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The babel tower

Discussion in 'Creationism' started by purity2holiness, Apr 16, 2013.

  1. purity2holiness

    purity2holiness Newbie

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    the atmospheric layer is hight up to about 100km and it is known that breathing is impossible out of that layer;

    Now, the Bible tells us in Genesis 11:4-7

    "4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
    "
    5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
    6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

    Here, humans decided to build a tower whose top reaches heaven; my questions are:
    -could that building have reached at least 100km height?
    -we know that after 100km breathing becomes difficult, could those men have reached their goal of reaching heaven?
    -we also know about the universe and others planets made by God, this make us believe that heaven is far above 100km as must planets are separated by thousands or millions km....how could have these men reached heaven with brick building? can brick walls stand above 100km?
    -why did the Lord react that way? He who knows everything?
     
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  2. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    They were building a tower whose top reached the heaven where Eden is, which is where Adam was placed in the Garden/Paradise, of, after his creation.
    That "heaven" is stretched out from the earth on day 2 of creation week, between the divided waters of the creation.
    They were building it for forty years , and it took a whole year for what began to be taken up to the top for building with, reached the top, by the time of the fall of it.

    That realm is still there, but since Bab-El [Gate of God] the Mountain of Eden where Paradise is, and the Tree of Life in its midst is not seen by our veiled eyes, unless God opens them for a vision -but its there.
    PAul went up there, and he called it the "third heaven/Paradise". Jesus said he that overcomes He will give to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the Paradise/Garden of God.

    Jesus warned about trying to climb up another way, for He alone is the Way -but Nimrod & Co tried to get up there by another way, and so, to live forever.

    Read the Book of Jasher for the rest of the story, chapter 9: Book of Jasher Bible - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com
     
  3. freezerman2000

    freezerman2000 Living and dying in 3/4 time

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    You're talking about a building over 60 miles tall...I don't think so..
    How Tall Can Skyscrapers Be? (with picture)
     
  4. ChetSinger

    ChetSinger Well-Known Member

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    Hello.

    100km is too high for breathing. Even the empire state building is only about 1/2 km high.

    As literal as I am, I think their desire may have been expressed poetically. Or maybe they didn't know how atmospheric pressure decreases with altitude. At any rate, God confounded them before they finished it.

    Josephus wrote about the tower. If you google "Josephus tower babel" I'm sure you'll be able to read what he wrote.

    Another candidate for the tower of is the Etemenanki, a tower of unknown origin which fell into disrepair, was rebuilt by Nebuchadnezzar, fell into disrepair again, and was eventually leveled by Alexander the Great. Here's what Nebuchadnezzar wrote about it:

    It's been noticed that it has some parallels to the tower of Babel: it's origin was from a remote time, the people who built were unknown, and the top was unfinished.
     
  5. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    Sorta reminds you of this

    Gen 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

    Luke 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

    Luke 20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

    Given it was a parable

    Psalm 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

    And also a parable pertaining to that which was written of old

    What would brick signify in contrast to stone?

    Brick is manmade, unless speaking od manmade dcotrines, or that by which they go about to make a name for themselves.
     
  6. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    All great comments but I think the real question here was...

    "why did the Lord react that way? He who knows everything?"

    The reason why has a few reasons to it...number one is the Lord commanded man to spread out and populate the earth...along comes Nimrod and gathers everyone together...and next, why do they build this tower (speculation aside) to "make a name for ourselves".

    Then in response God says (paraphrasing) if we let them get away with this what next? What will be the limit if any of what they will do (rebelliously)...

    He intervenes I think to quell the insolent rebellion and attempt at self glorification (the ol' I wanna be a god unto myself fruit of the Tree in Genesis 3:5)...

    Any thoughts?

    Paul
     
  7. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    What if it followed along these lines, this needs further attention but theres a patern between the two.

    Considering how the Lord Hosea says how the LORD has spoken

    Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

    Whereas the apostles say they spake

    1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    Sorta like bring out of your treasure old things (hidden sayings) and expounding new things through them.



    So there they were of one speech, but he says how is it ye understand MY speech because they could not hear HIS word. Would seem even spiritually speaking a decent reason to scatter them to leave off of that given its His purposes over mens would prevail. Theres a scattering point there and the disciples being scattered (then) a preaching of the word (identifying them as the stone the builders rejected).
     
  8. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Genesis 11:8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

    Jasher chapter 9: the history of the Tower shows it was not rebuilt, and the city was never finished. Nimrod built four cities and named them after the happenings at the tower, but Babylon was not the city of the tower, and that city is probably that closed area on the Arabian Peninsula called "The Empty Quarter", and "ruins",The Arabian Peninsula area near Iraq would also have been included as "Shinar" before the tower event....Nimrod ruled it all.

     
  9. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    Seems towers were always coming down on folks even then. Well even Siloam but Jesus said they werent any worse sinners then those in Jerusalem, and when the disciples behold the temple then he spake of every stone being thrown down (even there)

    Psalm 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower

     
  10. BluhdoftheLamb

    BluhdoftheLamb Guest

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    Yeah, thank God for modern building codes?
     
  11. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    Heres his building code ;)

    Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me?

    Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

    1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    We also as lively stones are built up a spiritual house

    Ephes 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    1Peter 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

    Ephes 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

    Ephes 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    Acts 12:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

    Thank God for His building code is right huh? lol

    (Would love to say the same of my roofers) if you know what I mean?^_^
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2013
  12. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    The scriptures bear witness it was Christ who they preached which was rejected. He is the chief cornerstone. He has become "the head of the corner" a term used as the place to set the plumline by which we balance all other things.

    Paul
     
  13. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    that city is probably that closed area on the Arabian Peninsula called "The Empty Quarter", and "ruins",The Arabian Peninsula area near Iraq would also have been included as "Shinar" before the tower event....

    No, this is definitely incorrect. The people after Ararat moved eastward into Shinar...check a map...the Arabian Peninsula is south and west

    Paul
     
  14. purity2holiness

    purity2holiness Newbie

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    Thank you for your reply;
    I thought that God created the heavens and the earth and these 2 are quite separated; and if we refer to the garden of eden, it is just a portion of the earth that was made "invisible" to man and that is kept by 2 angels; yes, it is a spiritual place below 100km, but it is not heaven; also, these men wanted to build a tower whose top will touch heaven ...and according to christian teachings and believes, heaven is a spiritual place far above the sky, it is not a physical nor material place; now I wonder how the tower of bricks could have reached or touched the "spiritual" heaven to the point that the Lord saw it as threat for the Lord is "admitting" that because these men were united they could have achieved what ever they wanted to do:
    Genesis 11:6" And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."

    Now, my point is still that, if heaven is far above in the sky, it must be far above 100km and these men would have never reached their goal if we refer to science and God must have known that because he knows everything, so why did he react as if these men could have reached heaven?
     
  15. purity2holiness

    purity2holiness Newbie

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    Thank you for this reply but here I will not focus on "spiritual" meaning of the words stone and brick ....and to be honest, I even believe that this passage of Genesis give the answer to archeologists who ask themselves who build those piramids in stone; instead of them thinking that aliens did those buildings, these men are showing that they chose to do something new:
    instead of the usual stones that were used to build those pyramid, they wanted to use bricks, I believe that the Bible is showing us how the use of bricks was introduced in construction;

    My questions are still unanswered: why did the Lord see it as a threat the fact that these men wanted to build that tower? could they have reached their goal if we refer to what science reveals concerning the atmospheric layers? why did the Lord react that way? didn't he know about that scientific fact? also, heaven is a "spiritual" place, could have the material tower reached or touched heaven?
     
  16. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    No, heaven and earth are not separated in creation. They are all of a piece: and the heavens are not stretched out from the earth between the divided in two waters of creation until day 2 of creation week. Check it out in Genesis.

    Mount Eden is in the heavenly realm which is now veiled to us earthlings, unless God opens the heavens to our sight for a purpose.

    The Garden of Eden is Paradise, and that Paradise is in the third heaven, and that means that Eden is in the third heaven, in which the Garden is planted.
    That is where Adam was taken to, and set in, which is "God's rest", according to the original language of Genesis.

    That is where Adam was cast down from, driven away/divorced from, and cast down to earth as a fallen, dead in spirit, former son of God. Check out the Hebrew language of those words related to Adam's driving away/casting down/ falling/death.

    The restoration of all things will be when Jesus unites Paradise with earth, again, as the Firstborn of the New Man creation human being flesh; and sits there, on the throne of Eden's mount, ruling over the Dominion Adam lost when he died as a son of God, as the "Ish" who is the "Bridegroom" in the spiritual sense, of the Ishyah/Wife; which "Wife" is the Ransomed adopted sons of God adopted into His One Living Spirit and New Man Name, and therefore His "Temple" made with Living Stones for the Glory to indwell -and the Name of the New Man is "Israel", as Isaiah 49 states.

    2 Corinthians 12:
    ... 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

    Rev 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’


    The Tree of Life is in the midst of the Garden/Paradise of God, which is planted "in Eden".
    Eden is one of the seven mountains of earth's stretched out realm/in heaven, which were seen by Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam.

    That realm is also called "the breadth of earth" in Job and in Revelation. It is the stretched out realm, from earth, in which the sun, moon, and stars are set, and in which exists the City of God in Mount Eden, which Mount is also Mount Zion of the heavenly realm.
    It is where Adam was set before the fall, and got driven out of, which is the same as "divorced" from.

    Redemption is about being redeemed from our vain state of existence since the fall, to restoration in regeneration of our being, back to that which we were created to be, as building stones of the Temple not made with hands for the Glory of God to indwell.
     
  17. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    Hmmm well could delete that God spake by the ministry of the prophets using similudes (and also delete from them that Jesus would open his mouth in a parable uttering "hidden things" of old (we are so curious about). And delete his mention that he spake (even as they perceived it) this parable against them. And concerning that which was written down formerly and mind it naturally (in and of itself). Then I suppose we could imagine the LORD felt threatened by those (He actually gave breath to) using brick (of the earth he made) for stone and that He way way over reacted. God must have been completely oblivious to the scientific nature of the bricks. Not to mention the atmosphere he created. What could God know (then)? If He hadnt a clue to what our brilliant minds have figured out concerning "these things"

    One could imagine that I suppose. They set off to build "a tower" yet left off from building "a city"

    They come up with a better idea latter

    Isaiah 9:10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: lol

    Theres tons of buildings whose top reaches the heaven, even brick ones. Heaven in the more literal sense (also) can also just mean the sky, even as it speaks of the birds of heaven (which make their nests on high) too

    Top reaching to heaven is here

    Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

    And here (in a dream) with angels (ascending and descending upon it)

    Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

    Then here speaks to the Stone the builders rejected (and the angels ascending and descending upon him)

    John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.


    Naturally speaking, I dont know why brick bugged God
     
  18. BluhdoftheLamb

    BluhdoftheLamb Guest

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    I agree. This is one of those passages that makes no sense until you look at it in the Spiritual realm.
     
  19. purity2holiness

    purity2holiness Newbie

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    still, why did the Lord see these men initiative as a threat?
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2013
  20. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Because they were trying to get up and in by another way than the Gate of entry. The very name "Bab-El" translates to "Gate God".
    The cherubim with flaming swords were put on guard at the gate of entry into the Mount of God which is Eden/Mount Zion when he drove Adam out and cast him down to the earth below, and set the guards so that Adam [we are all Adam as to our name and kind -Genesis 5:2] could not enter in and eat the fruit of the Tree of Life, and so, live forever in defiled bodies that could only be cast into the Lake of Fire and not be able to be regenerated in flesh and glorified as sons of God, as temples made to bear the Glory of the Unseen Creator.

    Nimrod & Co wanted to "name themselves" gods and live forever by eating the fruit and taking over Mount Eden, where the throne of God is prepared for the Son of Man who has dominion over the earth.

    They wanted to get back to where Adam was cast down from when he died as the "prince" a son of God =an elohym, of the human being kind. Read Psalm 82 using the Hebrew concordance for the words. Notice that in the Hebrew, Adam is the one [echad] prince/elohym/son of God who died and was cast down and the congregation of elohym in Eden are being addressed to rule earth with righteousness [they are the Watchers set over earth] or they will "die like Adam, the one prince/son of God and be cast down".
     
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