The Assyrian

[Biblewriter]

There's no historical or scriptural proof that every
last detail of Isaiah 10:5-34 wasn't fulfilled during
Sennacherib's invasion in Isaiah chapters 36-37, just
as there's no scripture which requires that the
Assyrian in Micah 5:5 and Isaiah 30:31 isn't the
Antichrist.

The falsehood of this statement has been repeatedly demonstrated. It is nothing short of stubbornness to continue to insist upon it.

 

[Dale]

Biblewriter,
"There is not even one scripture that even hints at an idea that "the Antichrist" is "the Assyrian." These are two completely different future individuals."

Your point would be clearer if you had said this at the beginning.


Biblewriter, what translation are you using?


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[Biblewriter]

Biblewriter,
"There is not even one scripture that even hints at an idea that "the Antichrist" is "the Assyrian." These are two completely different future individuals."

Your point would be clearer if you had said this at the beginning.


Biblewriter, what translation are you using?


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Thank you. You are entirely correct. In most of my writing I use the NKJV, but here I often use the KJV.

I normally use only these two because all other modern English translations rely extensively on ancient texts that were unquestionably corrupted. (the Alexandrianus and the Vaticanus - My spelling of these may be wrong, I cannot check here where I am in Brazil) I do not see how that could have happened except intentionally, so I see no reasonability whatsoever in relying upon anything in these texts, even if they may be much older that most others.

 

[juvenissun]

The Bible contains numerous prophecies about an individual it calls "The Assyrian." Yet there is not even one well known teacher on prophecy that seems to have even noticed him.

To begin a discussion of this individual, I would like to direct attention to Micah 5:5-6:

"And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders."

The preceeding verses plainly show that the man called "this man" is out Lord Jesus. But who is the one called "the Assyrian"? There can be no question whatsoever that this prophecy has not been fulfilled, for when the ancient Assyrian kings invaded Israel and Judah, there was no power at all to resist them, much less "seven shepherds, and eight principal men." And Israel has never invaded Assyria.

Biblewriter

For this one (Micah 5), I think it is fulfilling right now. The Assyrian indicates today's Hezbollah and Syria. I think what Micah said fits quite well with what has happened (and what will happen, such as that Israeli army advanced to the Syria-Iraq boarder, which is the "entrances" to the "land of Nimrod").

 

[Biblewriter]

For this one (Micah 5), I think it is fulfilling right now. The Assyrian indicates today's Hezbollah and Syria. I think what Micah said fits quite well with what has happened (and what will happen, such as that Israeli army advanced to the Syria-Iraq boarder, which is the "entrances" to the "land of Nimrod").

While ancient Assyria expanded to include essentially all of mordern Syria, Assyria itself, and thus "the land of Assyria," was the northern part of modern Iraq. Its capitol was Nineveh, which was located at the site of modern day Mosul, the center of the insurgency in Iraq.

So Assyria can not be the Palestenians.

Although we see modern day events building up toward the end time events prophesied in the Bible, those times have not started yet, so I reject the concept that things we see today are not fulfilments of Biblical prophecies.

 

[Dale]

Biblewriter,

What does "seven shepherds and eight principal men" mean? It could refer to a time when Israel is a Republic, with no single leader. Israel today has a President, a Prime Minister, a Supreme Court, and the executive authority is vested in the Cabinet. Israel also has two Chief Rabbis. Shepherds could refer to religious leaders. Israel has religious parties and some religious legislation. The description seven shepherds and eight principal men could describe a Cabinet or a leadership with the participation of religious parties in a State that is basically secular. That's a good description of the modern State of Israel for most of its existence.

Shimon Peres, a secular politician, is President of Israel at the moment, but his predecessor was President Katsav, of the Shas party, a religious party.

"Therefore will Israel be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor gives birth and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites."
--Micah 5:3 NIV

This sounds like a prophecy of the nation of Israel's return to the Holy Land in modern times, and it is from the crucial chapter, Micah Five.


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[Dale]

Biblewriter:
"While ancient Assyria expanded to include essentially all of mordern Syria, Assyria itself, and thus "the land of Assyria," was the northern part of modern Iraq. Its capitol was Nineveh, which was located at the site of modern day Mosul, the center of the insurgency in Iraq."



Yet present day Mosul is largely Kurdish. That makes it extremely unlikely, virtually inconceivable, that the Assyrian minority will again turn the ancient Assyrian homeland into a State.


Quote




The city of Mosul is predominantly Kurdish but has a substantial non-Kurdish minority. This minority consists of Iraqis sympathetic to the Saddam Hussein regime. The Iraqis as well as both Kurdish factions are Sunni Muslims. Although the Kurds and Iraqis share a common religion they have little else in common and are frequent adversaries. After the deployment of US forces in 2003, militant members of both the the PKU (Patriotic Union of Kurdistan) and the KDP (Kurdish Democratic Party) were suspected of reprisals against Iraqis in Mosul. With a rich ancient Assyrian history, Mosul is a historically important trade center linking Persia and the Mediterranean. In the 8th century, Mosul became the principal city of northern Mesopotamia under the early Muslim Abbasid dynasty. In the Ottoman period it was one of the provincial seats of administration. The largest city in Iraqi Kurdistan, Mosul is predominantly Kurdish with a sizeable Turkomen minority. The Yazidi sect is most numerous in the surrounding mountainous area. Mosul also has the largest number of Iraqi Christians of any Iraqi city, including Nestorians, Jacobites, Catholics and Chaldeans. There are churches in Mosul that are historically and culturally important for several of these Christian sects.

End Quote


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/mosul.htm


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[Biblewriter]

Biblewriter:
"While ancient Assyria expanded to include essentially all of mordern Syria, Assyria itself, and thus "the land of Assyria," was the northern part of modern Iraq. Its capitol was Nineveh, which was located at the site of modern day Mosul, the center of the insurgency in Iraq."



Yet present day Mosul is largely Kurdish. That makes it extremely unlikely, virtually inconceivable, that the Assyrian minority will again turn the ancient Assyrian homeland into a State.


Quote




The city of Mosul is predominantly Kurdish but has a substantial non-Kurdish minority. This minority consists of Iraqis sympathetic to the Saddam Hussein regime. The Iraqis as well as both Kurdish factions are Sunni Muslims. Although the Kurds and Iraqis share a common religion they have little else in common and are frequent adversaries. After the deployment of US forces in 2003, militant members of both the the PKU (Patriotic Union of Kurdistan) and the KDP (Kurdish Democratic Party) were suspected of reprisals against Iraqis in Mosul. With a rich ancient Assyrian history, Mosul is a historically important trade center linking Persia and the Mediterranean. In the 8th century, Mosul became the principal city of northern Mesopotamia under the early Muslim Abbasid dynasty. In the Ottoman period it was one of the provincial seats of administration. The largest city in Iraqi Kurdistan, Mosul is predominantly Kurdish with a sizeable Turkomen minority. The Yazidi sect is most numerous in the surrounding mountainous area. Mosul also has the largest number of Iraqi Christians of any Iraqi city, including Nestorians, Jacobites, Catholics and Chaldeans. There are churches in Mosul that are historically and culturally important for several of these Christian sects.

End Quote


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/mosul.htm


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When we are dealing with prophecies in the Bible, we are not dealing with what might happen, but with what will most certainly come to pass. It is not a matter of probability, but of the reliability of the word of God.

What could possibly have been less likely that that a virgin would conceive, and bring forth a son, and call his name Immanuel. But it happened exactly as God said.

SO if God said that someone he calls "the Assyrian" will come, that person will most certainly come.

And if he said that Israel would waste the land of Assyria with the sword, israel will most certainly waste the land of Assyria with the sword, unless that has already happened. And it does not take a very great knowledge of history to know that israel has never invaded Assyria. So it has to be future.

 

[Dale]

I'm not sure that we know that "the Assyrian" is one person, or one leader.

There is at least one other way prophecies about "the Assyrian" might have been fulfilled. The heartland of Assyria is near Mosul, in northern Iraq. It is possible that the Biblical prophet says "the Assyrian" instead of "the Iraqi" because Iraq isn't in their vocabulary. A ruler of Iraq would be "the Assyrian" because his territory includes the heartland of ancient Assyria.

How does this fit recent history? Iraq was one of the Arab countries which attacked Israel in 1948. While Iraq did not participate in the 1956 war, it was involved in the 1967 war. In 1967, Israel bombed the Iraqi air force and battled the Iraqi Army on the ground. Israel has been at war with both Egypt and Iraq twice, in 1948 and 1967. Iraq was a monarchy until 1958.

Do either of these wars constitute an invasion of Israel from Iraq? Iraqi troops invaded Israel in 1948 but not in 1967. There is one other occasion when Iraq was in conflict with modern Israel. As the 1991 Persian Gulf War loomed, Saddam Hussein fired Scud missiles into Israel. In modern terminology this is not an invasion, it is an attack from a distance. However, in the ancient world there was no way to inflict damage on an enemy from such a distance. To the ancient mind, to say that country A inflicted damage on the homeland of country B would sound like A invaded B. To the ancient mind, Iraq firing long range missiles into Israel would be much the same as an actual invasion of Israeli territory.

When the Assyrian invades our land
and marches through our fortresses,
we will raise against him seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men.
They will rule the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.
Micah 5: 5-6 NIV​

Could this apply to the First and Second Persian Gulf Wars? It would mean that the Scud missiles fired into Israel in 1991 constitute an invasion. Then Israel's powerful ally, the US, and its allies, invade Iraq, including the core of the ancient Assyrian Empire. Certainly, Iraq was patrolled with "drawn sword" in the aftermath of the Second Persian Gulf War.

Where does this leave us? If Biblical prophecies of "the Assyrian" were not fulfilled before the 20th Century, there is a distinct possibility that they have been fulfilled, starting in 1948. There is still a possibility that a future leader of Iraq will cause further problems for Israel, but it doesn't look like prophecy requires it.

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[Biblewriter]

I'm not sure that we know that "the Assyrian" is one person, or one leader.

There is at least one other way prophecies about "the Assyrian" might have been fulfilled. The heartland of Assyria is near Mosul, in northern Iraq. It is possible that the Biblical prophet says "the Assyrian" instead of "the Iraqi" because Iraq isn't in their vocabulary. A ruler of Iraq would be "the Assyrian" because his territory includes the heartland of ancient Assyria.

How does this fit recent history? Iraq was one of the Arab countries which attacked Israel in 1948. While Iraq did not participate in the 1956 war, it was involved in the 1967 war. In 1967, Israel bombed the Iraqi air force and battled the Iraqi Army on the ground. Israel has been at war with both Egypt and Iraq twice, in 1948 and 1967. Iraq was a monarchy until 1958.

Do either of these wars constitute an invasion of Israel from Iraq? Iraqi troops invaded Israel in 1948 but not in 1967. There is one other occasion when Iraq was in conflict with modern Israel. As the 1991 Persian Gulf War loomed, Saddam Hussein fired Scud missiles into Israel. In modern terminology this is not an invasion, it is an attack from a distance. However, in the ancient world there was no way to inflict damage on an enemy from such a distance. To the ancient mind, to say that country A inflicted damage on the homeland of country B would sound like A invaded B. To the ancient mind, Iraq firing long range missiles into Israel would be much the same as an actual invasion of Israeli territory.

When the Assyrian invades our land
and marches through our fortresses,
we will raise against him seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men.
They will rule the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword.
Micah 5: 5-6 NIV​

Could this apply to the First and Second Persian Gulf Wars? It would mean that the Scud missiles fired into Israel in 1991 constitute an invasion. Then Israel's powerful ally, the US, and its allies, invade Iraq, including the core of the ancient Assyrian Empire. Certainly, Iraq was patrolled with "drawn sword" in the aftermath of the Second Persian Gulf War.

Where does this leave us? If Biblical prophecies of "the Assyrian" were not fulfilled before the 20th Century, there is a distinct possibility that they have been fulfilled, starting in 1948. There is still a possibility that a future leader of Iraq will cause further problems for Israel, but it doesn't look like prophecy requires it.

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I agree that this sounds reasonable, but nothing in modern times has even come close to a fulfilment of Isaiah 10:28-32, where we read, "He is come to Aiath, he is passed to Migron; at Michmash he hath laid up his carriages: They are gone over the passage: they have taken up their lodging at Geba; Ramah is afraid; Gibeah of Saul is fled. Lift up thy voice, O daughter of Gallim: cause it to be heard unto Laish, O poor Anathoth. Madmenah is removed; the inhabitants of Gebim gather themselves to flee. As yet shall he remain at Nob that day: he shall shake his hand against the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem."

This is unquestionably not the path that Sennacherib followed, and it has not been followed by any other invading force even to this day.

Also, in Isaiah 14, immediately after prophesying the defeat of Sennacherib, the Lord tells Philistia not to rejoice at his fall, because one of his descendants will come again and slay them. (Yes, I know this is an interpretation, and not explicitly what it says, but read the passage for yourself and see if you do not agree that that is what it means.

"Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant. Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times." (Isaiah 14:29-31)

 

[Biblewriter]

The last few posts in this thread remind me of a principle I have often stressed in this forum

Bible prophecies are very definite, and will most surely come to pass exactly as God has said, so our job it to understand what God has said, not to make suppositons about what "Might" happen, or as to whether or not such-and-such a current "might" have been a fulfilment of such-and-such a prophecy.

All such suppositions are unprofitable and vain, and are wholly unworthy of anyone professing to be a teacher of the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Biblewriter]

In Micah 5:5, the Assyrian could refer to the
Antichrist, who will be defeated by Jesus at the
second coming (Isaiah 30:30-32) when the Antichrist
makes a final attack on Jerusalem right before the
second coming (Zechariah 14:2-4).

I did not notice the basis of this comment until today.

It is a very common notion that the Antichrist attacks Jerusalem, but there is no scriptural basis for this idea.

It is clear from many scriptures that Jerusalem will be attacked, But these same scriptures just as clearly say who leads this attack. That attacker is "the Assyrian." Not even one scripture identifies this attacker as either 'the Antichrist" or as "the beast."

One of the most common errors in interpreting Bible prophecy is to roll most or all of the various evil end-time individuals together into one and call this composite image "the Antichrist." But this only makes it impossible to understand what really happens.

There are five distinct evil individuals discussed in end-time Bible prophecy. These individuals are the end time leaders of Rome, Judah, Egypt, Assyria, and Russia.

The Roman leader is called 'the beast" and "the prince that shall come." I believe he is also the little horn that comes up on the Beast with ten horns. many think he is also "the Antichrist," but I believe this is an error.

The leader of Judah is called "the king." I believe he is also "the false prophet," "The man of sin," and "the Antichrist ."

The leader of Egypt is called "the king of the south."

The leader of Assyria is called "the Assyrian" and also called the king of the north." I believe he is also the little horn that comes up on the he-goat.'

The leader of Russia is called "Gog."

Other leaders are mentioned in a general way, but with little detail. These are "the kings of the east" and "the kinghs of the earth and of the whole world."

 

[&Abel]

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_ot/2esdr.htm

[1] Woe to you, Babylon and Asia! Woe to you, Egypt and Syria!
[2] Gird yourselves with sackcloth and haircloth, and wail for your children, and lament for them; for your destruction is at hand.
[3] The sword has been sent upon you, and who is there to turn it back?
[4] A fire has been sent upon you, and who is there to quench it?
[5] Calamities have been sent upon you, and who is there to drive them away?
[6] Can one drive off a hungry lion in the forest, or quench a fire in the stubble, when once it has begun to burn?
[7] Can one turn back an arrow shot by a strong archer?
[8] The Lord God sends calamities, and who will drive them away?
[9] Fire will go forth from his wrath, and who is there to quench it?
[10] He will flash lightning, and who will not be afraid? He will thunder, and who will not be terrified?
[11] The Lord will threaten, and who will not be utterly shattered at his presence?
[12] The earth and its foundations quake, the sea is churned up from the depths, and its waves and the fish also shall be troubled at the presence of the Lord and before the glory of his power.

 

[Biblewriter]

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/apocrypha_ot/2esdr.htm

[1] Woe to you, Babylon and Asia! Woe to you, Egypt and Syria!
[2] Gird yourselves with sackcloth and haircloth, and wail for your children, and lament for them; for your destruction is at hand.
[3] The sword has been sent upon you, and who is there to turn it back?
[4] A fire has been sent upon you, and who is there to quench it?
[5] Calamities have been sent upon you, and who is there to drive them away?
[6] Can one drive off a hungry lion in the forest, or quench a fire in the stubble, when once it has begun to burn?
[7] Can one turn back an arrow shot by a strong archer?
[8] The Lord God sends calamities, and who will drive them away?
[9] Fire will go forth from his wrath, and who is there to quench it?
[10] He will flash lightning, and who will not be afraid? He will thunder, and who will not be terrified?
[11] The Lord will threaten, and who will not be utterly shattered at his presence?
[12] The earth and its foundations quake, the sea is churned up from the depths, and its waves and the fish also shall be troubled at the presence of the Lord and before the glory of his power.

I do not understand why you posted this in this thread. If it was not a mistake, please explain your meaning.

 

[zeke37]

Biblewriter,

What does "seven shepherds and eight principal men" mean? It could refer to a time when Israel is a Republic, with no single leader. Israel today has a President, a Prime Minister, a Supreme Court, and the executive authority is vested in the Cabinet. Israel also has two Chief Rabbis. Shepherds could refer to religious leaders. Israel has religious parties and some religious legislation. The description seven shepherds and eight principal men could describe a Cabinet or a leadership with the participation of religious parties in a State that is basically secular. That's a good description of the modern State of Israel for most of its existence.

Shimon Peres, a secular politician, is President of Israel at the moment, but his predecessor was President Katsav, of the Shas party, a religious party.

"Therefore will Israel be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor gives birth and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites."
--Micah 5:3 NIV

This sounds like a prophecy of the nation of Israel's return to the Holy Land in modern times, and it is from the crucial chapter, Micah Five.


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hi...my opinion....

7 is a re-occuring biblical number that is oft used to connect God's very elect (the chosen remnant that will always exist and always has...) for they number 7000 according to Roman's 11:1-8

so the 7 are the election that be delivered up before "Death"/Satan for a witness against the beast, a testimony....

and the 8th is Christ Himself....leading them...

 

[Biblewriter]

I didn't really notice this until Zeke 37 responded to it.

Biblewriter,

What does "seven shepherds and eight principal men" mean? It could refer to a time when Israel is a Republic, with no single leader. Israel today has a President, a Prime Minister, a Supreme Court, and the executive authority is vested in the Cabinet. Israel also has two Chief Rabbis. Shepherds could refer to religious leaders. Israel has religious parties and some religious legislation. The description seven shepherds and eight principal men could describe a Cabinet or a leadership with the participation of religious parties in a State that is basically secular. That's a good description of the modern State of Israel for most of its existence.

Shimon Peres, a secular politician, is President of Israel at the moment, but his predecessor was President Katsav, of the Shas party, a religious party.

"Therefore will Israel be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor gives birth and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites."
--Micah 5:3 NIV

This sounds like a prophecy of the nation of Israel's return to the Holy Land in modern times, and it is from the crucial chapter, Micah Five.


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Responding just to the boldfaced part of this. Many scriptures speak of the end times return of Israel to her land. But they are very specific about this being a return of all Israel, nit just a part of it. This will not happen until Messiah comes. (see Isaiah 66) The current return is a return of only part of Israel, and is thus not the prophesied return.

 

[zeke37]

I didn't really notice this until Zeke 37 responded to it.



Responding just to the boldfaced part of this. Many scriptures speak of the end times return of Israel to her land. But they are very specific about this being a return of all Israel, nit just a part of it. This will not happen until Messiah comes. (see Isaiah 66) The current return is a return of only part of Israel, and is thus not the prophesied return.

Hi again/....

IMO, the current day nation of Israel is fulfilling Jerimiah 24's good and bad figs...Abraham's seed and Satan's seed.

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi again/....

IMO, the current day nation of Israel is fulfilling Jerimiah 24's good and bad figs...Abraham's seed and Satan's seed.

What is the basis of that opinion?

 

[zeke37]

both historical and biblical

The Jews gaining a foothold in the Holy Land in '48 or retaking the city in '67...being the final generation's beginning that Christ describes in the Olivette prophesy.


those that populate the area today, consist of both the good and bad figs.



there are some of Abraham's seed and thus even Adam's seed, currently their today...but there is anoter seed that is there aswell, that of Cain's lineage...as much as there are both physical and spiritual descendants of Israel, there is also both physical and spiritual descendants of the evil seed that the serpent sired....being the line that gives us the knowledge of good and evil, as seen in Cain's lineage in Gen. Some of this lineage pretended to be Jews and were even counted among them in the census of 1Chr2:55. They, those scribes became the religous authority which influenced the murder of Christ. also called in Acts the vagabon Jews....

 

[Biblewriter]

both historical and biblical

The Jews gaining a foothold in the Holy Land in '48 or retaking the city in '67...being the final generation's beginning that Christ describes in the Olivette prophesy.


those that populate the area today, consist of both the good and bad figs.



there are some of Abraham's seed and thus even Adam's seed, currently their today...but there is anoter seed that is there aswell, that of Cain's lineage...as much as there are both physical and spiritual descendants of Israel, there is also both physical and spiritual descendants of the evil seed that the serpent sired....being the line that gives us the knowledge of good and evil, as seen in Cain's lineage in Gen. Some of this lineage pretended to be Jews and were even counted among them in the census of 1Chr2:55. They, those scribes became the religous authority which influenced the murder of Christ. also called in Acts the vagabon Jews....

I asked because there is not even one prophecy that speaks of an end time return of Judah to her land.

A return of Judah to her land was obvious and necessary, because the end time scenario described in the prophetic scriptures opens with Judah in her land. So since she had been gone for nearly two thousand years, it was obvious that she would return. But this return itself is never mentioned. The reason for this is actually obvious when we consider the fact that her expulsion at the time of the diaspora was never mentioned in any Old Testament prophecy, and was not directly revealed in the Olivet discourse, although it was hinted at there.

Every end time prophecy about the return to the land speaks of Israel, not Judah, and they are very specific that this return will involve all Israel, not just part of it. According to Isaiah 66, it occurs after Messiah comes, not before.