The BASICS of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism

[Danoh]

No, that is not The Mystery. Isaiah is chockful of PROPHESIED Gentile Grace, for example. And that through ISRAEL'S PROPHSIED RISE. There this PROPHESIED Grace is, in Romans 15:8-12's "Praise ye GENTILES WITH His People.

That is on hold, per Romans 11.

While, Romans 15:13 forward is an UNPROPHESIED GENTILE Grace.

But WHAT this Gentile Grace is, is The Mystery, the subject of which is Ephesians 3 and Colossians 1 greatly touches on - it was "hid in God... from ages and generations" til Paul, and concerns an assembly Paul was called unto.

Now, watch you gainsay all that, just because it does not match your understanding - do you see why there is perhaps no point in this with you - it does not appear you study any of it out.

This is why I am still holding back on just what this Grace of The Mystery is. You need to put in some time to studying these things out, not gainsay them outright...

And no, I have never had an issue with you, just your reading into things, but, go ahead anyway - you will -)

 

[7xlightray]

I thought this is what we were talking about, going from what you posted, and your link of The Basics of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. And I have shown that this is in the O.T.
That was my disagreement, with what the article stated and what you stated below. So, I am asking where in scripture, do you say, that this was given only to Paul and is not in the O.T.?

Danoh: "The Mid-Acts Perspective distinguishes between those Gentiles PROPHESIED to come to salvation in the Lord through Israel's rise to its glory FIRST - it is this salvation that is on hold until AFTER the fulness of the PRESENT salvation of the Gentiles, not through Israel's rise "but rather, through their FALL."
This present salvation was NOT foretold, it was "a Mystery.""

...and this from The Basics of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism...

"For example, the Lord had previously told His apostles that it was given to them to know "the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.13:11), and to know "the mystery of the kingdom of God" (Mk.4:11). Yet the apostles, for all their given knowledge, still failed to realize that Uncircumcised Gentiles could ever be saved. As a result, the "mystery" which was later revealed to Paul (which Peter, James, and John did not know) cannot be among the "the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven", which they did know.
Instead, the mystery that was revealed to Paul concerned the fact that Uncircumcised Gentiles are now saved through the "fall" of Israel (again, see Ro.11:11), rather than through Israel's prophesied exaltation. Since the salvation of Uncircumcised Gentiles was never prophesied (see section 6 of this study), this salvation was indeed a mystery that was kept hidden "in God" (Eph.3:9) until it was revealed to the apostle Paul."

 

[Danoh]

I don't understand your question - what is it that you are saying was prophesied? You appear to be confusing prophesied Gentile salvation with unprophesied Gentile salvation.

 

[7xlightray]

I am only answering to what both of you said, I'm not confusing them.

Both the article and you said the mystery that is not in the O.T, that was not prophesied about, was that salvation of the Gentiles would come through the "Fall" of Israel. This both of you said was not foretold, not prophesied about, not in the O.T. I will agree it was not known, but it was there.

What you are saying was prophesied about, is that salvation would come to the Gentiles through the "Rise" of Israel.

So, I showed from the O.T. it was prophesied that salvation would come to the Gentiles through the "Fall" of Israel. In three different passages in the O.T.

 

[Danoh]

Then a stalemate as you have only shown what you have read into those passages. You completely rip Moses out of his context, if you even know what that context is. Add to this the countless distinctions between prophesied and unprophesied Gentile grace. The following is many of those distinctions, as I see no point in redoing them, as your way of what you conclude is a refuting of our perspective is as old as Acts 15...

http://www.christianforums.com/t2385749/
Read through some of that; you're not alone in your way of reasoning, regretably...

 

[Danoh]

Dispy, that link I posted just above this post here - your reasoning was flawless throughout, almost matched your patience with that gainsayer. That was what, some fourteen years ago? Sometimes, I wonder why we bother with some, as, tomorrow, another one will pop up to prove Paul's "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" Rom. 14.

It is a fact that to seek a thing not by faith in what the passages say "as written" is to harden one's heart to their truth by the external work of one's own reasoning. Again, Dispy, great defense!

 

[7xlightray]

The Pharisees could not understand Christ either, they took him literally, and did not understand that he spoke of his body. The N.T. tells us that in the O.T. are types and shadows, figures, parables, allegories and we have to be careful taking them literally, or only literally. You can not just make up your own interpretation, there has to be witnesses, and has to fit in with the whole word of God.

Did Paul ripe Genesis 2:24 out of context, is it only what he read into it, is it only literal meaning?
""For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.".
If you had heard this from me and not from Paul, I wonder if you would have rejected it? Or, if Paul did not tell you how to understand Gen 2:24, would you have seen it, important question to ask oneself. I showed you from Moses, Joseph, and Moses and Joshua, and these are far more clear then Genesis 2:24, and you don't see. The N.T. shows you how to understand the O.T, but do you only look for literal?

Hear are some more...

Hebrews 11:19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

How about this one...

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Do you see in the O.T. scriptures, or you only see because they have been explained to you in the N.T.?

Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. How could they check if what Paul was saying about the mystery was true, if it was not in the O.T. scriptures?

Here is a true statement, believing in one God will not save you, but believing in more then one God will devour you.

 

[7xlightray]

Hear they will be made jealous, the kingdom will be taken from them "Fall" and give to who? Notice that word "nation" in verse 43, that is the word used for Gentile. What was the last straw? Killing His Son. Where they destroy? Yes! Was it given to someone else? Yes!

Matthew 21:33 "Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"
41 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons."
42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

 

[Danoh]

For the fun of it at this point, 7xlightray, as you will continue to see as you will. That other nation is Luke 12:32. As for Acts 17's "searched the Scriptures" again you read out of context. Look at verse two, or thereabouts as to what it was they were searching out - "that Jesus was very Christ." THAT is NOT the Mystery!!!

You sure are intent on your way, I'll give ya that much -

 

[Danoh]

By the way, not that context matters to you, but He was addressing Israel's ruling class. Take a look at who that nation is that will end up with that rule, in Matthew 19:28, a sister passage to Luke 12:32.

 

[7xlightray]

Acts 17's "searched the Scriptures" again you read out of context. Look at verse two, or thereabouts as to what it was they were searching out - "that Jesus was very Christ." THAT is NOT the Mystery!!!

I was not trying to say what Paul was talking about, whether he was talking about this, or that. But, I can see how that may not have been clear. My point was that we need to look in the scriptures to see if what Paul says is true. We can't take mans word, we have to search the scriptures, and the scriptures they would be checking would have been the O.T. to see if what Paul said was true, whatever he taught them, or would teach them.

I don't see how Matthew 19:28, or Luke 12:32 change anything. It includes his disciples. Abraham's, disciple's and Our kingdom is the heavenly Jerusalem, only we have not gotten there yet. In somewhat of a similar way as salvation, we believe we are saved now, only it is still yet to come.

 

[7xlightray]

The kingdom had to be at some time during Peter's life, or what would be the point of Jesus giving Peter the keys to basically nothing. Yet, Peter was not one of the ones that seen Jesus come in his kingdom.
Here again, Peter the foundation of the church, the church foundation of Jew and Gentile.

Matthew 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
　

Now see what Jesus say's in Matt 16 and John 21. He said some will not die till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom. Jesus did not say they would not die. The kingdom must have already started in heaven, if Jesus is coming in it.

Matt 16:28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

John 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?"

Jesus made a clear statement, that some that were standing there with him would remain alive until he came in his kingdom, then they would die. If you have an understanding it must line up with this.

 

[Danoh]

Lol, how you wax worse and worse.... You are obviously well read in that which is MIS-WRITTEN in the traditions of men.

That passage's point is two-fold. One is its 2 Peter 1:16 - 18 aspect. The other, is its Matthew 24 aspect,on hold per 2 Peter 3 in light of Romans 9-11's "mystery."

Yours is a view alright. At points an aspect of one confusion out there, at other points, of one of the other confusions out there.

Put those commentaries away. Also, your own reading into where those commentaries, given their error to begin with, leave you so short that you then attempt to both hold to their errors as you, at the same time, attempt to sort out their resulting gaps with your own erroneous study habits.

Drop all that - your answer is in "the preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO the revelation of THE MYSTERY - Note - which was kept SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN, BUT NOW is made manifest" Rom. 16:25

 

[7xlightray]

"Lol, how you wax worse and worse.... You are obviously well read in that which is MIS-WRITTEN in the traditions of men.
That passage's point is two-fold. One is its 2 Peter 1:16 - 18 aspect. The other, is its Matthew 24 aspect,on hold per 2 Peter 3 in light of Romans 9-11's "mystery."
Yours is a view alright. At points an aspect of one confusion out there, at other points, of one of the other confusions out there.
Put those commentaries away. Also, your own reading into where those commentaries, given their error to begin with, leave you so short that you then attempt to both hold to their errors as you, at the same time, attempt to sort out their resulting gaps with your own erroneous study habits."

There must be a new definition of "prove someone wrong".
　
　


"Drop all that - your answer is in "the preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO the revelation of THE MYSTERY - Note - which was kept SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN, BUT NOW is made manifest" Rom. 16:25"

Which is clearly taught in the O.T, but for whatever reason you do not see.

Hebrews 3:16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Joshua 5:2 At that time the Lord said to Joshua, "Make flint knives for yourself, and circumcise the sons of Israel again the second time." 3 So Joshua made flint knives for himself, and circumcised the sons of Israel at the hill of the foreskins. 4 And this is the reason why Joshua circumcised them: All the people who came out of Egypt who were males, all the men of war, had died in the wilderness on the way, after they had come out of Egypt. 5 For all the people who came out had been circumcised, but all the people born in the wilderness, on the way as they came out of Egypt, had not been circumcised. 6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people who were men of war, who came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they did not obey the voice of the Lord—to whom the Lord swore that He would not show them the land which the Lord had sworn to their fathers that He would give us, "a land flowing with milk and honey." 7 Then Joshua circumcised their sons whom He raised up in their place; for they were uncircumcised, because they had not been circumcised on the way.
8 So it was, when they had finished circumcising all the people, that they stayed in their places in the camp till they were healed. 9 Then the Lord said to Joshua, "This day I have rolled away the reproach of Egypt from you."

How many will it take? Why do you not see? Why, because it is not there? No, It is there as plain as day. Joshua is a type of Christ. Does rolled away sound familiar?
　
Who is this talking about in Hosea 11? Israel?

Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.

Matthew 2:15
and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."

It is actually talking about Christ. Do you see that? Is Matthew taking it out of context, is that his own reading? These are some of the commentaries that I read, should I put them away? Buy you prefer that I listen to your commentaries that you read. I will hear the commentaries of men, but I will follow the example of the scriptures.

 

[Danoh]

Brother, you're the one unable to see.

That last post of your; I have no issue with the types you presented - other than that they are Israel's types - Jesus Christ as Israel's Messiah, or, as PROPHESIED, John 1, Luke 24, and Romans 15:8-12. But that is Christ in His PROPHESIED role as Israel's Messiah. That is that Messianic Church He will build on said confesion of - Israel's PROMISED/PROPHESIED Christ, the Son of God, the King of Israel.

That is not "the preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO the revelation of the Mystery - Note - Which-WAS-Kept-SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN - Note - BUT NOW - is made manifest."

Where was it - "hid IN God" Eph. 3.

You are confusing "the mysteries" (plural) of Israel's PROPHESIED Grace, John 1, 1 Peter 1, with "the Mystery of Christ committed unto" Paul, not for His earthly people, Israel, but concerning the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY."

Believe me, Mid-Acts is VERY familar with Israel's types and shadows of ISRAEL'S things to come, the substance of which is Christ in His PROPHESIED role.

What you are doing is judging in respect of meat, etc., though Paul clearly declares that is ISRAEL'S TO COME.

You did likewise as to Paul's use of metaphor in Ephesians 6. You completely disregarded his frequent use of that as his means of putting flesh and bones on those spiritual truths he is communicating that the eyes of our standing "get the picture" he is attempting to paint via metaphor, you completely ignored that that your "see, the mystery was prophesied" delusion be allowed its continued waxing worse and worse.

Sorry, brother, no cigar. You'll have to try much harder if you're to punch holes in this Mystery Paradigm. You'll have to, first plug up the countless holes your assertions conttinue to drill even more of. In this, I' be better off having the Three Stooges attempt to plug up such holes. At least they, in the end always find their way back to a sounder path, nyuck, nyuck, nycuk

 

[7xlightray]

So, then you must see the Fall of Israel (the first generation that was circumcised, that did not get to enter), no?

 

[Danoh]

Israel has had many falls throughout its long, disobeying history. Each time, God temporarily sets aside His plans for that nation, and the world is left, more or less, without much of a witness of God, during each of those times.

NEVER during ant of those do we find a situation like that of Paul's day, where, not only does God once more temporarily set Israel aside, but visits the Gentiles during said temporary setting aside of Israel. Though Israel is prophesied to fall, though God's temporary turning from them is also prophesied, His turning to the Gentiles during one of those falls and consequent setting asides was not prophesied. You have got to be as willfully blind as God had had to conclude Israel once more in Acts, not to see this distinction, for their it is in Acts and Romans. This turning to the Gentiles is Romans 11's "this mystery."

While what He is doing among the Gentiles is THE Mystery. It concerns a New Man IN the Second Adam, one that is NOT of the Earth - Earthy - as His plan for Israel is (of the Earth - Earthy).

Face it, you are willfully blind to this truth, yours is "another gospel, which is not another" of the same kind preached by Paul, thus, not another at all. Yours is a mix of "the gospel of the circumcision" and "the gospel of the uncircumcision."

But, build all you will "Christ shall profit you nothing... you are fallen from the gospel of the grace of God" into your own.

I am through with you. There simply is no point in continuing to attempt to point out the obvious. I've watered. Perhaps down the road some you will realize your error. I leave you as I found you, one more gainsayer against the Mystery of Christ. May you find your way home soon...

 

[7xlightray]

Let me address this first...

"His turning to the Gentiles during one of those falls and consequent setting asides was not prophesied." ...and... "While what He is doing among the Gentiles is THE Mystery. It concerns a New Man IN the Second Adam". In fact it is also called a new creation. ...and this... "Mystery - Note - Which-WAS-Kept-SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN - Note - BUT NOW - is made manifest. " ...and this... "Drop all that - your answer is in "the preaching of Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO the revelation of THE MYSTERY - Note - which was kept SECRET SINCE THE WORLD BEGAN, BUT NOW is made manifest" Rom. 16:25 "

Lets continue to verse 26 of Rom. 16,
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations.

Look up the word "and" which is te G5037 in the Greek, meaning "not only ... but also", "both ... and", "as ... so". It can't mean never written before only revealed to Paul.

"hid IN God"
Daniel - God told him it was not revealed to him, it would not be understood until the time of God's choosing, but God had him write it. Yet, it was hid in God until that time.

 

[7xlightray]

But this is not just any Fall, this is painting a picture, of the generation that received the Law, that were known as God's people, but yet rejected by God, wondering in the dessert, did not get to enter. The Israel of the Law that rejected their God, were cut off, but the next generation the Israel that Joshua circumcised did go in. The next generation represents the beginning of the new man, the new creation. Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. I will get to more of Israel in a bit, in next post.

What happens next in the N.T? The Gentiles are add to this group.

What happens next in the O.T? Joshua 6.

1 Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in. (salvation had not yet come to the Gentile, slowly the Jew's began to understand, Peter shown the sheet with the four corners bound, then Paul) 20...the wall fell down flat. (of separation) 22...But Joshua had said to the two men who had spied out the country, "Go into the harlot’s house, and from there bring out the woman and all that she has, as you swore to her." And the young men who had been spies went in and brought out Rahab, her father, her mother, her brothers, and all that she had. So they brought out all her relatives and left them outside the camp of Israel. (Gentiles brought near to Israel) 24 But they burned the city and all that was in it with fire... 25 And Joshua spared Rahab the harlot, her father’s household, and all that she had. So she dwells in Israel to this day,

Is this not what happened in Paul's day?