The Atonement misnomer- sufficient for all, efficient for some

[bling]

We were kidnapped by satan in the Garden.
We are bought back by satan.
The blood saves.
Saves us from the power of satan.
Adam took our soul to the pawnshop...
Jesus got it back.

This is very similar to some of the Ransom Theories back in the third and forth century. Kidnapping and ransom paying was common practice back then. There was also a strong belief in a war going on in the Spiritual realm which God would eventually win.

Adam and Eve are not described as being kidnapped from the Garden; God kicked them out.

Satan told Eve what she was wanting to hear.

This puts the blame on satan and off of man, while God is blaming them and the serpent and not satan for doing what satan does.

Satan is not powerful enough to take anything away from God, yet this scenario makes satan out to be on equal with God. God can safely and easily take anything away from satan without needed Christ going to the cross.

God owes satan nothing and it would be wrong for God to pay a criminal kidnapper if He could do it another way.

Satan is still around doing what he does, so he has not been paid off.

Do not blame Adam, for our sins or even our situation, the Garden did not work for man.

 

[Brightfame52]

This is very similar to some of the Ransom Theories back in the third and forth century. Kidnapping and ransom paying was common practice back then. There was also a strong belief in a war going on in the Spiritual realm which God would eventually win.

Adam and Eve are not described as being kidnapped from the Garden; God kicked them out.

Satan told Eve what she was wanting to hear.

This puts the blame on satan and off of man, while God is blaming them and the serpent and not satan for doing what satan does.

Satan is not powerful enough to take anything away from God, yet this scenario makes satan out to be on equal with God. God can safely and easily take anything away from satan without needed Christ going to the cross.

God owes satan nothing and it would be wrong for God to pay a criminal kidnapper if He could do it another way.

Satan is still around doing what he does, so he has not been paid off.

Do not blame Adam, for our sins or even our situation, the Garden did not work for man.

The ransom is paid to God because mans enslavement to satan is Gods Judgment, satan is nothing but Gods pawn, It takes God to release one from the power of satan, it was His Law that was violated. Its God who concluded/imprisoned men into unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[GodsGrace101]

This is very similar to some of the Ransom Theories back in the third and forth century. Kidnapping and ransom paying was common practice back then. There was also a strong belief in a war going on in the Spiritual realm which God would eventually win.

Adam and Eve are not described as being kidnapped from the Garden; God kicked them out.

Satan told Eve what she was wanting to hear.

This puts the blame on satan and off of man, while God is blaming them and the serpent and not satan for doing what satan does.

Satan is not powerful enough to take anything away from God, yet this scenario makes satan out to be on equal with God. God can safely and easily take anything away from satan without needed Christ going to the cross.

God owes satan nothing and it would be wrong for God to pay a criminal kidnapper if He could do it another way.

Satan is still around doing what he does, so he has not been paid off.

Do not blame Adam, for our sins or even our situation, the Garden did not work for man.

I was discussing The Ransom Theory.
What happened in the garden is as you say.
But satan did get Eve to eat and give to Adam.
He's still responsible for the fall.

I don't know which atonement theory I would really support since each one is correct in some way.

I don't care for Penal Substitution because it portrays a wrathful God, but that might be right too.

Thanks for a good reply.

 

[GodsGrace101]

This is very similar to some of the Ransom Theories back in the third and forth century. Kidnapping and ransom paying was common practice back then. There was also a strong belief in a war going on in the Spiritual realm which God would eventually win.

Adam and Eve are not described as being kidnapped from the Garden; God kicked them out.

Satan told Eve what she was wanting to hear.

This puts the blame on satan and off of man, while God is blaming them and the serpent and not satan for doing what satan does.

Satan is not powerful enough to take anything away from God, yet this scenario makes satan out to be on equal with God. God can safely and easily take anything away from satan without needed Christ going to the cross.

God owes satan nothing and it would be wrong for God to pay a criminal kidnapper if He could do it another way.

Satan is still around doing what he does, so he has not been paid off.

Do not blame Adam, for our sins or even our situation, the Garden did not work for man.

PS
I don't understand your last sentence...

 

[Clare73]

I was discussing The Ransom Theory.
What happened in the garden is as you say.
But satan did get Eve to eat and give to Adam.
He's still responsible for the fall.

I don't know which atonement theory I would really support since each one is correct in some way.

I don't care for Penal Substitution because it portrays a wrathful God, but that might be right too.

Thanks for a good reply.

See Ro 5:9. . .also Jn 3:36, Ro 1:18, Ro 2:5, Ro 9:22, Ro 13:4, Eph 2:3, 1Th 5:9, Rev 6:16, Rev 19:15.

Are your Scriptural views determined by your preferences, or by the word of God?

 

[bling]

The ransom is paid to God because mans enslavement to satan is Gods Judgment, satan is nothing but Gods pawn, It takes God to release one from the power of satan, it was His Law that was violated. Its God who concluded/imprisoned men into unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So, are you wanting to make God the criminal kidnapper?
You release them from God's restraining order to go to God?
God pays Himself the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ?

 

[bling]

PS
I don't understand your last sentence...

From the story we know Adam and Eve while sinless in the Garden did not fulfill their earthly objective and since they were the very best all human beings no one else would have fulfilled their earthly objective in that situation. This messed up world is the very best situation for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[bling]

I was discussing The Ransom Theory.
What happened in the garden is as you say.
But satan did get Eve to eat and give to Adam.
He's still responsible for the fall.

I don't know which atonement theory I would really support since each one is correct in some way.

I don't care for Penal Substitution because it portrays a wrathful God, but that might be right too.

Thanks for a good reply.

We all like Adam and Eve like to blame someone else for our sins. With our knowledge of “Good and Evil”, we know Eve was lusting after the fruit, being selfish, coveting what she could not have, and not seeking good council, but at the time these were not “sin”. Satan let her to a place these passions would cause her to sin obviously and outwardly, but it was still her choice since satan cannot make people sin.

All popular theories of atonement have huge issues, but you can figure it out with the help of the Spirit. Atonement is easier experienced than it is explained, so what did you go through when atonement took place for you?

 

[Clare73]

So, are you wanting to make God the criminal kidnapper?
You release them from God's restraining order to go to God?
God pays Himself the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ?

As much as the Judge up at the Courthouse pays himself the fine of the speeder.

 

[Brightfame52]

So, are you wanting to make God the criminal kidnapper?
You release them from God's restraining order to go to God?
God pays Himself the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ?

Cant you read ?

 

[Clare73]

From the story we know Adam and Eve while sinless in the Garden did not fulfill their earthly objective

And you know this how?
It's not about their earthly objective, it's about God's earthly objective.
And I say God's objective is always fulfilled, or he is not God.

and since they were the very best all human beings no one else would have fulfilled their earthly objective in that situation. This messed up world is the very best situation for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

It's not about their objective.
It's about God's objective, which is being accomplished exactly as he decreed from before the foundations of the world.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I was discussing The Ransom Theory.
What happened in the garden is as you say.
But satan did get Eve to eat and give to Adam.
He's still responsible for the fall.

I don't know which atonement theory I would really support since each one is correct in some way.

I don't care for Penal Substitution because it portrays a wrathful God, but that might be right too.

Thanks for a good reply.

@bling

Hi
Just reread the above.
By HE'S STILL RESP FOR THE FALL...

I mean Adam is responsible.

 

[GodsGrace101]

We all like Adam and Eve like to blame someone else for our sins. With our knowledge of “Good and Evil”, we know Eve was lusting after the fruit, being selfish, coveting what she could not have, and not seeking good council, but at the time these were not “sin”. Satan let her to a place these passions would cause her to sin obviously and outwardly, but it was still her choice since satan cannot make people sin.

All popular theories of atonement have huge issues, but you can figure it out with the help of the Spirit. Atonement is easier experienced than it is explained, so what did you go through when atonement took place for you?

I wasn't raised in a protestant home where being saved is commonly mentioned.
I was Catholic. So when I met Jesus, it was more about His help than His salvation, which, of course, also happened.

So, who knew about atonement. I read about the different theories by Morrison. Each one has some element of truth. I like Cristus Victus,
Moral Influence, and the Satisfaction Theory over Penal Institution.

 

[bling]

As much as the Judge up at the Courthouse pays himself the fine of the speeder.

If the judge pays the fine, it was not forgiven.
If the fine is forgiven by the person offended, then there is nothing to pay.
The judge normally does not have the personal power to just forgive a debt, the judge is there to uphold the Law.

 

[bling]

And you know this how?
It's not about their earthly objective, it's about God's earthly objective.
And I say God's objective is always fulfilled, or he is not God.

It is easy to understand Adam and Eve not fulfilling their earthly objective if you understand man’s objective.

Did Adam and Eve fulfill their objective by sinning?

Again, it is easy to understand God’s objective if you understand God’s Love:

• God is the epitome of Love and is thus called Love itself.
• God’s Love must be to be the greatest possible Love: unconditional, totally unselfish, sacrificial, illogical (needing nothing in return) and thought-out, not just emotional.
• God Love (unselfishness) would compel God to do or allow all He can to help willing individuals in the fulfillment of their objective.

We are back than to man’s objective, which I have explained to you repeatedly, do we need to go over it again?

It's not about their objective.
It's about God's objective, which is being accomplished exactly as he decreed from before the foundations of the world.

So, do you feel God has foreordained everything that has and will happen and man has no autonomous free will? Are we just robots going through some programmed routine?

 

[bling]

@bling

Hi
Just reread the above.
By HE'S STILL RESP FOR THE FALL...

I mean Adam is responsible.

This brings up another huge topic:

The Bible does not refer to Adam and Eve’s first sin as a “fall”, especially a fall for all mankind.

Man’s “nature” would not have to change form Adam and Eve’s nature for all mature adults to sin. Adam and Eve sinned with the nature they had and with only one way to sin, while mature adults have a tone of different ways to sin (the result of having the knowledge of good and evil written on their hearts [conscience]).

We should be grateful to Adam and Eve for going through the Garden situation to show us and them a ton of stuff including the fact the Garden situation is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

When my children first sinned, I did not see it as a “fall”, but a transition and maturing.

 

[Clare73]

So, are you wanting to make God the criminal kidnapper?
You release them from God's restraining order to go to God?
God pays Himself the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ?

As much as the Judge up at the Courthouse pays himself the fine of the speeder.

If the judge pays the fine, it was not forgiven.
If the fine is forgiven by the person offended, then there is nothing to pay.
The judge normally does not have the personal power to just forgive a debt, the judge is there to uphold the Law.

Relevance to my point that ransom does not necessarily mean kidnapper. . .as the judge collecting the fine is not a kidnapper?

 

[bling]

I wasn't raised in a protestant home where being saved is commonly mentioned.
I was Catholic. So when I met Jesus, it was more about His help than His salvation, which, of course, also happened.

So, who knew about atonement. I read about the different theories by Morrison. Each one has some element of truth. I like Cristus Victus,
Moral Influence, and the Satisfaction Theory over Penal Institution.

Thank you for sharing.

What I was referring to was your experience being something similar to what those 3000 on Pentecost.

Acts 2: 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” 37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

When we come to the realization that our sins cause the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ, we experience a death blow to our hearts (the worst feeling we can have and live. We empathically experience (like Paul said he did) being crucified with Christ. The only thing allowing us to go on is the fact the greatest Love is being shown us at the same time.

 

[bling]

Relevance to my point that ransom does not necessarily mean kidnapper. . .as the judge collecting the fine is not a kidnapper?

I did not come up with the idea of calling the atonement sacrifice a ransom payment, Jesus called it that, Peter called it that, john called it that, Paul called it that and the Hebrew writer called it that. Is this unbelievable huge ransom payment like a tax or a fine paid by the offender, is it like some reasonable purchase price for a slave, or is it like the greatest payment you could make to an underserving criminal kidnapper?
This is not a judge (God) collecting a payment of Christ being tortured, humiliated and cruelly murdered.

 

[Clare73]

So, do you feel God has foreordained everything that has and will happen and man has no autonomous free will? Are we just robots going through some programmed routine?

Man's will does not operate in a vacuum, it is governed by the disposition (what one prefers or dislikes).
God works in the disposition giving one to prefer his will, and that is what one freely and willingly chooses because one prefers it.

God doe not violate man's free will, God uses man's free will to bring men to himself.