The Atheist path; a path of liberation or of necessity?

[OldWiseGuy]

Ok, now for health:

Here are some medical breakthroughs in the last 150 years and the number of lives saved by each:

Chlorination of Water: 177,000,000
Smallpox Eradication: 131,000,000
Eight Different Vaccines: 129,000,000
Measles Vaccine: 120,000,000
Penicillin: 82,000,000
Diptheria/Tetanus Vaccine: 60,000,000
Oral Rehydration Therapy: 54,000,000
Diptheria/Tetanus antitoxins: 42,000,000
Angioplasty: 15,000,000
Whooping Cough Vaccine: 14,000,000
Rational Drug Design: 5,000,000

We have a whole new list of medical problems that we aren't doing so well addressing. We have meds for HIV, but it is rampant in many places. We have eliminated hunger, and now we have obesity and diabetes. Angioplasty, CABG, transplants, etc. haven't reduced the incidents of heart disease. Millions still die from dehydration. Antibiotics are becoming less effective, dangerously so. Prescription drugs often had horrendous side effects. We've "traded our headaches for an upset stomach".

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Untrue, at least for both health and wealth.

Not even close - people are getting healthier and wealthier. By a lot, as you willshortly learn.

Remember that I also measure progress by where we should be, not by where we are.

 

[expos4ever]

We have a whole new list of medical problems that we aren't doing so well addressing. We have meds for HIV, but it is rampant in many places. We have eliminated hunger, and now we have obesity and diabetes. Angioplasty, CABG, transplants, etc. haven't reduced the incidents of heart disease. Millions still die from dehydration. Antibiotics are becoming less effective, dangerously so. Prescription drugs often had horrendous side effects. We've "traded our headaches for an upset stomach".

Unsubstantiated. Where is your data?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Unsubstantiated. Where is your data?

I thought this was common knowledge. (Am I the only one who knows this stuff?)

WHO | HIV infection rates decreasing in several countries but global number of people living with HIV continues to rise

Obesity and diabetes: the slow-motion disaster Keynote address at the 47th meeting of the National Academy of Medicine

https://news.heart.org/american-hea...ical-report-tracks-global-figures-first-time/

The Global Cancer Burden | American Cancer Society

WHO | World Health Organization

While drug side effects are rarely fatal they can greatly impact quality of life. Who wants to live a long...miserable.....life. I speak from experience.

Drug Side Effects | Drugs.com

Dehydration is still a global problem, even in developed countries.

WHO | Childhood Diseases in Africa

http://www.hydrateforhealth.co.uk/w...still-a-problem-Nursing-Times-3-June-2011.pdf

Student initiative looks to raise water's 'cool factor'

 

[expos4ever]

Hi Old Wise Guy,

While there are some reverses, the overall trend worldwide as far as health and wealth is dramatically upwards.

The data is very clear on this. Do you really believe that OVERALL health and wealth are declining? If so, i can show this is not the case.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Hi Old Wise Guy,

While there are some reverses, the overall trend worldwide as far as health and wealth is dramatically upwards.

The data is very clear on this. Do you really believe that OVERALL health and wealth are declining? If so, i can show this is not the case.

Data doesn't tell the story. Increases in income don't produce 'wealth' for most of the world. It's a 'catch up' game that they will never win as they will never catch up regardless of 'numerical' increases in income. My link revealed that global average net worth is about $10,000. This is not "wealth" any stretch, especially today.

Regarding health, the absence of illness isn't real health, especially in the west where two thirds are obese, plagued with heart disease and cancer, whose lives are prolonged by surgery and drugs. The developing world is in a sorry state as well.

The metric of happiness is in a sad state as well. We are plagued with fear and uncertainty in many areas. Just a cursory review of our social problems, personal problems, debt, illness, divorce, political angst, crime, etc. certainly reveals this.

Compared to where we should be in these areas we are certainly going backward (using 'budget cuts' that are actually increases as an example of the math).

 

[expos4ever]

Data doesn't tell the story.

Convenient dodge. You are defending a position that is at odds with the actual facts, as represented in the form of actual data. So, it seems, you have to somehow dismiss the actual evidence to maintain your view.

Increases in income don't produce 'wealth' for most of the world. It's a 'catch up' game that they will never win as they will never catch up regardless of 'numerical' increases in income. My link revealed that global average net worth is about $10,000. This is not "wealth" any stretch, especially today.

Why do you assume that others need to "catch up"? I have never stated the world is more equal, just that everyone, on average, is getting much wealthier over time. And the data support this (otherwise, I would not believe it):

When measured as a percentage of the world's population living on less than $2 a day, the numbers of people in extreme poverty is now less than 10% for the first time in history, according to World Bank report released on Sunday. The Bank said in its statement on the website that the numbers provided evidence that a quarter-century-long sustained reduction in poverty is moving the world closer to the goal of ending poverty by 2030.

And there is much more similar data.

 

[expos4ever]

Data doesn't tell the story. Increases in income don't produce 'wealth' for most of the world. It's a 'catch up' game that they will never win as they will never catch up regardless of 'numerical' increases in income. My link revealed that global average net worth is about $10,000. This is not "wealth" any stretch, especially today.

When measured as a percentage of the world's population living on less than $2 a day, the numbers of people in extreme poverty is now less than 10% for the first time in history, according to World Bank report released on Sunday. The Bank said in its statement on the website that the numbers provided evidence that a quarter-century-long sustained reduction in poverty is moving the world closer to the goal of ending poverty by 2030.

- Kathleen O'Toole, Stanford Graduate School of Business

 

[Kaon]

As someone who respects atheists and enjoys befriending them, I was just curious to hear some peoples personal views on how they feel about their atheism.

...Do you feel liberated, free and happy in it?

...Or do you basically feel like it's just where life landed you?

Thanks for sharing your story,
Landon

I was agnostic most of my life, and then Christian by the time I finished University.

I never believed no deity at all exists (especially after Uni,) but I found every religion to be made of misinformation - propped up by an ecumenical system ruled by men, telling other men what to do. What really bothered me is that the men determined what was spiritually correct for other men (i.e. removing and adding relevant texts.)

I had to completely abandon demomination, literally talk to my Father and explain why I would be ignorant of Him, and If I was His child, He would bring me out of it and open my heart and eyes only to Him.

All This before I made the committment.


I began supremely agnostic, basically entertaining the idea of other deities just so that I could argue the ludicrousness of organized religion. The events that led me here werent my own doing though; in retrospect it is clear every event (even my alleged agnosticism) led me to this moment of faith and belief.

 

[expos4ever]

Regarding health, the absence of illness isn't real health, especially in the west where two thirds are obese, plagued with heart disease and cancer, whose lives are prolonged by surgery and drugs.

From the Center for Disease Control:

For most of the last century, the leading cause of death in the United States, as measured by actual deaths, was heart disease, followed by cancer (1). Cancer overtook heart disease to become the leading cause of death in 1 state (Alaska) in 1993, 2 states in 2000, 8 states in 2005, and 23 states in 2010, although the trend slowed or stopped in recent years (2,3).

The age-standardized death rate approximates the population’s risk of dying from a given cause and is used to compare risk of death between populations or within a population over time. Declining death rates indicate that the overall risk to the population of dying from heart disease or cancer decreased.

 

[expos4ever]

The developing world is in a sorry state as well.

Since 1990, there's been a sustained and massive collapse in the number of people who have difficulty accessing food.

The data comes from the 2014 Global Hunger Index, a measure of global hunger from the International Food Policy Research Institute. The index tracks "the percentage of the population that is undernourished, the percentage of children younger than five years of age who are underweight, and the percentage of people who die before the age of five." Malnutrition is particularly bad for children, and poor access to food makes kids way more vulnerable to diseases, the leading cause of child death in the developing world.

The Index goes from zero, which indicates a country with no undernutrition, to 100, a country where everyone goes hungry.

From 1990 to 2014, this metric has streadily dropped from about 21% to about 12.5%.

Again, we cannot go by what we see in the news - the news disproportionately focuses on the negative. This should be obvious.

 

[expos4ever]

The metric of happiness is in a sad state as well. We are plagued with fear and uncertainty in many areas. Just a cursory review of our social problems, personal problems, debt, illness, divorce, political angst, crime, etc. certainly reveals this.

First, you present no actual data - no actual numbers. So why should we believe your claim that the "metric of happiness is in a sad state as well"? But there is another problem here - measuring "happiness" can be deeply misleading if, as I am prepared to show, people get bad information about the state of the world - information that grossly over-represents the negative and is silent on the positive.

Again, every day 137,000 people escape extreme poverty. Yet we never hear about this.

 

[expos4ever]

Compared to where we should be in these areas we are certainly going backward (using 'budget cuts' that are actually increases as an example of the math).

Moving the goalposts. We are not talking about "where we should be" - obviously, we will be falling short of where we should be. We are talking about whether health and wealth are, on average, improving worldwide. And the answer to that is a resounding yes (thankfully).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Since 1990, there's been a sustained and massive collapse in the number of people who have difficulty accessing food.

The data comes from the 2014 Global Hunger Index, a measure of global hunger from the International Food Policy Research Institute. The index tracks "the percentage of the population that is undernourished, the percentage of children younger than five years of age who are underweight, and the percentage of people who die before the age of five." Malnutrition is particularly bad for children, and poor access to food makes kids way more vulnerable to diseases, the leading cause of child death in the developing world.

The Index goes from zero, which indicates a country with no undernutrition, to 100, a country where everyone goes hungry.

From 1990 to 2014, this metric has streadily dropped from about 21% to about 12.5%.

Again, we cannot go by what we see in the news - the news disproportionately focuses on the negative. This should be obvious.

I take a more pessimistic view, as expressed in this data.

Global Hunger and Global Obesity Are Both Rising, and Can Stem From the Same Issues

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Moving the goalposts. We are not talking about "where we should be" - obviously, we will be falling short of where we should be.

Actually I am, as noted in several earlier posts. For example many people who were once underfed are now overfed, with more health problem than when they were underfed. So their present condition is worse than when they were hungry. So their health in real terms is worse. And the cost of their medical care will keep them poor, as well as their country. A few will benefit, most will not.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

When measured as a percentage of the world's population living on less than $2 a day, the numbers of people in extreme poverty is now less than 10% for the first time in history, according to World Bank report released on Sunday. The Bank said in its statement on the website that the numbers provided evidence that a quarter-century-long sustained reduction in poverty is moving the world closer to the goal of ending poverty by 2030.

- Kathleen O'Toole, Stanford Graduate School of Business

Any gains made by the poor will vanish soon as already drastic income inequality will worsen. Medical care especially will gobble up any increases in income. Also increased income doesn't necessarily translate to accumulation of wealth as living costs outpace these increases.

 

[Ken-1122]

Remember that I also measure progress by where we should be, not by where we are.

Who decides where we should be? And how do you know we aren't already there?

Any gains made by the poor will vanish soon as already drastic income inequality will worsen.

Income inequality is usually an indicator that the poor is doing better, not worse.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Who decides where we should be? And how do you know we aren't already there?

I do of course, and one just needs to look around.

Income inequality is usually an indicator that the poor is doing better, not worse.

There is a finite amount of wealth.
The rich are getter richer.
Therefore the poor are getting poorer.

It also must be noted that the national debt is apportioned equally among all citizens, which leaves all the poor and much of the middle class with negative net worth, while the share of the rich is chump change (around $55,000 per citizen).

Government debt also impacts the wealth of many of the world's countries and must be figured into any measure of individual income and net worth.

 

[Nithavela]

I do of course, and one just needs to look around.



There is a finite amount of wealth.
The rich are getter richer.
Therefore the poor are getting poorer.

Not so. Wealth is increasing. The living standard of a lower class worker in a developed country is miles ahead of the living standard of a medieval noble, if with a little less gold plating.

 

[expos4ever]

There is a finite amount of wealth.
The rich are getter richer.
Therefore the poor are getting poorer.

Demonstrably incorrect.

The gross world product - a measure of wealth - has increased by a factor of 200 in since the 18th century.