The Atheist Asks #9: For Clarity

[KCfromNC]

Grimm, You chose to become atheist, others chose apathy, why the difference?

People don't consciously choose their beliefs.

 

[TillICollapse]

Gnosticism (in this context) is the claim of the knowledge of gods existing being obtainable. So it's not claiming if gods exist or not, it's claiming that a human being can even know such a thing (or not)



Sure it does, but you have to flip it. Gnosticism is the parent term to Agnosticism. Theism is the parent term for Atheism.

When discussing theism, Atheism can be entirely left out of the conversation. But when discussing Atheism you're still discussing theism, but from a negative position.

So in my mind: When I'm discussing Gnostics and Agnostics, I am discussing the view of Gnosticism whether I'm talking about a gnostic or an agnostic. All it is is Positive or Negative.

Same as when I'm discussing Atheists and Theists, I am discussing the views on theism.

It works as a blanket term. When discussing the antithesis of something you can almost never leave out the thesis. Which is why I pair the gnostic and agnostic view under gnosticism. They're both born from the same subject.

Final thoughts:

So does non stamp collecting fall under the heading of "stamp collecting" ? I don't smoke cigarettes, does that mean I fall under the heading of "smoker" anyways ? Does atheism fall under the heading of "religion" then as well since it falls under the heading of theism ? I would say not to all of the above.

I get what you're trying to say ... perhaps I've just never seen the terms used in those specific contexts before so it's new to me. Idk :/

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Grimm, You chose to become atheist, others chose apathy, why the difference?

When I was a theist there was always this constant grind in my head and a constant push. The things I had to tell myself just to quell this feeling down. Everything I was reading and being told by the church went against my common sense, logic, and reason. And just like any other church gooer it takes constant reaffirmation in order to make yourself "believe" it.

That's why people go to church and constantly re-read the bible. They have to keep saying these things over and over again... they need to recharge the Jesus juice so they can continue in their belief.

So what happens when you put the bible down? When you put down the silly reasoning and treat your belief as you would anything else in your life? When you stop going to church to hear the Bishop tell you your life problems have already been solved by the bible? When you let the battery run out... no more Jesus juice. When you accept you're going to die and all you have now is living.

Does a talking snake seem reasonable? Does a worldwide flood seem reasonable? Does a magic man in the sky seem realistic? Do the prayers of thousands who die of hunger going unanswered align with those who's superfluous prayers go "answered?" Does my God get the benefit of being real while the other thousands of gods that I've learned about don't?

When you start asking questions.

When you stop lying to yourself and just tell the truth, religion falls through your fingers like hot grease. It hurts, burns, and leaves a permanent mark on you, but it just goes away. And easily wiped off afterward.

Truth is I never did believe any of that stuff. I had to constantly lie to make myself "believe" it and I could recite it too. But just because you can memorize it doesn't make you believe it.

I can't believe in a talking snake.

I can't believe in somehow day and night being before the sun

I can't believe in rib women

I can't believe people living 9 centuries

And I can't believe there's some magic sky tyrant that hands out goodie bags arbitrarily to some and a flaming meteor to others.

I can't believe in a chosen race

I can't believe in those nasty plagues that were never recorded

When I was theistic I wanted to say all of that but I couldn't because I wanted to believe and feared God. So all these lies were fine. But now that I'm not. None of this is okay. Constant lying and wacky reasoning to believe these lies is not okay. It can do things to your mind.

If the bible said "2+2=5" I'd burn the bible, not people telling me otherwise.

I got tired of the lies.

Sorry. You're gonna have to make a case that doesn't bend logic and reasoning to make me believe this stuff.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I get what you're trying to say ... perhaps I've just never seen the terms used in those specific contexts before so it's new to me. Idk :/

It's just talking about the negative to a positive position. Don't worry I guess I'm strange.

 

[Colter]

When I was a theist there was always this constant grind in my head and a constant push. The things I had to tell myself just to quell this feeling down. Everything I was reading and being told by the church went against my common sense, logic, and reason. And just like any other church gooer it takes constant reaffirmation in order to make yourself "believe" it.

That's why people go to church and constantly re-read the bible. They have to keep saying these things over and over again... they need to recharge the Jesus juice so they can continue in their belief.

So what happens when you put the bible down? When you put down the silly reasoning and treat your belief as you would anything else in your life? When you stop going to church to hear the Bishop tell you your life problems have already been solved by the bible? When you let the battery run out... no more Jesus juice. When you accept you're going to die and all you have now is living.

Does a talking snake seem reasonable? Does a worldwide flood seem reasonable? Does a magic man in the sky seem realistic? Do the prayers of thousands who die of hunger going unanswered align with those who's superfluous prayers go "answered?" Does my God get the benefit of being real while the other thousands of gods that I've learned about don't?

When you start asking questions.

When you stop lying to yourself and just tell the truth, religion falls through your fingers like hot grease. It hurts, burns, and leaves a permanent mark on you, but it just goes away. And easily wiped off afterward.

Truth is I never did believe any of that stuff. I had to constantly lie to make myself "believe" it and I could recite it too. But just because you can memorize it doesn't make you believe it.

I can't believe in a talking snake.

I can't believe in somehow day and night being before the sun

I can't believe in rib women

I can't believe people living 9 centuries

And I can't believe there's some magic sky tyrant that hands out goodie bags arbitrarily to some and a flaming meteor to others.

I can't believe in a chosen race

I can't believe in those nasty plagues that were never recorded

When I was theistic I wanted to say all of that but I couldn't because I wanted to believe and feared God. So all these lies were fine. But now that I'm not. None of this is okay. Constant lying and wacky reasoning to believe these lies is not okay. It can do things to your mind.

If the bible said "2+2=5" I'd burn the bible, not people telling me otherwise.

I got tired of the lies.

Sorry. You're gonna have to make a case that doesn't bend logic and reasoning to make me believe this stuff.

I agree with this entire post and I am a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth, the author and finisher of my faith.

If the Bible was an internet forum, you have raised legitimate concerns about how other men on that forum interpreted certain transactions form the spiritual world over tens of thousands of years. You have rightly pointed out the inconsistencies of thinking projected onto God or Gods, on certain epochs of history, on history revisionism and blatant exaggeration on the part of church governments. All of these writings of holy men became the Word of God.

 

[Colter]

Over what I believe to be the purposive potential of the evolution of man, at points all along the way, say the Lemur, these ancestral benchmarks were inferior to what man is today.

Over what I believe to be the purposive potential of religious evolution, at points all along the way, the thinking of religious men was inferior to the cream of what we have today.

A college professor explained to me that to judge the past by the present, the past will always come up short. But the institution of religion is one that is very slow to change, it must have reform forced upon it.

 

[bhsmte]

Over what I believe to be the purposive potential of the evolution of man, at points all along the way, say the Lemur, these ancestral benchmarks were inferior to what man is today.

Over what I believe to be the purposive potential of religious evolution, at points all along the way, the thinking of religious men was inferior to the cream of what we have today.

A college professor explained to me that to judge the past by the present, the past will always come up short. But the institution of religion is one that is very slow to change, it must have reform forced upon it.

And it appears, the religious and God belief landscape in the United States, continues to change.

America’s Changing Religious Landscape | Pew Research Center

 

[HitchSlap]

I agree with this entire post and I am a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth, the author and finisher of my faith.

If the Bible was an internet forum, you have raised legitimate concerns about how other men on that forum interpreted certain transactions form the spiritual world over tens of thousands of years. You have rightly pointed out the inconsistencies of thinking projected onto God or Gods, on certain epochs of history, on history revisionism and blatant exaggeration on the part of church governments. All of these writings of holy men became the Word of God.

Have you come to terms with the fact that the four Gospels are anonymous?

 

[Colter]

Have you come to terms with the fact that the four Gospels are anonymous?

Not exactly, no.

 

[Colter]

And it appears, the religious and God belief landscape in the United States, continues to change.

America’s Changing Religious Landscape | Pew Research Center

The trend is downward, no question, but some people are spiritual without identifying with Christianity. There is a growing fascist attitude towards the Christian faith so some people may not want to be honest with pollsters.

 

[HitchSlap]

Not exactly, no.

Or the fact that these anonymous authors never met Jesus, lived in a country Jesus never lived, and wrote in a language Jesus never spoke?

 

[DeepWater]

The Catch 22 for the Atheist is that God has created an eternal atonement that excludes "seeing is believing".
And just like the Cartoon you posted, there will be no Atheists as soon as they die and realize that it was "all true"...., but, because God has created Salvation to only be offered >while< you are ALIVE... = thus the paradox and the horns of the dilemma for the unfortunate Atheist who rolled the dice, rejected Christ, died, and lost more then they ever imagined.
Its a harsh reality to die and then realize that the grave is not the end.
And how long will this harsh reality last?..... = For as long as God lives.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

The Catch 22 for the Atheist is that God has created an eternal atonement that excludes "seeing is believing".
And just like the Cartoon you posted, there will be no Atheists as soon as they die and realize that it was "all true"...., but, because God has created Salvation to only be offered >while< you are ALIVE... = thus the paradox and the horns of the dilemma for the unfortunate Atheist who rolled the dice, rejected Christ, died, and lost more then they ever imagined.
Its a harsh reality to die and then realize that the grave is not the end.
And how long will this harsh reality last?..... = For as long as God lives.

As long as it happens after I die, I really don't care.

 

[TillICollapse]

The Catch 22 for the Atheist is that God has created an eternal atonement that excludes "seeing is believing".
And just like the Cartoon you posted, there will be no Atheists as soon as they die and realize that it was "all true"...., but, because God has created Salvation to only be offered >while< you are ALIVE... = thus the paradox and the horns of the dilemma for the unfortunate Atheist who rolled the dice, rejected Christ, died, and lost more then they ever imagined.
Its a harsh reality to die and then realize that the grave is not the end.
And how long will this harsh reality last?..... = For as long as God lives.

So do you support the idea of people suffering for eternity ?

 

[DeepWater]

As long as it happens after I die, I really don't care.

The reason you dont care, is because you dont realize something.

You dont realize that you are a SPIRITUAL BEING, who is using an "earth suit", to experience the physical realm for about 65- 85 years, if you are lucky.
If you are not lucky, then you'll be posted as a photo in the Obituary page tomorrow.

See, what you think is that you are your body......But you are NOT your body, you are only USING IT, you are LIVING IN IT, and the part of you that is the REAL YOU< is the eternal part, and that part does not die, GB89.
Only your body dies......YOU< do not.
See, the GRAVE is the end of your body, but its not the end of YOU.
So, dont play with it.
Ok?
Come here, spit on Christians, have your laugh, but dont die a Christ Rejector.
Eternity is WAY too long to pay for that one simple bad bad choice.

 

[DeepWater]

So do you support the idea of people suffering for eternity ?

I support the reality of freedom of choice as defined by consequence.

The "suffering" you are speaking of, is self inflicted.
A person, in eternity, made a decision while on earth as to where they end up.
God does not choose your choice for you, so, if you or me or anyone decided that they have no use for God's provision, then they have made a choice to go where those that make that choice go.

See, its all about choice.
Its not about punishment.

Think of it like this..

You are standing in the middle of the middle of a road that is 100 yards long.
You look to your left and you see, the final destination of a Christ Rejector.
Its plain, you've been shown it.......and there it is.
You look to your right, and there is Jesus standing near the edge of the road, beckoning you, inviting you, to go just beyond where he is.
You decide to spit in his direction, flip him a bird, and walk to the left till the road drops into ..........

Who chose that?

I'll ask you again....WHO chose that?

Now you know.
Now you see.

 

[zippy2006]

It would seem the word atheism is just lost on the majority of this site

So let me explain atheism in one picture...

What's to explain?

Merriam-Webster- Atheist: a person who believes that God does not exist; one who believes that there is no deity​

The fact is, words have a meaning. You don't get to stipulate that meaning. It existed before you were born and it will exist after you die. Dictionaries, through a study of usage and intended meaning, describe what words mean.


"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

 

[Cearbhall]

What's to explain?

Merriam-Webster- Atheist: a person who believes that God does not exist; one who believes that there is no deity​

The fact is, words have a meaning. You don't get to stipulate that meaning. It existed before you were born and it will exist after you die. Dictionaries, through a study of usage and intended meaning, describe what words mean.


"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

That's exactly what he's saying, though. Some people on this website like to attach all kinds of meanings to it. A common one is the idea that we atheists do actually know that God exists (the idea that all humans souls know it because we're created by God in his image) and are just being stubborn like children who don't appreciate their parents. As you demonstrated, this doesn't fit the definition.

The comic explains that our position is based on a lack of evidence and can therefore change. If atheism were just a rebellious attitude, as some believe, it would not change when brought face-to-face with God.

 

[TillICollapse]

I support the reality of freedom of choice as defined by consequence.

The "suffering" you are speaking of, is self inflicted.
A person, in eternity, made a decision while on earth as to where they end up.
God does not choose your choice for you, so, if you or me or anyone decided that they have no use for God's provision, then they have made a choice to go where those that make that choice go.

See, its all about choice.
Its not about punishment.

Think of it like this..

You are standing in the middle of the middle of a road that is 100 yards long.
You look to your left and you see, the final destination of a Christ Rejector.
Its plain, you've been shown it.......and there it is.
You look to your right, and there is Jesus standing near the edge of the road, beckoning you, inviting you, to go just beyond where he is.
You decide to spit in his direction, flip him a bird, and walk to the left till the road drops into ..........

Who chose that?

I'll ask you again....WHO chose that?

Now you know.
Now you see.

So what do you believe is the "Christ Rejector" destination ? What do you think it looks like ?

 

[GrimKingGrim]

The Catch 22 for the Atheist is that God has created an eternal atonement that excludes "seeing is believing".
And just like the Cartoon you posted, there will be no Atheists as soon as they die and realize that it was "all true"...., but, because God has created Salvation to only be offered >while< you are ALIVE... = thus the paradox and the horns of the dilemma for the unfortunate Atheist who rolled the dice, rejected Christ, died, and lost more then they ever imagined.
Its a harsh reality to die and then realize that the grave is not the end.
And how long will this harsh reality last?..... = For as long as God lives.

How does God live if he is unable to die?