The babel tower

[yeshuasavedme]

Jasher is not scripture and, as far as I am aware, all of the books out there that are supposedly the "Jasher" referenced in the Bible are frauds.

The Book of the Upright or Upright Record is history, and true -link below:
Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com

 

[SaintN8]

The Book of the Upright or Upright Record is history, and true

Yes, I've seen that before, and it contridicts the Bible - many times, actually. Therefore, because the Bible is true, this supposed book of Jasher is not.

 

[Calminian]

Yes, I've seen that before, and it contridicts the Bible - many times, actually. Therefore, because the Bible is true, this supposed book of Jasher is not.

She's definitely been told this before. She believes it is on par with many books of the Bible. Somehow she finds a way to bring Jaser into every thread.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Yes, I've seen that before, and it contridicts the Bible - many times, actually. Therefore, because the Bible is true, this supposed book of Jasher is not.

The Book of Jasher does not contradict the Bible in any place. But start a thread on it if you want to discuss it from your own research and proofs.

Like the Bereans, I have proved it, and am willing to discuss it with you, but not on this thread. Start another and I will. I also will not refute tomes of copied and pasted so called refutations which are filled with contradictions of the making of the non-researchers, themselves.
Make it your own research, and we can have an honest discussion. Otherwise, to just make claims based on no foundation whatsoever but your own opinions is worthless, and a time-waster, which comes under the "not entering into discussions with those who contradict themselves -and what is written, by foolishness".
And yes, I accept and have proven it to be reliable history, on a par with the other histories which are included in the Tenach and NT, like Joshua, Judges, the Samuels, Kings, Chronicles, Esther, Nehemiah, Ezra -and the Ezra's of the Deotero-canon; the Maccabees, Acts, and Paul's letters, just to name a few.

 

[SaintN8]

The Book of Jasher does not contradict the Bible in any place. But start a thread on it if you want to discuss it from your own research and proofs.

Like the Bereans, I have proved it, and am willing to discuss it with you, but not on this thread. Start another and I will. I also will not refute tomes of copied and pasted so called refutations which are filled with contradictions of the making of the non-researchers, themselves.
Make it your own research, and we can have an honest discussion. Otherwise, to just make claims based on no foundation whatsoever but your own opinions is worthless, and a time-waster, which comes under the "not entering into discussions with those who contradict themselves -and what is written, by foolishness".
And yes, I accept and have proven it to be reliable history, on a par with the other histories which are included in the Tenach and NT, like Joshua, Judges, the Samuels, Kings, Chronicles, Esther, Nehemiah, Ezra -and the Ezra's of the Deotero-canon; the Maccabees, Acts, and Paul's letters, just to name a few.

It doesn't take "research" when a plain reading of the text directly conflicts with what we have in Genesis and Exodus. If you want to start a thread on it, I'm ready to point out the many cases where this so-called "Jasher" fails on even a rudimentary level to find harmony with the scriptures.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

It doesn't take "research" when a plain reading of the text directly conflicts with what we have in Genesis and Exodus. If you want to start a thread on it, I'm ready to point out the many cases where this so-called "Jasher" fails on even a rudimentary level to find harmony with the scriptures.

Go right ahead and enter into the many threads on it that exist, if you are not willing to start your own.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7532226/#post56660835

 

[mark kennedy]

the atmospheric layer is hight up to about 100km and it is known that breathing is impossible out of that layer;

Now, the Bible tells us in Genesis 11:4-7

"4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
"
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Here, humans decided to build a tower whose top reaches heaven; my questions are:
-could that building have reached at least 100km height?

No

-we know that after 100km breathing becomes difficult, could those men have reached their goal of reaching heaven?

No

-we also know about the universe and others planets made by God, this make us believe that heaven is far above 100km as must planets are separated by thousands or millions km....how could have these men reached heaven with brick building? can brick walls stand above 100km?

I don't remember reading in Genesis that they sought to reach '100 km' and I have no idea what the distance between planets has to do with it. That said, I think they intended to observe the heavens, the tower like other ziggurat would seem to be that they were observatories. They were so big that they could even be considered cites.

Beyond that, no, brick walls are not going to stand above 100 km. I don't think that's what they were trying to do.

-why did the Lord react that way? He who knows everything?

Because they were supposed to be spreading out across the face of the earth, not erecting towers that enslaved the builders.

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

You are quite the flamer....you got a problem with the Scriptures, not me....
​

Calminian:>>And there she goes again claiming anyone denying her silly theories is denying scripture. Sounds like a cultist to me.

Dear Calminian, Sounds like a Bible believer to me. Do you find it hard to find agreement with people who actually agree with God's Holy Word?

In Love,
Aman

 

[motherprayer]

Mod Hat On!

This thread has undergone a cleanup. Please remember to address the post and not the poster.

From the Rules:

Flaming and Harassment
​

● Do not insult, belittle, mock, goad, personally attack, threaten, harass, or use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members or groups of members. Address the context of the post, not the poster.
● If you are flamed, do not respond in-kind. Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button. Do not report another member out of spite.
● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.
​

Mod Hat Off

​

 

[Aman777]

Purity:>>Here, humans decided to build a tower whose top reaches heaven; my questions are:
-could that building have reached at least 100km height?
-we know that after 100km breathing becomes difficult, could those men have reached their goal of reaching heaven?

Dear Purity, It depends on which heaven these people were trying to reach. Remember that the first heaven, the world of Adam, was much smaller than our Cosmos. Since these people were just off the Ark, they could have failed to recognize that they were on another world. A tower to reach the boundary of the first heaven is easily understood, if they remembered what their fathers told them about the first world.

Purity:>>-we also know about the universe and others planets made by God, this make us believe that heaven is far above 100km as must planets are separated by thousands or millions km....how could have these men reached heaven with brick building? can brick walls stand above 100km?
-why did the Lord react that way? He who knows everything?

The LORD knew that together, nothing was impossible for these humans, but that's not why He put them here. He put them here to spread the human intelligence of Adam to a Planet of Natural man, prehistoric man. He didn't want them wasting their time trying to climb up to the 3rd heaven physically.

In Love,
Aman

 

[purity2holiness]

Purity:>>Here, humans decided to build a tower whose top reaches heaven; my questions are:
-could that building have reached at least 100km height?
-we know that after 100km breathing becomes difficult, could those men have reached their goal of reaching heaven?

Dear Purity, It depends on which heaven these people were trying to reach. Remember that the first heaven, the world of Adam, was much smaller than our Cosmos. Since these people were just off the Ark, they could have failed to recognize that they were on another world. A tower to reach the boundary of the first heaven is easily understood, if they remembered what their fathers told them about the first world.

Purity:>>-we also know about the universe and others planets made by God, this make us believe that heaven is far above 100km as must planets are separated by thousands or millions km....how could have these men reached heaven with brick building? can brick walls stand above 100km?
-why did the Lord react that way? He who knows everything?

The LORD knew that together, nothing was impossible for these humans, but that's not why He put them here. He put them here to spread the human intelligence of Adam to a Planet of Natural man, prehistoric man. He didn't want them wasting their time trying to climb up to the 3rd heaven physically.

In Love,
Aman

Thanks for the reply but I still find God's reaction very strange; it reminds me of the garden of eden where He said "let's create man in our likeness and ressemblance...." after creating man, man ate of the forbidden fruit and became like God by the knowledge of good and evil(the purpose was to make a man who would be like God, yes the serpent's way wasn't God's will but at the end that man became like him); God got angry and cursed man and woman in such a way that we today we are paying for what we don't know of, women are giving birth in labour and some even die when giving birth because of the pain while the issu could have been solved in the garden there and today people would not have to pay so dearly;
The same, at that babel tower, the tongue was confused and even today we still have communication problems because of the different tongues .... I am not judging God(who am I to do so and what do I know about his plans?) it is just that I think that He gets angry easily and many innocent people pay and suffer dearly; yes these people didn't want to spread and they wanted to make a name for themselves, at least they had the idea of making a way to heaven which Jesus came to do later so ....in my case for exemple, because of that I am very limited in communicating and I am not good at learning other languages, and when I think that it is because that babel tower issu, I really don't know what to think ....there are nice videos and documentaries out there that I can't understand.... it is so unfair!!

 

[SkyWriting]

God got angry and cursed man and woman in such a way that we today we are paying for what we don't know of, women are giving birth in ...

The idea that God gets "angry" is incorrect. But the Bible is written from
a human point of view so "anger" conveys a point.

If a child slams their fingers in a car door, the parent will get "angry".
They get angry with tears in their eyes about the events that have
unfolded. Not mad at the child. But it may seem so to the child.

 

[Derek Cunningham]

The Tower reference was to an ancient custom where stars were linked to places on Earth.

The texts in the Genesis 11 also refers to "One Speech" and "One Language". This is a reference to One spoken "speech" and one written language.

The Babel written Language is now partially deciphered, and its based on mathematics and astronomy.

You can find examples of this Stone Age text in China, Australia, Europe, Asia, Africa, and yes, even in the Americas.

 

[coffee4u]

the atmospheric layer is hight up to about 100km and it is known that breathing is impossible out of that layer;

Now, the Bible tells us in Genesis 11:4-7

"4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
"
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Here, humans decided to build a tower whose top reaches heaven; my questions are:
-could that building have reached at least 100km height?
-we know that after 100km breathing becomes difficult, could those men have reached their goal of reaching heaven?
-we also know about the universe and others planets made by God, this make us believe that heaven is far above 100km as must planets are separated by thousands or millions km....how could have these men reached heaven with brick building? can brick walls stand above 100km?
-why did the Lord react that way? He who knows everything?

I highly doubt that. My guess is this building wasn't even as tall as the Eiffel tower. They didn't have cranes or the know-how.

As for why did God stop them, they weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing and confusing the language was not only a good way of stopping them, it showed them that God is in control.

 

[MrsFoundit]

As for why did God stop them, they weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing and confusing the language was not only a good way of stopping them, it showed them that God is in control.

Yes.

Genesis 9:1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons and told them, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth."

Genesis 11:4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

 

[LoG]

Genesis 11:4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

Think a lot of the language mixing had to do with the pride being displayed and the wish for self sufficiency. It runs counter to a dependence on God which is the first and foremost command we have from Him.

 

[Derek Cunningham]

You can see the first examples of the original written language at this website...

https://popular-archaeology.com/art...umental-complex-exhibits-astronomical-values/

Since then the work has developed, and the first phonetics have now been extracted.

 

[fwGod]

the atmospheric layer is hight up to about 100km and it is known that breathing is impossible out of that layer;

Now, the Bible tells us in Genesis 11:4-7

"4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth."

I seriously doubt that they were aware that they existed on an earth. The more accurate translation of the Hebrew word "eretz" would be "land".. at least as far as they could see.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

Here, humans decided to build a tower whose top reaches heaven; my questions are:
-could that building have reached at least 100km height?

All that it need do is reach the height of any mountain. The highest of any level of land pushed up by the strength of the waters and landscape that had been changed during the flood.

The tops of mountains are known to look as though they scrape against the clouds or have clouds play in their heights.

The phrase 'The heights of the gods" came from that ancient mythology.

In the time of Moses it's told that God came down to dwell on the nearest mountain.

-we know that after 100km breathing becomes difficult, could those men have reached their goal of reaching heaven?

No, God stopped them before they could finish.

-we also know about the universe and others planets made by God, this make us believe that heaven is far above 100km as must planets are separated by thousands or millions km....how could have these men reached heaven with brick building? can brick walls stand above 100km?

Their ideas of heaven is different than science has informed us of concerning the cosmic heavens filled with planets, solar systems, stars and galaxies.

-why did the Lord react that way? He who knows everything?

They had deliberately rebelled God in not scattering to populate the extent of the earth. They stayed in one place all together.
They sought to have a place of safety against God causing another flood. They didn't trust His promise that he never would allow another flood.
They sought to achieve things on their own without God.
They were led by Nimrod who captured their thinking and join with him against God.

God confused their languages making many different dialects out of one. They couldn't understand each other so they scattered in all directions. It wasn't out of obedience to God.. But it was God's will none the less.

Nimrod had no one to rule over any more. The unfinished tower, pyramid, ziggarat was a lasting monument to his monumental failure to have all on the planet do his bidding.

But other empires arose through the years, decades, centuries, having a central leader who sought to rule over all in that empire as he saw fit. So what Nimrod started hasn't changed very much.

 

[Paul James]

I dont' think God actually cared about them making the tower that could reach the lower heavens where the birds fly. If you look at the passage carefully, you'll see what the real motive of the builders was, and why this was a concern to God.

Gen. 11:3 Then they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”​

Papais, I think you've completely misunderstood this entire passage. The men at that time were attempting to rebel against God and stay centralized on the earth and not spread out and fill the entire land. The great city and tower were a way attract them to stay near and thus disobey God.

Then look at God's response.

Gen. 11:5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the LORD said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.​

God says nothing about Him being afraid they might invade His home. The notion doesn't fit with the narrative at all. Very plainly He explains that this city would be the first step in them realizing all their evil desires, and repeating the folly of the last culture that God destroyed in the flood. Thus he created the languages, forcing them to break up and scatter all over the earth. And that was exactly the result.

But I just found it a bit ironic how this passage refutes the notion that these ancients believed heaven to be a solid dome and not an open expanse. For clearly these builders understood that the sky was very high and no tower could possibly reach a height to reach to sun and stars. For even a tower going up as high as the clouds would have been impossible, let alone a theoretical dome far far above the clouds. This would have been an obvious visual inference.

But when you allow scripture to define its own terms, and not try to force fit it with other ancient beliefs, you'll see the heavens (biblically) were really an expanse which encompassed the clouds and even bird flying heights, everything makes perfect sense. Building a tower just a couple hundred feet high was well within their reach, thus proving what concept of heaven they really had.

This is yet another passage in scripture that doesn't fit with the ancient cosmologies some of these 'scholars' are trying force them into. If these ancient really believed in a solid dome way up there beyond the clouds they would have never purposed to build a tower to it. Clearly this scriptural account preceded solid dome cosmologies. My thinking is, they likely developed much later after Babel.

This is the first sensible, reasonable and Biblical oriented posts in this whole thread! And I totally agree with it. One must read the Bible exactly as it is written, and although the extra-Biblical stuff in the other posts looks interesting, it is imaginary and not consistent with what God wants us to know about the event. There is no "spiritual" subtext. It is a straight history of the event, and shows us the reason for the different language and cultural groups spread around the world through migration from that central location.

 

[Paul James]

You are not correct. The Scripture in no place teaches a flat earth nor hard "dome" view. You believe it without Scripture support.
Genesis 1: the heavens are stretched out between the waters of creation which are cut in halves, on day 2.

The stretched out expanse -firmament- is called "heavens", on day two.
The sun and moon are made and set in the firmament on day four, to govern/rule the light brought into being on day 1, and by day and night.
The stars are also made to rule the seasons [climate controllers of winds, rains, seasons, hail, snow, rains], as Genesis states.
In the face of the heavens, creatures fly -day 5.

And man can go to the stars -the planets, that is, and make their "nests" there, says God. Planet means "wanderer", and the planets that are not "lights" wander, and they also are part of the control of earth's climate in the seasons, as God ordained. ****

Man will apparently "make their "nests" on the stars" from where God will bring them down, in the near future -wanna sign up for a one way trip to Mars, anyone, and dwell in a "domed" "nest/cell" there?

Oba 1:4 Though thou exalt [thyself] as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.

Think God doesn't mean it? -look again:


Amo 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they עלהascend/ `alah to heaven/shamayim, thence will I bring them down:

**** Applications open for one-way trip to Mars: Mission calls for couple willing to be cooped up together on 501 day trip | Mail Online

The sheer distances from our solar system to the nearest stars would make any migration to the stars impossible. It has also been observed that the intense radiation in deep space would kill anyone who remained out there for any real length of time.