The Atheist path; a path of liberation or of necessity?

[jayem]

My point is that indifference to 'tragedy' and 'injustice' would facilitate expeditious problem solving. For example the atheist has no reason the cite injustice as a reason to oppose capital punishment, which would greatly expedite the removal of criminals permanently from society, as they believe that there is no objective morality, thus no objective moral imperative to be considered in such decisions.

I don't follow your logic. I'm an atheist, and I absolutely want people to be protected from dangerous criminals. But I don't want innocent people to be mistakenly accused of crimes and suffer whatever fate society decides is just desert for the guilty. That would unquestionably be injustice. If we expeditiously execute anyone charged with murder, then it could happen to me. Or to you. It should be difficult to put people to death. If it is to be done, then evidence of guilt should be overwhelming, and there should many layers of review to confirm that true justice is being served. And that's not any deep moral thinking. It's just common sense.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't follow your logic. I'm an atheist, and I absolutely want people to be protected from dangerous criminals. But I don't want innocent people to be mistakenly accused of crimes and suffer whatever fate society decides is just desert for the guilty. That would unquestionably be injustice. If we expeditiously execute anyone charged with murder, then it could happen to me. Or to you. It should be difficult to put people to death. If it is to be done, then evidence of guilt should be overwhelming, and there should many layers of review to confirm that true justice is being served. And that's not any deep moral thinking. It's just common sense.

This doesn't square with your post #42, which suggests that we are just another animal that lives for awhile then returns to the soil. Nature expresses no morals, no selectivity, makes no mistakes in regard to life and death. You can't have it both ways.

 

[essentialsaltes]

This doesn't square with your post #42, which suggests that we are just another animal that lives for awhile then returns to the soil.

That has nothing to do with being indifferent to injustice.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That has nothing to do with being indifferent to injustice.

He's a naturalist. Nature is indifferent to justice but is concerned with survival. Humans have the choice of allowing crime to destroy us, or destroy criminals and save ourselves.

 

[essentialsaltes]

He's a naturalist. Nature is indifferent to justice.

That the universe is indifferent is not the same as saying that people are indifferent.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That the universe is indifferent is not the same as saying that people are indifferent.

You can't have it both ways. I knew another 'naturalist', who had utter disdain for humanity but was an ardent supporter of organizations that cared for animals.

 

[essentialsaltes]

You can't have it both ways. I knew another 'naturalist', who had utter disdain for humanity but was an ardent supporter of organizations that cared for animals.

That's nice, but irrelevant. The universe is indifferent about the World Cup, but that doesn't require people to be so. Or about any other things that humans have conceived, like ideas of justice.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's nice, but irrelevant. The universe is indifferent about the World Cup, but that doesn't require people to be so. Or about any other things that humans have conceived, like ideas of justice.

We have perverted even the meaning of justice.

 

[Desk trauma]

My point is that indifference to 'tragedy' and 'injustice' would facilitate expeditious problem solving.

You misunderstood what I was saying. I am not indifferent to injustice or tragedy I just think that they take place in a universe that is indifferent to us so I don't have to make sense of them as if the universe gave a damn. If anything they are more of a concern as there is no peaceful place their victims go to upon expiring were all wrongs are righted and the only way that we can have a better world is to make one rather than wait on some eschatological settling of accounts.

 

[Desk trauma]

You can't have it both ways

You very much can. The universe is indifferent and nature is cruel, our intelligence allows us not to be so.

 

[MehGuy]

As someone who respects atheists and enjoys befriending them, I was just curious to hear some peoples personal views on how they feel about their atheism.

...Do you feel liberated, free and happy in it?

...Or do you basically feel like it's just where life landed you?

Thanks for sharing your story,
Landon

I'd very much rather be a theist than an atheist. Sadly I'm too self aware of the fact that I lack any evidence to justify a belief in a God. My masochistic mind pretty much set that into stone.

My mind was/is pretty good at harnessing the benefits of spirituality. Most of which I'd chalk up to having a brain that is very excellent at processing emotional empathy. The biggest psychological need for the belief in a God in my opinion is the idea of wanting to put a sense of consciousness into otherwise lifeless matter. Humans are hardwired to be very social animals, we need to be surrounded by a steady supply of empathetic connections for our mental health. Solitary confinement is often one of the worst aspects of prison people experience. The psychological damage of long term solitary confinement is probably very ugly. With the idea of a God, you can plug empathetic connections almost anywhere. "God is within everything" is a popular sentiment. You're also able to overclock that emotional empathy. Where the highs of meditation on the divine can be similar to the highs someone can obtain being on stage during a rock concert surrounded by thousands of other empathetic vessels.

The major problem with my spirituality was that I was so good at meditating and overclocking the empathy. During the last year and a half of my theism I was able to feel pretty much constant intense emotional experiences during my waking hours. My need for friends and loved ones shrunk during this time, since the emotional connections of theism dwarfed that of real people. When I lost my faith I pretty much was subjected to a form of being in solitary confinement. The first two years of my atheism was like going through a very painful episode of cancer. I experienced what I'd call "chemical withdrawal". Even 10 years later I still feel largely emotionally dead.

If I ever do kill myself, losing my theism will be a major reason for it (I don't consider myself suicidal at the moment). Not to say other atheists or even most atheists experience that. For most former theists, I don't think their spiritual life was as intense as mine. So what they lost might not seem like a big deal for them, but for theists who are very spiritual I do very much worry about the consequences they might face if they ever do lose that theism. Sadly what I wrote here is probably the tip of the iceberg for how messed up my deconversion from theism was.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I'd very much rather be a theist than an atheist. Sadly I'm too self aware of the fact that I lack any evidence to justify a belief in a God. My masochistic mind pretty much set that into stone.

My mind was/is pretty good at harnessing the benefits of spirituality. Most of which I'd chalk up to having a brain that is very excellent at processing emotional empathy. The biggest psychological need for the belief in a God in my opinion is the idea of wanting to put a sense of consciousness into otherwise lifeless matter. Humans are hardwired to be very social animals, we need to be surrounded by a steady supply of empathetic connections for our mental health. Solitary confinement is often one of the worst aspects of prison people experience. The psychological damage of long term solitary confinement is probably very ugly. With the idea of a God, you can plug empathetic connections almost anywhere. "God is within everything" is a popular sentiment. You're also able to overclock that emotional empathy. Where the highs of meditation on the divine can be similar to the highs someone can obtain being on stage during a rock concert surrounded by thousands of other empathetic vessels.

The major problem with my spirituality was that I was so good at meditating and overclocking the empathy. During the last year and a half of my theism I was able to feel pretty much constant intense emotional experiences during my waking hours. My need for friends and loved ones shrunk during this time, since the emotional connections of theism dwarfed that of real people. When I lost my faith I pretty much was subjected to a form of being in solitary confinement. The first two years of my atheism was like going through a very painful episode of cancer. I experienced what I'd call "chemical withdrawal". Even 10 years later I still feel largely emotionally dead.

If I ever do kill myself, losing my theism will be a major reason for it (I don't consider myself suicidal at the moment). Not to say other atheists or even most atheists experience that. For most former theists, I don't think their spiritual life was as intense as mine. So what they lost might not seem like a big deal for them, but for theists who are very spiritual I do very much worry about the consequences they might face if they ever do lose that theism. Sadly what I wrote here is probably the tip of the iceberg for how messed up my deconversion from theism was.

That's how I would be.

...Honestly, I was expecting to see a lot of atheists say that they felt liberated by their atheism. I'm actually saddened by the fact that nobody does.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You very much can. The universe is indifferent and nature is cruel, our intelligence allows us not to be so.

But aren't we a product of that cruel and indifferent nature? And aren't many of our social policies actually cruel and indifferent cleverly disguised as 'just and moral'?

 

[Desk trauma]

But aren't we a product of that cruel and indifferent nature?

With the option to no longer live that way.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

With the option to no longer live that way.

Oh that we would exercise that option.

 

[MehGuy]

That's how I would be.

...Honestly, I was expecting to see a lot of atheists say that they felt liberated by their atheism. I'm actually saddened by the fact that nobody does.

I am not sure what there is to be liberated about. I can understand a theist feeling liberated when they leave a certain dogma, but they do not have to go as far as becoming an atheist to achieve that. Regarding my theistic life, I was pretty much a Christian all throughout it. Although probably a very unorthodox one. I loved the suffering mysticism I found within certain strains of Christianity, yet even I found my religion to be too suffocating. Before turning into an atheist I was actually gearing up to create my own custom religion. I wanted it to be science friendly, a distinct turn from my creationist upbringing. Even the idea of evolution was going to have a large part of my new faith, since I found evolution to be pretty brutal and suffering inducing it was a good fit for the suffering mysticism I liked as a Christian. If I were able to stay a theist and do that, it would have been very liberating.

While atheism is simply a lack of a belief, you can still be an atheist and find yourself entrapped in secular dogmas. Also to be a social animal, is to be bound or at least concerned about the thoughts of others. Perhaps the more free spirits are psychopaths (those without or with little emotional empathy) but even they tend to have to bend to the wills of society at times.

As a kid I was told that atheists were free thinkers who engaged in all sorts of weird things.. becoming an atheist and interreacting with other atheists I have been mostly disappointed. Lol. Herd mentality still exists, and people will always find ways to use shame and keep others in line.

 

[jayem]

He's a naturalist. Nature is indifferent to justice but is concerned with survival. Humans have the choice of allowing crime to destroy us, or destroy criminals and save ourselves.

You are overlooking a crucial point. Yes, nature is concerned with the survival of a species. But our species has evolved as social animals. With big brains. We thrive when we we are part of a well-functioning society. And we realize that any society that kills off its members indiscriminately is not likely to last very long. So we have developed an instinct of justice. We want to prevent the violent and anti-social among us from harming our population. But we must be selective. We don't want to maltreat those who are peaceful and pose no threat. Because if we do, then the survival of everyone is at risk. Do you see my point?

Edit: I forgot to add: You don't need any supernatural god for any of this. You only need an animal with social instincts, and a large brain with the ability to reason.

 

[Ana the Ist]

As someone who respects atheists and enjoys befriending them, I was just curious to hear some peoples personal views on how they feel about their atheism.

...Do you feel liberated, free and happy in it?

...Or do you basically feel like it's just where life landed you?

Thanks for sharing your story,
Landon

I think it's worth pointing out that emotions related to the belief that god doesn't exist are most likely relative to each person's prior beliefs...and the circumstances of their transition to disbelief.

For example, I never had what I'd describe as a strong belief in god, more of a vague general belief in a godlike concept. The first time I ever put serious thought to it, I became an atheist. That said, it was a similar feeling as learning that Santa doesn't exist...a slight disappointment followed by gradual acceptance. The only feelings I've had later on the topic were relief and if I'm being completely honest...a sort of smug sense of satisfaction. This really only occurs whenever I see someone led to do that which I wouldn't do, or believe what I wouldn't believe, because of their religious views/faith.

From my experiences talking with other atheists...the feelings I've had are fairly common, but can vary in either direction. Some, for example, who had believed for very long quite fervently, may experience what can best be described as a mild depression when coming to disbelief. Others, feel truly liberated, being free from perhaps strict constraints placed upon them by their prior belief. Other still may experience shame or embarrassment at believing so easily, for so long, and the things they did...or didn't do...because of that belief. Even others may still relate quite easily to believers and feel they fully understand their position even if it's not the position they hold any longer.

It's a wide wide range...though I think there's a somewhat natural arc that a lot of us go through. It's a good question Landon, and knowing you...I think an honest curiosity and not an attempt to goad atheists into an argument.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I am not sure what there is to be liberated about. I can understand a theist feeling liberated when they leave a certain dogma, but they do not have to go as far as becoming an atheist to achieve that. Regarding my theistic life, I was pretty much a Christian all throughout it. Although probably a very unorthodox one. I loved the suffering mysticism I found within certain strains of Christianity, yet even I found my religion to be too suffocating. Before turning into an atheist I was actually gearing up to create my own custom religion. I wanted it to be science friendly, a distinct turn from my creationist upbringing. Even the idea of evolution was going to have a large part of my new faith, since I found evolution to be pretty brutal and suffering inducing it was a good fit for the suffering mysticism I liked as a Christian. If I were able to stay a theist and do that, it would have been very liberating.

While atheism is simply a lack of a belief, you can still be an atheist and find yourself entrapped in secular dogmas. Also to be a social animal, is to be bound or at least concerned about the thoughts of others. Perhaps the more free spirits are psychopaths (those without or with little emotional empathy) but even they tend to have to bend to the wills of society at times.

As a kid I was told that atheists were free thinkers who engaged in all sorts of weird things.. becoming an atheist and interreacting with other atheists I have been mostly disappointed. Lol. Herd mentality still exists, and people will always find ways to use shame and keep others in line.

It's funny you bring up evolution into the concept of religion, because I was reading a post by Br. Mark Dohl, a monk I know from another forum, and he was talking about growing old (which I see as a form of micro-evolution), and he had said something that stuck with me:

[Snip]
"I do believe that as we age there are questions that we have to face, even if they can’t be answered to our liking. I will be 70 in December, a strange thought, but not an unhappy one……Even with the health problems, aches and pains, I still fell happy and wonder what the next decade will be like. I find myself feeling young inside, but on the outside, well, it is obvious that I am an older man. I often have to be reminded of it, mirrors are good for that..."

[Snip]
"...I have found that each state of life is more important than the one before it and more demanding. I remember that when I was young (as I am sure you do as well) the old cliché, “don’t trust anyone over 30”. The message, life is over at 30. Who says? When we get older, we are ‘forced’ to let go of old ways of seeing ourselves, perhaps we are being ‘honed’, cut back, so something else can come forth."
Who says!! Thoughts on the aging process and the spiritual journey.

The Brother is a brilliant human being, who writes articles on a professional level. I try to read as much of his work as I can.

...The point I think is that we are truly a work in progress. All the way. Through and through.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

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