you not see a contradiction in saying that he has no beginning, and yet also saying that he has a father, who had a father, who had a father, etc.? Particularly in light of the Mormon rejection of the homoousian reality of the Holy Trinity. I don't really see how it is possible that the Mormon god could have a father who had a father and so on without god also having a beginning, since he has predecessors in form of other gods from whom he descends.

Can you explain to me how this is supposed to work?

God is a title given to a being who has all knowledge and power. God has always existed two ways. Our Heavenly Father went through the same process of progression that we are now going through. We believe that everyone that exists has always existed. We are co eternal with our Father. That we have been on a path of progression long before the worlds were. We believe that before we were born into this world we existed as spirits. While living as spirits we lived with our Father in Heaven. We became spirits when our Father created spirit bodies. Before we were spirits we were intelligences. We don't know to much about intelligences but that they have always existed as does all matter that is contained in this universe as well as other universes. When we had progressed far enough God our Heavenly Father took that intelligence and placed it into a perfect immortal spirit body. So let me recap. We existed as a individual intelligence. When we had progressed far enough Heavenly Father took that intelligence and placed it into a individual perfect immortal spirit body. As a spirit body we gained more knowledge we couldn't as a intelligence. We are literally children of our Father in heaven. When we had progressed to the point we could no longer progress Heavenly Father created this earth through his Son Jesus Christ. They created a perfect physical body for Adam who under the direction of the Father helped with the creation. Adam and Eve then had a physical perfect body that would not die.

 

[dzheremi]

God is a title given to a being who has all knowledge and power.

God is a title?

God has always existed two ways. Our Heavenly Father went through the same process of progression that we are now going through. We believe that everyone that exists has always existed. We are co eternal with our Father.

So what differentiates the Mormon God from his creation? Is it just that he is farther along in the progression than you, or is there anything about his being that is not also true of yourselves, according to Mormon theology?

That we have been on a path of progression long before the worlds were. We believe that before we were born into this world we existed as spirits. While living as spirits we lived with our Father in Heaven. We became spirits when our Father created spirit bodies. Before we were spirits we were intelligences. We don't know to much about intelligences but that they have always existed as does all matter that is contained in this universe as well as other universes.

So these intelligences, whatever they are, are a form of physical matter?

When we had progressed far enough God our Heavenly Father took that intelligence and placed it into a perfect immortal spirit body. So let me recap. We existed as a individual intelligence. When we had progressed far enough Heavenly Father took that intelligence and placed it into a individual perfect immortal spirit body. As a spirit body we gained more knowledge we couldn't as a intelligence. We are literally children of our Father in heaven. When we had progressed to the point we could no longer progress Heavenly Father created this earth through his Son Jesus Christ. They created a perfect physical body for Adam who under the direction of the Father helped with the creation. Adam and Eve then had a physical perfect body that would not die.

This is...interesting.

This is mainstream LDS theology, I take it?

I don't really know what to say. I want to respect your right to your own theology of course, but I don't really know what to say. I meant this thread to be a discussion of Mormon theology, which I guess it still is, but I guess I wasn't prepared for the LDS creation story. It's really something else.

The bit about spirit bodies or intelligences existing before the world was created reminds me a little bit of the Scientology narrative, as they also have a similar belief that there were spirits preexisting in the universe before the foundation of the world, which at that time attached themselves to bodies. My reaction to that, as to this, is that I don't really understand it. It's interesting as a piece of background knowledge about that religion though, I suppose, just as this is. So thank you.

 

[fatboys]

God is a title?



So what differentiates the Mormon God from his creation? Is it just that he is farther along in the progression than you, or is there anything about his being that is not also true of yourselves, according to Mormon theology?



So these intelligences, whatever they are, are a form of physical matter?



This is...interesting.

This is mainstream LDS theology, I take it?

I don't really know what to say. I want to respect your right to your own theology of course, but I don't really know what to say. I meant this thread to be a discussion of Mormon theology, which I guess it still is, but I guess I wasn't prepared for the LDS creation story. It's really something else.

The bit about spirit bodies or intelligences existing before the world was created reminds me a little bit of the Scientology narrative, as they also have a similar belief that there were spirits preexisting in the universe before the foundation of the world, which at that time attached themselves to bodies. My reaction to that, as to this, is that I don't really understand it. It's interesting as a piece of background knowledge about that religion though, I suppose, just as this is. So thank you.

This pre existance was taught I the bible but was lost. The early church. Fathers taught this concept as well but has long since been replace and influenced by outside sources such as the Greeks and Romans and others.

 

[Jane_Doe]

So what differentiates the Mormon God from his creation? Is it just that he is farther along in the progression than you, or is there anything about his being that is not also true of yourselves, according to Mormon theology?

Why not to worship God: because of the substance He's made out of.

Why worship God: out of love for His endless love, sacrifice, Perfection, endless mercy, endless justice, etc.