The Beast that was and is not identified

[endofdayz]

The Bible talks about the beast that was and is not, yet is in Revelation 17. John also gave us clues as to who this might be.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This tells us that this beast was alive, he's not alive now(at the time John wrote this) but he will live again most likely in the body of a present day leader.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

This is pretty clear and in this case John predicted the short reign of Nerva.

The one that is would have been Domitian. Nerva was Emperor after Domitian for 15 months. Who were the 5 that had fallen?

Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian and Titus.

Now the first 3 before Vespasian and Nerva ruled for short periods of time. Vespasian, Titus and Domitian had the biggest impact on the Jews.

Titus destroyed the 2nd Temple in 70 A.D under Vespasian as Emperor.

He wanted to capture the Temple for Rome and put Roman gods in it but it was on fire so he decided to destroy it in such a way that Jerusalem would be forgotten. Just like Jesus predicted.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, “See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

The wailing wall isn't the site of the 2nd Temple. Neither is the Temple Mount. The Temple Mount is an old Roman fort. I think the Temple was in the City of David.

The Bible said, he will be an eighth king but part of the 7. It also says this 8th king will be the one of the 7 that ascends out of the bottomless pit. I believe the beast will ascend and enter the body of the beast that get's the deadly wound that's healed.

Now, out of these 7, I think it will be Vespasian, Titus or Domitian. Like I said, Titus destroyed the 2nd Temple, Vespasian would throw Jews in the water to see if they float and Domitian was a tyrant. It could be any 1 of the 7 though.

 

[Christian Gedge]

You are conflating ‘beast’ empire with human leader of that empire. Yes, Domitian et al were ‘antichrists’ but we need to differentiate between ‘beasts’ and ‘antichrists’.

 

[Lost4words]

Nero....

 

[DavidPT]

Nero....

Who in relation to Nero at the time fits the 2nd beast, the false prophet?

 

[Kenneth Heck]

There happens to be a legend widely held during the early centuries that Nero would return to rule again.
The Legendary Return of Nero

Do you include Nero among the seven?

 

[endofdayz]

There happens to be a legend widely held during the early centuries that Nero would return to rule again.
The Legendary Return of Nero

Do you include Nero among the seven?

I didn't include Nero because John didn't include Nero in Revelation. He said one is(Domitian) and 5 have fallen. The first one of the 5 is Galba who ruled after Nero.

I think people get caught up on Nero because of his cruelty towards Christians but the final beast will go after the Jews and Israel. Nero was actually friendly towards the Jews on occassion.

Like his uncle Caligula, the emperor Nero has earned an unsavoury reputation in the annals of history, yet an interesting and overlooked aspect of his reign is the relationship between Nero and the Jews. Today’s post looks at this relationship in detail, considering where his favourable treatment of the Jews might have come from and mining our sources for deeper meaning.

Not only have we found archaeological evidence attesting to Poppaea’s popularity outside Rome, not least in references to her virtue and statues dedicated to her in Pompeii, but the Jewish author Josephus paints her in a conflictingly positive light.

According to Josephus, Poppaea Sabina was a “deeply religious woman” who intervened on behalf of the Jews on two separate occasions.

The deputation of twelve, including the High Priest and Temple treasurer could not have hoped the emperor would grant them their wish. After all, Nero’s uncle Caligula had refused turned Philo’s embassy away without so much as considering their case. Yet, to their great surprise, Nero ruled that they could keep their wall.

He did this – Josephus tells us – “as a favour to his wife who had pleaded on behalf of the Jews.”

https://www.romanjews.com/ancient-rome-and-judea-nero-and-the-jews/

The point is, I believe this final beast and the beast government system will have an end goal of controlling the Temple. The time of the Gentiles will be full and focus will be on the restoration of the Jews. The antichrist will go after Christians but his primary concern will be the Jews and the Temple.

If I had to pick one, it would be Titus. He wanted to capture the Temple in 70 A.D. to put Roman gods in the Temple but when he saw it on fire and it couldn't be saved, he wanted it utterly destroyed. It could be any 1 of the 7 that ascends from the bottomless pit.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hello

This tells us that this beast was alive, he's not alive now(at the time John wrote this) but he will live again most likely in the body of a present day leader.

You are making a major assumption here. Nothing is said about alive or dead. It says The beast once was and now is not. Since it is locked in a pit that has a great chain keeping it closed... Plus the fact it is The King of the pit... all this shows it is alive in the pit. It is far more likely to mean the Beast ...... once was free on the Earth .....and Now is Not .......and will ascend out of the pit.

 

[endofdayz]

Hello



You are making a major assumption here. Nothing is said about alive or dead. It says The beast once was and now is not. Since it is locked in a pit that has a great chain keeping it closed... Plus the fact it is The King of the pit... all this shows it is alive in the pit. It is far more likely to mean the Beast ...... once was free on the Earth .....and Now is Not .......and will ascend out of the pit.

I'm not making any assumptions.

It's clear what John is talking about. He's not talking about some gargoyle but a king that was and is not. When the Bible talks about beasts in this context, it's about kings and kingdoms not mythical creatures. A beast with 10 horns and 7 heads is a government not some mythical creature.

It says the 8th king not 8th animal will be the beast that was and is not and he's of the 7. Which 7? The 5 that are fallen, one is and one is yet to come. The 7 kings he just talked about. So, I don't have to assume anything, John spells it out.

 

[d taylor]

This from one of my go to teachers for Biblical learning Zane Hodges (June 15, 1932 – November 23, 2008)

Scans from his book The Power to make War
​

The King of The North becomes the beast from the sea after he is healed from his mortal wound Daniel 11:45, Revelation 13:3

And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.

​

 

[Douggg]

It says the 8th king not 8th animal will be the beast that was and is not and he's of the 7. Which 7? The 5 that are fallen, one is and one is yet to come. The 7 kings he just talked about. So, I don't have to assume anything, John spells it out.

The one king yet to come is king 7. When he comes he "must" continue a short space.

The short space is the 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

Backtracking in Revelation 13, one of the heads (one of the kings) will have been mortally wounded but healed. So that king has been killed and come back to life.

In Revelation 12, there are 7 heads but none of the mortally wounded or healed.

What it boils down to is king 7 is the king who will become the beast, king 8.
____________________________________________________________________

King 7 will be the little horn person in Daniel 7, 8. He will be killed and brought back to life.

 

[3 Resurrections]

EVERYBODY HERE is making the same mistake of presuming the Revelation 13 Beast from the Sea is the same as the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast in the Wilderness. They are different Beasts, with different biographies and characteristics, although they share some numerical similarities. In the following website link, I have listed the differences between all three different Beasts found in Revelation to show they are not the same:
The Sea Beast....The Land Beast....and The Scarlet Beast

That Scarlet Beast was decidedly JUDEAN in character. "That great city" riding on its back was OLD JERUSALEM, who sat on the 7 mountains round about Jerusalem. The wilderness setting was also typical for the Judean landscape - not Rome.

Another mistake is to presume that the "kings" found on that Scarlet Beast are emperors. They aren't. Those "kings of the earth" were HIGH PRIESTS. Didn't God tell Israel that He had made them a "kingdom of priests"? Israel's royalty was not in an enthroned monarch like all the other nations, but their "king" was the high priest. This is why God got so upset with Israel's demand for a regular king back in Samuel's days, since it amounted to a rejection of Himself and the high priesthood He had established to govern them by the Mosaic laws.

There were literally 8 high priests that came from the family of Annas, monopolizing that position for the greater part of the first-century years between AD 6 and AD 66. Five of those high priests from the family of Annas had died as of the time John was writing (Annas, Eleazar, Caiphas, Jonathan, and Matthias), and the 6th one was still alive (Theophilus, to whom Luke wrote the book of Luke and Acts as late as AD 65). One 7th high priest (Ananus ben Annas) had "not yet come" into office while John was writing, but when he did get appointed to the high priesthood in AD 63, he would only "continue a short space" in that high priest's role of a brief 3 months, and was then deposed for overstepping the bounds of his authority.

The 8th "king" / high priest was the grandson of Annas, named Mattathias ben Theophilus, who came into office in AD 65 for one year, and was the titular head of the independent nation of Israel when it re-emerged in AD 66 under the Zealot rebellion. That is how that 8th "king" could be "of the seven" (as a grandson of Annas), and could fulfill the double referent as being both the representation of the Scarlet Beast and one of the "horns" as well.

The Scarlet Beast was a kingdom, like all Daniel's Beasts, and it was the independent kingdom nation of Israel that had once come to existence under the Maccabean victories for about 80 years, and was then lost when Pompey put Israel under tribute to the Roman republic. The Zealot rebellion revived this independent kingdom of the nation of Israel in AD 66 when it cast off its Roman governance and started minting its own unique coinage as a sovereign nation. This pictured the "WAS", "IS NOT", and "IS ABOUT TO ARISE" biography for this Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast, which was about to come back into existence again in John's days, soon after he wrote Revelation in AD 59 / 60.

 

[Douggg]

EVERYBODY HERE is making the same mistake of presuming the Revelation 13 Beast from the Sea is the same as the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast in the Wilderness. They are different Beasts, with different biographies and characteristics, although they share some numerical similarities. In the following website link, I have listed the differences between all three different Beasts found in Revelation to show they are not the same:
The Sea Beast....The Land Beast....and The Scarlet Beast

That Scarlet Beast was decidedly JUDEAN in character. "That great city" riding on its back was OLD JERUSALEM, who sat on the 7 mountains round about Jerusalem. The wilderness setting was also typical for the Judean landscape - not Rome.

Another mistake is to presume that the "kings" found on that Scarlet Beast are emperors. They aren't. Those "kings of the earth" were HIGH PRIESTS. Didn't God tell Israel that He had made them a "kingdom of priests"? Israel's royalty was not in an enthroned monarch like all the other nations, but their "king" was the high priest. This is why God got so upset with Israel's demand for a regular king back in Samuel's days, since it amounted to a rejection of Himself and the high priesthood He had established to govern them by the Mosaic laws.

There were literally 8 high priests that came from the family of Annas, monopolizing that position for the greater part of the first-century years between AD 6 and AD 66. Five of those high priests from the family of Annas had died as of the time John was writing (Annas, Eleazar, Caiphas, Jonathan, and Matthias), and the 6th one was still alive (Theophilus, to whom Luke wrote the book of Luke and Acts as late as AD 65). One 7th high priest (Ananus ben Annas) had "not yet come" into office while John was writing, but when he did get appointed to the high priesthood in AD 63, he would only "continue a short space" in that high priest's role of a brief 3 months, and was then deposed for overstepping the bounds of his authority.

The 8th "king" / high priest was the grandson of Annas, named Mattathias ben Theophilus, who came into office in AD 65 for one year, and was the titular head of the independent nation of Israel when it re-emerged in AD 66 under the Zealot rebellion. That is how that 8th "king" could be "of the seven" (as a grandson of Annas), and could fulfill the double referent as being both the representation of the Scarlet Beast and one of the "horns" as well.

The Scarlet Beast was a kingdom, like all Daniel's Beasts, and it was the independent kingdom nation of Israel that had once come to existence under the Maccabean victories for about 80 years, and was then lost when Pompey put Israel under tribute to the Roman republic. The Zealot rebellion revived this independent kingdom of the nation of Israel in AD 66 when it cast off its Roman governance and started minting its own unique coinage as a sovereign nation. This pictured the "WAS", "IS NOT", and "IS ABOUT TO ARISE" biography for this Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast, which was about to come back into existence again in John's days, soon after he wrote Revelation in AD 59 / 60.

The mystery of the beast in Revelation 17. The scarlet beast is Satan. The mystery about him. In 17:8a he used the serpent in the garden of eden to get man to fall into sin. The serpent is the beast in the bottomless pit.

In 17:b Satan uses the end times king 7, who will be mortally wounded, but healed, to be worshiped. By Satan incarnating the statue image of the person.

King 7 will be killed and brought back to life, and the spirit of the serpent comes out of the bottomless pit to possess him.

________________________________________________________


Revelation 17 - the scarlet colored beast (1st century AD)
7 heads - no crowns. 5 fallen kings, 1 currently ruling, 1 yet to come ( king 7 when he comes must continue short space)
10 horns - no crowns. They get their crowns to rule with the end times king 8.

no mortally wounded head
the spirit of the serpent in the bottomless pit*

Revelation 12 - the red dragon (7 years in the body of Revelation 12)
7 heads - crowns. The 7 kings complete - king 7 in place
10 horns - no crowns. They get their crowns to rule with the end times king 8

no mortally wounded head
the spirit of the serpent still in the bottomless pit *


Revelation 13 - beast out the sea (42 months, the short space)
7 heads - no crowns. king 7 will have been killed. Ending the group of 7 kings.
10 horns - crowns. king 8 in power, they rule with him.

one head mortally wounded , but healed head. king 7 has been killed, but comes back to life as king 8, the beast.

the spirit of the serpent has come out of the bottomless pit. To possess the end times king 8.

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* The reason Satan is seen as the beast in Revelation 17 and Revelation 12 - is because the spirit of the serpent beast does not come out of the bottomless pit until there are 42 months left in the 7years. No-one can see into the bottomless pit - so Satan is seen by John in Revelation 17 (first century) and Revelation 12 (the seven years vs 6-17)

In Revelation 13, Satan is no longer seen as being the beast. The spirit of the serpent beast has come out the bottomless pit to possess king 8, the beast.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The mystery of the beast in Revelation 17. The scarlet beast is Satan.

That's not even possible for Satan to be the Scarlet Beast. Try looking at Revelation 16:13.
"And I saw thee unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. "

These are three separate entities listed here. Meaning the Dragon (which is Satan), cannot be either the Beast or the False Prophet.

Also, remember that the Devil was to be cast into the Lake of Fire where the Beast and the False Prophet already were (Rev. 20:10). Again, this indicates that Satan cannot be the same as these other two entities.

How could it be possible for the Scarlet Beast with its fluctuating pattern of existence and non-existence to be Satan? If that were the case, then John was writing at a time when Satan "IS NOT" in existence, according to Revelation 17:8. ('The beast that thou sawest was, and IS NOT..."). This would contradict John saying that Satan at that time had come down to the earth and the sea in great wrath, knowing he had but a short time left. (Revelation 12:12).

 

[Douggg]

That's not even possible for Satan to be the Scarlet Beast.

Satan is the scarlet beast in the vision as a stand in until (1) the beast (spirit of) ascends out of the bottomless pit and (2) until the end times person has become the beast.

When 99%, in my observation, of readers try to understand Revelation 17:8, they make a mistake by thinking the beast in that verse is one person. But it appears to be two persons - used by Satan - in that particular verse who are joined together. A spirit (of the serpent) to a man (the end times person).

"And I saw thee unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. "

These are three separate entities listed here. Meaning the Dragon (which is Satan), cannot be either the Beast or the False Prophet.

Yes, those are three separate entities.

Satan, who will be incarnating the statue image, that has life and speaks (by lying Satan miracle of him incarnating the image.

the Beast - the end times person used by Satan to become king 8. Possessed by the spirit of the beast (the serpent) currently in the bottomless pit.

the False prophet - self explanatory.

Also, remember that the Devil was to be cast into the Lake of Fire where the Beast and the False Prophet already were (Rev. 20:10). Again, this indicates that Satan cannot be the same as these other two entities.

I am having no disagreement with that at all.

What I am trying to show you is that the three visuals in Revelation 12, 13, 17 changes according to what point in time. And who is in power in each of the three visuals at what point in time (via the crowns, no crowns, one head wounded or not)

 

[3 Resurrections]

When 99% of readers try to understand Revelation 17:8, they make a mistake by thinking the beast in that verse is one person. But it is two persons - used by Satan - in that particular verse who are joined together. A spirit (of the serpent) to a man (the end times person).

Not really one or two persons either. Beasts always represent KINGDOMS or EMPIRES in Daniel and Revelation, which borrows extensively from Daniel. Now, within that kingdom, there are individual men presented, by the imagery of the different number of horns that each beast has.

And if we go by the original languages, not only was the the Scarlet Beast soon "ABOUT TO ARISE", it was also "ABOUT TO GO...INTO DESTRUCTION", in John's time. That Scarlet Beast is long gone.

 

[Douggg]

Beasts always represent KINGDOMS or EMPIRES in Daniel and Revelation, which borrows extensively from Daniel.

Beasts can represent kingdoms or empires. But it is not a hard fast rule that they must.

Now, within that kingdom, there are individual men presented, by the imagery of the different number of horns.

In Daniel 7, the ten horns are kings - and the little horn is also a king. The little horn person is the Revelation 17:10 king yet to come.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Beasts can represent kingdoms or empires. But it is not a hard fast rule that they must.

Where have you seen a symbolic beast in scripture said to represent anything else other than a kingdom or empire? If this is the only way that a symbolic beast is ever presented in prophecy, then why would you want to risk going off in the weeds by making a Beast represent something else such as a single person or even two persons? This will only twist the interpretation off in the wrong direction, even in something this "minor".

A very good friend of mine also interprets the Beast imagery as an individual "KING". That's not correct either, and also twists the interpretation off in the wrong direction. The Beast empires have individual kings as "horns" on them, but that doesn't mean the Beast and the horns are BOTH kings. I've been told there is a distinct difference in the Greek terms for "King" and "Kingdom". One is feminine gender, and the other masculine, so there is no way to confuse the two. So my good friend is clearly wrong. With Revelation, even the smallest incorrect detail can change the whole paradigm.

 

[Douggg]

Where have you seen a symbolic beast in scripture said to represent anything else other than a kingdom or empire?

Daniel 7:17

If this is the only way that a symbolic beast is ever presented in prophecy, then why would you want to risk going off in the weeds by making a Beast represent something else such as a single person or even two persons?

Count the number of the beast for it is the number of a man.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[Douggg]

A very good friend of mine also interprets the Beast imagery as an individual "KING". That's not correct either, and also twists the interpretation off in the wrong direction. The Beast empires have individual kings as "horns" on them, but that doesn't mean the Beast and the horns are BOTH kings. I've been told there is a distinct difference in the Greek terms for "King" and "Kingdom". One is feminine gender, and the other masculine, so there is no way to confuse the two. So my good friend is clearly wrong. With Revelation, even the smallest incorrect detail can change the whole paradigm.

Well, you friend is right...about the beast, who the number of his name is 666. The beast in that sense is a man.

And you are also right ... about....With Revelation, even the smallest incorrect detail can change the whole paradigm.

Let me see if can reconcile the two positions. In Revelation 13:1 the beast coming out of the sea is a kingdom. The ten horns, ten kings of that kingdom. The seven heads, seven heads of that kingdom.

One of the heads has been mortally wounded and healed. That head is the individual person, who has been tagged the beast for the last 42 months of the 7 years. His kingdom, featuring 10 kings that rule with him, is the EU, the end times Roman Empire.

The composite make up of the beast's kingdom in Revelation 13 is an indication that with 42 months left in the 7 years, the EU (the beast's kingdom, with likely allies of post rapture United States and Canada) will have gained control of the territories once held by the three historic kingdoms of Babylon, Medes-Persians, Greek.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Daniel 7:17


Count the number of the beast for it is the number of a man.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Many translations, including the LXX, have "Kingdoms" in Daniel 7:17 - not "Kings" for those four beasts.

As for counting the number of the Beast "for it is the number of a man", that is in reference to Daniel's STATUE OF A MAN. The Sea Beast in Revelation 13 had features of all of Daniel's former Beast kingdoms; lion, bear, and leopard, standing for the Chaldean, Medo-Persian, and Greek kingdoms respectively that were all subsumed into that Sea Beast entity. Daniel's statue of a man with all those collective empires had lasted for 666 years into John's days of writing Revelation, ever since Nebuchadnezzar had deported the first Jews from Jerusalem to Babylon in 607 BC.