The Atheist's dilemma

[Aldebaran]

How patronising!

Oh hush!

 

[PsychoSarah]

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Never thought I would use a John verse against a Christian

Seriously though, how can anyone who has read the bible think that it ever suggests someone besides Jesus can live without sin?

 

[BL2KTN]

Well, Jeremy also thinks he was sent here by Yahweh specifically because he has more knowledge of Islam than any other Christian on the forums.

The hubris is heavy on that one.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Well, Jeremy also thinks he was sent here by Yahweh specifically because he has more knowledge of Islam than any other Christian on the forums.

The hubris is heavy on that one.

Wait what? I might need a link for that.

 

[Deidre32]

Sorry! Didn't mean for it to sound that way. It's just that you said

ok Ty

God most certainly DOES forgive! The entire foundation of Christianity is that Christ came here so that we WOULD have forgiveness.

The god of the bible sounds like yes he forgives, but he has limits. His "love" sounds conditional, yet Jesus told his followers to always forgive.

I don't believe in hell but if I did, it would seem like a "place" invented by a god who does not forgive, always.

If you were a parent, could u ever see yourself disowning your child? Banishing him or her from your life?

Idk. Just doesn't make sense to meeee.

 

[bhsmte]

There may be a god, yes. But, I disbelieve he is the one characterized in the Abrahamic faiths. For a number of reasons, and some of which I listed already in this thread. What you say is true, but heaven, hell, original sin, Jesus' death and resurrection, etc...these are the tenets of Christianity that have no validity in and of themselves. No matter how much I believe something, doesn't make it fact.

If someone told you that the Holocaust took place, but there was no historical proof of it, just some hearsay allegations of it, would you believe it? Probably not. But, there's a lot written about it. Eye witnesses, some who are still alive, to tell what happened. WWII was a well documented war. It isn't hearsay, written in one book, for you to 'guess' at.

That's why the Bible is an insufficient book to use as proof of a god. But, it can be a sufficient book, if one chooses to believe the story told within it. But, for me, I got tired of making excuses for the obvious gaps and contradictions made throughout it. Faith shouldn't cause me to employ no logic, and logically speaking, the Bible story has no historical merit to it.

But, to your point, you can still feel that a god exists.

Well said!

 

[Eudaimonist]

Seriously though, how can anyone who has read the bible think that it ever suggests someone besides Jesus can live without sin?

True, that claim is very difficult to believe. I tend to take more seriously the claim that Christians are "not perfect, just forgiven".


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

He could have put an end to it from the very beginning.

He could have if that was what He wanted to do.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Never thought I would use a John verse against a Christian

I agree with the above.

If I claim to be sinless I am a liar.

I never claimed to be sinless. I claimed that I am CAPABLE of living without sinning.

IOW, it is POSSIBLE for me to live without sinning.

IOW, I as a Christian, have a choice to sin or not.

IOW, I am not determined to sin.

IOW, I do not HAVE to sin.

IOW, there is no passage of scripture that will state that I as a Christian have no other choice but to sin.

Read the ENTIRE letter of 1 John.

 

[Freodin]

I agree with the above.

If I claim to be sinless I am a liar.

I never claimed to be sinless. I claimed that I am CAPABLE of living without sinning.

IOW, it is POSSIBLE for me to live without sinning.

IOW, I as a Christian, have a choice to sin or not.

IOW, I am not determined to sin.

IOW, I do not HAVE to sin.

IOW, there is no passage of scripture that will state that I as a Christian have no other choice but to sin.

Read the ENTIRE letter of 1 John.

If it is possible, and your choice... then why don't you?

Where are all those people who chose not to sin... the ones that don't need Jesus to save them, because they don't have anything to be saved from?

 

[Aldebaran]

The god of the bible sounds like yes he forgives, but he has limits. His "love" sounds conditional, yet Jesus told his followers to always forgive.

I don't believe in hell but if I did, it would seem like a "place" invented by a god who does not forgive, always.

If you were a parent, could u ever see yourself disowning your child? Banishing him or her from your life?

Idk. Just doesn't make sense to meeee.

Jesus told his followers to always forgive because they were his followers, hence forgiven. That's the reason they should forgive--they were forgiven themselves.

If I were a parent, and my child decided to leave me and not come back, I would have to allow him to do so if that's what he or she chose to do, but would welcome him / her back with open arms if they decided to return. The biblical story of the prodigal son is an example of this.

 

[Deidre32]

Jesus told his followers to always forgive because they were his followers, hence forgiven. That's the reason they should forgive--they were forgiven themselves.

If I were a parent, and my child decided to leave me and not come back, I would have to allow him to do so if that's what he or she chose to do, but would welcome him / her back with open arms if they decided to return. The biblical story of the prodigal son is an example of this.

So, going with what you're saying...why the need for "hell" to exist? A common reply (I used to say it when I was a Christian) was...''well, people choose hell, if they choose to not follow Jesus. God doesn't place anyone there, they choose it.'' Etc...different variations to that same theme I've heard...

If God is an all loving, all forgiving god, there would be no hell. Would you turn your back on your child for all eternity, if your child disobeyed you? Didn't listen to you? Didn't love you?

A god of conditions, at best....just my pov. (the one portrayed in the Bible)

 

[Aldebaran]

So, going with what you're saying...why the need for "hell" to exist? A common reply (I used to say it when I was a Christian) was...''well, people choose hell, if they choose to not follow Jesus. God doesn't place anyone there, they choose it.'' Etc...different variations to that same theme I've heard...

If God is an all loving, all forgiving god, there would be no hell. Would you turn your back on your child for all eternity, if your child disobeyed you? Didn't listen to you? Didn't love you?

A god of conditions, at best....just my pov. (the one portrayed in the Bible)

But he's also a good of justice, as well as love. When people go their own way and reject God, they get justice. When they seek his forgiveness, they receive mercy.

I'm not an expert on Hell, but what I've heard about it is that Hell is pretty much an absence from God. So you are either with Him, or you are away from Him. Christ has given us a way to be close to Him. The rejection of Him will mean just the opposite.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

If it is possible, and your choice... then why don't you?

Why do I not live without sinning?

I am afraid the answer to this is very simple.

Part of me still wants to be worshiped instead of the one who worships. Part of me still wants to be selfish instead of selfless, prideful instead of humble and meek, evil instead of good, harmful instead of helpful, mean and hateful instead of loving, judgmental instead of understanding, harsh instead of compassionate, quick to condemn instead of longsuffering, unmerciful instead of merciful, ungracious instead of gracious.


When I am faithless I have the potential to be all of the above. When I set anything before God, I make that thing the object of my worship.

The old Jeremy wants to be like the old Jeremy. The New Jeremy wants to be like Jesus.

That is why I sin. Ultimately, all sin stems from pride and a want of trust and love in and for God.

Where are all those people who chose not to sin... the ones that don't need Jesus to save them, because they don't have anything to be saved from?

This question assumes there are people who chose not to sin and lived sinless lives.

I do not think anyone except Jesus Christ could be said to be sinless, thus everyone needs a Saviour.

 

[Hakan101]

So, going with what you're saying...why the need for "hell" to exist? A common reply (I used to say it when I was a Christian) was...''well, people choose hell, if they choose to not follow Jesus. God doesn't place anyone there, they choose it.'' Etc...different variations to that same theme I've heard...

If God is an all loving, all forgiving god, there would be no hell. Would you turn your back on your child for all eternity, if your child disobeyed you? Didn't listen to you? Didn't love you?

A god of conditions, at best....just my pov. (the one portrayed in the Bible)

The teaching of God being "all loving, all forgiving" is not that simple as some think. God loves all of us and takes no pleasure in our suffering, and he is forgiving, but not without atonement. We cannot earn our own righteousness, we fall short every time we try. Jesus willingly died on the cross to fulfill that righteousness, he was a perfect sacrifice and so when we faithe in Jesus, who did not sin, God forgives us no matter how many sins we may have committed. That is how he is all-forgiving and all-loving.

When you say child, it is more accurate to say offspring. Children grow up into adults. Yes we always love them because they came from us, but they are fully conscious beings with minds, and can choose to go down an evil route. We always love them, but if they stay down a wicked path and just won't listen, then parents will let them go because they can't stop them anyways. The offspring will be accountable for anything they do. It might even kill them. However, if our offspring ever turns from their path and comes back to us for support and guidance to get on the right path, what loving parent wouldn't take them back?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

The teaching of God being "all loving, all forgiving" is not that simple as some think. God loves all of us and takes no pleasure in our suffering, and he is forgiving, but not without atonement. We cannot earn our own righteousness, we fall short every time we try. Jesus willingly died on the cross to fulfill that righteousness, he was a perfect sacrifice and so when we faithe in Jesus, who did not sin, God forgives us no matter how many sins we may have committed. That is how he is all-forgiving and all-loving.

When you say child, it is more accurate to say offspring. Children grow up into adults. Yes we always love them because they came from us, but the have minds, ideas, and can choose to go down an evil route. We always love them, but if they stay down a wicked path and just won't listen, then parents will let them go because they can't stop them anyways. The offspring will be accountable for anything they do. It might even kill them. However, if our offspring ever turns from their path and comes back to us for support and guidance to get on the right path, what loving parent wouldn't take them back?

I agree.

It needs to be mentioned, and should go without saying, that God cannot forgive everyone.

He cannot forgive those who do not want to be forgiven.

If one does not think he needs to be forgiven of anything, then obviously, he is not going to desire to be forgiven.

Thus a knowledge of one's sinfulness and a conviction of this sinfulness is a prerequisite to asking for forgiveness. For such a one, God is more willing to forgive than any of us can imagine. For such a one that rejects God's testimony that they are in need of a Saviour, God must allow them to have what they want.

C.S. Lewis once again says it so well:

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

 

[Freodin]

Why do I not live without sinning?

I am afraid the answer to this is very simple.

Part of me still wants to be worshiped instead of the one who worships. Part of me still wants to be selfish instead of selfless, prideful instead of humble and meek, evil instead of good, harmful instead of helpful, mean and hateful instead of loving, judgmental instead of understanding, harsh instead of compassionate, quick to condemn instead of longsuffering, unmerciful instead of merciful, ungracious instead of gracious.


When I am faithless I have the potential to be all of the above. When I set anything before God, I make that thing the object of my worship.

The old Jeremy wants to be like the old Jeremy. The New Jeremy wants to be like Jesus.

That is why I sin. Ultimately, all sin stems from pride and a want of trust and love in and for God.

I'm afraid it is not that simple as you make it.

There is a "part of you" that wants to sin? Then choose not to! It is your choice! There is nothing that compels you! Or so you said.

But that's not it. You talked about an "old you" and a "new you". Where is the difference? What distinguishes the "old" from the "new"? Isn't that also a choice for you to make?

This question assumes there are people who chose not to sin and lived sinless lives.

I do not think anyone except Jesus Christ could be said to be sinless, thus everyone needs a Saviour.

Yes, this questions assumes that, if there is said to be a "choice", and it is never ever taken, by anyone anywhere... there is no choice at all. The system is rigged.

 

[quatona]

It needs to be mentioned, and should go without saying, that God cannot forgive everyone.

He cannot forgive those who do not want to be forgiven.

Why is that?

If one does not think he needs to be forgiven of anything, then obviously, he is not going to desire to be forgiven.

And how exactly is that an obstacle to forgive them anyway?

C.S. Lewis once again says it so well:

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

In the end?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I agree with the above.

If I claim to be sinless I am a liar.

I never claimed to be sinless. I claimed that I am CAPABLE of living without sinning.

IOW, it is POSSIBLE for me to live without sinning.

IOW, I as a Christian, have a choice to sin or not.

IOW, I am not determined to sin.

IOW, I do not HAVE to sin.

IOW, there is no passage of scripture that will state that I as a Christian have no other choice but to sin.

Read the ENTIRE letter of 1 John.

So then you personally chose to be sinful even though by your own claim it was possible for you not to sin? Are you joking? If it really was possible to live your whole life without sin, many of the foundational teachings of Christianity would be compromised. Nonbelievers would be able to get into heaven, because the whole point of belief is to absolve you of your sins. No sins to begin with, no need for belief to absolve you of them. Christianity teaches that all people are born with sin, literally by being human you have sin, thus ensuring that in the Christian faiths one has to be a believer or they go to hell.

 

[EdmundPClowney]

For a fire is kindled by my anger,
and it burns to the depths of Sheol,
devours the earth and its increase,
and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

-Deuteronomy 32:22


For great is your steadfast love toward me; you have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

-psalm 86:13

The Lord kills and brings to life;
he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

-1 Samuel 2:6

Therefore Sheol has enlarged its appetite
and opened its mouth beyond measure,
and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude will go down,
her revelers and he whoexults in her.

-Isaiah 5:14

Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.

-Isaiah 14:9 (honey, I'm home!)

Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we have an agreement, when the overwhelming whip passes through it will not come to us, for we have made[bless and do not curse]lies our refuge, and in falsehood we have taken shelter"

-Isaiah 28:15

Then your covenant with death will be annulled,
and your agreement with Sheol will not stand;
when the overwhelming scourge passes through,
you will be beaten down by it.

-Isaiah 28:18

calling to those who pass by,
who are[bless and do not curse]going straight on their way,
"Whoever is simple, let him turn in here!"
And to him who lacks sense she says,
"Stolen water is sweet,
and bread eaten in secret is pleasant."
But he does not know that the dead are there,
that her guests are in the depths of Sheol.

-Proverbs 9:15-18

The path of life leads upward for the prudent,
that he may turn away from Sheol beneath.

Proverbs 15:4


And may I also recommend the first chapter of Isaiah. Fascinating perspective there on the topic