The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

Der Alte · Feb 14, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I have no issues with God punishing every sinner, starting with believers. The body dies because of sin, including believers bodies. Romans 8:10
Otherwise God is a double dealer, treating the so called "unsaved" people's sins differently than believers who get excused and are off the hook

Didn't I read somewhere that God forgives sins when sinners repent? Unsaved people don't repent ergo they are not forgiven.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
But as previously noted sins are not counted against people. Sins are counted against devils, in everyone.

Largely incorrect. NOT everyone without repentance. God does not refrain from counting sins when the sinner remains unrepentant.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
You've already conceded the fact that Jesus and the Apostles addressed Satan and devils in mankind. A fact for which your positions ignore entirely. This in fact is the main weakness in many one sided theology positions.

ONLY when the text so specifies. If Satan is not specifically addressed then God is talking to the guilty person. Have you ever read Jeremiah 13:11-24. Satan is never mentioned in that passage.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
See last comment. You see only a person. IF you understood parables, which the rich man parable is, the identity of the non named rich man is obvious.

The STORY of the rich man and Lazarus is not identified as a parable, in the text, and does not have the structure of a parable. A parable explains or clarifies something unknown/not understood by comparison with something that is known/understood. This is likened to that. Do you know the specific commandment the rich man is depicted as not obeying? Even if by some wild stretch the story of rich man and Lazarus is a parable it must contain truth otherwise what is the purpose. Is Jesus just telling fictional stories then telling people to just go about their business.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Jesus advised us clearly in Mark 4:13 that there are 3 parties involved with every parable:
God
People
The devil or his own

Not relevant!

BelieveItOarKnot said:
In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man we have Abraham, a prophet who spoke God's Words, in this case post death, Lazarus and the rich man. Using the information that Jesus gave us which of the 3 would the rich man be? We also know from Jesus that evil spirits depart people and scripture that shows devils consider man "their house."

And your point is? What message should the Jews of Jesus' day have learned from this story? I haven't found a verse anywhere that tells people to not worry about sinning because it is not them it is actually Satan, sinning and only Satan will be punished.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I'd even go so far as to say people who don't accept the facts of this matter may not even be the person speaking. I have often seen people react violently to the real Gospel and it's definitely a DEMONIC reaction in them, not the person.

So in your religious belief people never actually sin themselves it is always Satan? Thus people are never punished only Satan.
Is Jeremiah 13-9 speaking about Satan?

Jeremiah 13:9-10

(9) Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.

(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

Jeremiah 13:11

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

Jeremiah 13:14

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Matthew 7:21-23

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [day of judgement] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by. Is Jesus talking to Satan in vs. 23.

Der Alte · Feb 14, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
I just read Gen 9:1-17 and the only thing it talks about is not eating meat that has its blood in it, other than that the rest are made up not from Gen9:1-17 . As for Dan 12:1-4 the word translated forever or eternal depending on what translation you read uses the Hebrew word Olam which doesn’t mean forever or eternal but “ the end is not seen” , the Greek is Aion which means age or eon both of which do not mean eternal. So for me I can’t buy what is being sold.

Incorrect. Both "olam" and "aionios" do in fact mean eternal., everlasting, etc. See my posts where I show this from scripture only.

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

So in other words, we have different sets of Greek scholars who oppose each other. Here's the problem. It appears that the meaning of the word was changed over the centuries with the influence of Latin thinking into the Church. Example: The word "gay" used to carry the connotation of happy or...

www.christianforums.com

Jeff Saunders · Feb 14, 2025

Der Alte said:
Incorrect. Both "olam" and "aionios" do in fact mean eternal., everlasting, etc. See my posts where I show this from scripture only.

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

So in other words, we have different sets of Greek scholars who oppose each other. Here's the problem. It appears that the meaning of the word was changed over the centuries with the influence of Latin thinking into the Church. Example: The word "gay" used to carry the connotation of happy or...

www.christianforums.com

. Use a literal translation like I do and the results will be different.

Der Alte · Feb 14, 2025

@Jeff Saunders "Use a literal translation like I do and the results will be different." For unknown reasons I cannot "quote" or "Reply" your post # 263
I see this a lot, people choose a Bible version which supports their assumptions/presuppositions. I OTOH use the Jewish Publication Society [JPS] English translation of the O.T. and he Eastern Greek Orthodox [EOB] translation of the N.T.. Both available free online.

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

Exodus 1 JPS Tanakh 1917

ETA: The JPS translates "olam" and "Ad" as eternal and the EOB translates aionios as eternal.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Feb 14, 2025

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Did the disciples fulfill the Great Commission? If yes, why did none of them, apart from James, speak of Gehenna? Listen, if Jesus gave them a command to make disciples… teaching them to observe everything He taught, then there are only two conclusions I can see available concerning their obedience or lack there of:
1). They chose to disobey Him and not speak concerning this “eternal place of punishment“ because their epistles say nothing of Gehenna.
2). They did teach what Jesus taught them and Gehenna was not a part of His instructions.
***My thought is they understood this teaching of Gehenna was for the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”, to whom Jesus says he specifically came.
”He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭15‬:‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
bible.com
Click to expand...

Der Alte: So the Jews have different rules than non-Jews?

My reply: No, not a different set of rules … but if I may quote you “All scripture is relevant to something at some time but all scripture is NOT relevant to every circumstance.” I gave you my interpretation of a passage you quoted, actually only partially quoted from a contextual stand point. I pointed out some issues I had with your use or application of this passage. You simply choose to ignore them rather than address the points I made and develop your own thoughts.

Der Alte: That some of the apostles did not mention gehenna or hades to me is irrelevant Jesus did, that is enough for me.

My reply: Not some but none of the Apostles my friend, NONE! That is what is known as an argument of silence. Sometimes what you DO NOT say, as the case here, speaks louder than what you DO say. Oh it is relevant my brother, very relevant. So you are one who believes “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God …” when it suits your position! You know, like using the Apostle Paul to support your view of Aion/Aionios. But when you find yourself unable to supply a reasonable answer, you fall back on the old slogan, “Jesus said it, so I believe it and that settles it? Interesting. Mathew 15:24 ”He answered, “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” If I’m not mistaken those words came from the lips of Jesus too! So, if you have a problem with this declaration and its implications concerning His visitation. Take it up with Him.
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭15‬:‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” | English Standard Version Revision 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

bible.com

Der Alte: You can twist the scripture however you choose.

My reply: No twisting being performed here my friend. Perhaps you might point it out for me?

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Let’s go ahead and look at your first passage in Mathew. But let’s go back to verse 21 and through 26 for full context (see below). I just want to make a few observations that perhaps you may wish to make comment.

”“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭21‬-‭26‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 5:21-26 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to | English Standard Version 2016 (
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to
bible.com
Interesting scale of justice Jesus uses here in verses 21&22. The actual act of murder warrants being liable to judgement … then Jesus equates anger to the same judgement (council). Note: this is not the GWT Judgement …
2). Then, speaking to your brother/sister with contempt (Raka), will earn you a seat at court before the Sanhedrin.
Click to expand...

What is the prescribed punishment for murder under the law?

My reply: lol … Just telling you what Jesus said (or didn’t say), to whom He was speaking and speaking about (Jewish brothers/sisters), how He built upon what He previously said to them (remember to ask, what’s the “therefore” there for?) and how it applied to worship, relationships and discipline. Again, maybe you might give me your own interpretation? Develop your own thoughts. Come to your own conclusions.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
3). Now, dare you call your brother a fool and you will face the fire of Gehenna! I believe this is what James had in mind when he used Gehenna in his epistle.

Question: Why does Jesus state you go to Gehenna for just calling “Your Brother” a fool but the actual act of murder only gets you before the general council? Weird scale of justice don’t you think?

Der Alte: See previous response.

My reply: Which amounts to nothing more than evasive tactics like asking questions before you answer those asked already.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Now Jesus tells them in verses 23-26, based on what I just told you (therefore), if you go to worship knowing you are in the hot seat with a brother … go make it right! Why? Their adversary (hey “Believeitornot”, perhaps I’m starting to see what you have been speaking about) may take you to court, and if found guilty, you will go to prison and NOT GET OUT until your debt has been completely paid. Right down to the last penny!

You might try reading that passage again "in context."

My reply: You provide plenty of Scripture passages to support your view but almost NEVER provide surrounding context and how it applies to your position. Please, by all means, elaborate on the context of the passage in Mathew you quoted to support your position and correct my interpretation.

Der Alte: Is anyone in gehenna or hades earning any pennies?

My reply: Very informative response …

1 Timothy 6:7
(7) For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Question: Are you one who believes that Gehenna is the LOF? If you are, according to Jesus, there is indeed a limit to the amount of time spent in there because they do eventually get out!
I dunno, perhaps would lIke to offer your interpretation of Mathew 21-26?

blessings

I don't know and I don't care.

My reply: This is most obvious …

Jeff Saunders · Feb 14, 2025

Der Alte said:
@Jeff Saunders "Use a literal translation like I do and the results will be different." For unknown reasons I cannot "quote" or "Reply" your post # 263
I see this a lot, people choose a Bible version which supports their assumptions/presuppositions. I OTOH use the Jewish Publication Society [JPS] English translation of the O.T. and he Eastern Greek Orthodox [EOB] translation of the N.T.. Both available free online.

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

Exodus 1 JPS Tanakh 1917

ETA: The JPS translates "olam" and "Ad" as eternal and the EOB translates aionios as eternal.

So the translations that are your choice are the true and those that are different are false, how are you not doing the same thing that you are accusing others of , using a translation that supports your presumptions?

BelieveItOarKnot · Feb 15, 2025

Der Alte said:
Didn't I read somewhere that God forgives sins when sinners repent? Unsaved people don't repent ergo they are not forgiven.

People are forgiven, not counting. Remember?

Devils are never forgiven. All have sin, Romans 3:9 and sin is of the devil, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, etc

Der Alte said:
Largely incorrect. NOT everyone without repentance. God does not refrain from counting sins when the sinner remains unrepentant.

Devils never repent. See how this works yet? Your positions totally ignore the other parties, our adversary and his own

Der Alte said:
ONLY when the text so specifies. If Satan is not specifically addressed then God is talking to the guilty person. Have you ever read Jeremiah 13:11-24. Satan is never mentioned in that passage.

Satan is involved with every sin in mankind

Even in the mere facts of internal temptations, essentially evil thoughts that defile us, Mark 7:21-23, Satan is involved

Do you want to claim immunity from internal temptations from our adversary, the devil? Do you find no cause to internally resist our adversary? I'd suggest the resistance is fundamental to our faith

Der Alte said:
The STORY of the rich man and Lazarus is not identified as a parable,

We'll disagree. Go read the preceeding indentifying that it's a parable. All parables are essentially the same as to the parties in the parable: God, people and DEVILS

Every parable therefore can be, pertaining to essentials, one parable. And any dissection of same that doesn't apply said parables to every person (inclusive of the tempter within) or any dissection that excludes the devil or his own is categorically false

Der Alte said:
in the text, and does not have the structure of a parable. A parable explains or clarifies something unknown/not understood by comparison with something that is known/understood. This is likened to that. Do you know the specific commandment the rich man is depicted as not obeying? Even if by some wild stretch the story of rich man and Lazarus is a parable it must contain truth otherwise what is the purpose. Is Jesus just telling fictional stories then telling people to just go about their business.

Not relevant!

It is undoubtedly a parable

Your positions on parables in general as well as your theology positions will remain at odds with Jesus' descriptions in Mark 4:13-15

There's simply a massive hole in your theories that continues to quite willfully ignore the other parties

Jesus told us our quest is to turn people from SATAN

Paul told us that all people are bound to the spirit of disobedience that blinds minds

Your theories account for none of this and you merely rail against blind captives of the devil's while ignoring the FACT OF THEM

Der Alte said:
And your point is? What message should the Jews of Jesus' day have learned from this story? I haven't found a verse anywhere that tells people to not worry about sinning because it is not them it is actually Satan, sinning and only Satan will be punished.

I've never made such a claim. We live our lives in resistance to our enemy, lest we be a blind slave. But we are NEVER immune or sinless because of the other party who will pay a price of eternity in the LoF

Der Alte said:
When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by. Is Jesus talking to Satan in vs. 23.

Just so you know some Christian Universalist positions accept eternal hell, no getting out, for the devil and his messengers.

Der Alte said:
Didn't I read somewhere that God forgives sins when sinners repent? Unsaved people don't repent ergo they are not forgiven.

Largely incorrect. NOT everyone without repentance. God does not refrain from counting sins when the sinner remains unrepentant.

ONLY when the text so specifies. If Satan is not specifically addressed then God is talking to the guilty person. Have you ever read Jeremiah 13:11-24. Satan is never mentioned in that passage.

The STORY of the rich man and Lazarus is not identified as a parable, in the text, and does not have the structure of a parable. A parable explains or clarifies something unknown/not understood by comparison with something that is known/understood. This is likened to that. Do you know the specific commandment the rich man is depicted as not obeying? Even if by some wild stretch the story of rich man and Lazarus is a parable it must contain truth otherwise what is the purpose. Is Jesus just telling fictional stories then telling people to just go about their business.

Not relevant!

And your point is? What message should the Jews of Jesus' day have learned from this story? I haven't found a verse anywhere that tells people to not worry about sinning because it is not them it is actually Satan, sinning and only Satan will be punished.

So in your religious belief people never actually sin themselves it is always Satan? Thus people are never punished only Satan.
Is Jeremiah 13-9 speaking about Satan?

Jeremiah 13:9-10
(9) Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [day of judgement] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
When Jesus says "never" He does not mean some day by and by. Is Jesus talking to Satan in vs. 23.

It's disinteresting to me to engage with positions that refuse to factor in our enemy, the devil and his own. Your positions have nearly zero account for this fact, and probably never will.

I consider such positions half truths that end up blaming and accusing only people, which is where you're at. In addition to excusing yourself. Of course

I've never advocated being a slave of the devil but the fight exists for all of us in this present life and it's a real internal fight and none of us are ever sinless because of that fight. Few can be honest about it. Very few

And just an fyi, some Christian Universalist positions do fully accept an eternal LoF with no getting out, for the devil and his own, which is where I'm at. I disagree with universalists that promote the temporary torture of man or devil

Der Alte · Feb 15, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
So the translations that are your choice are the true and those that are different are false, how are you not doing the same thing that you are accusing others of , using a translation that supports your presumptions?

The BIG difference is the two translations I favor were translated by scholars who were native speakers of Hebrew JPS and Greek EOB. And FYI both are available free online . And I have yet to see any non-scholar here or learned scholar elsewhere prove them incorrect. And FYI the Hebrew JPS translates olam and ad as eternal, everlasting etc. And the Eastern Orthodox church EOB translates aionios and aion as eternal and eternity. I have done my own study, using scripture only, on both Hebrew olam/ad as eternal and Greek aionios is eternal. Examples below.

There are 47 more vss. in my Hebrew study
Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [olam עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

There are 18 more vss. in my Greek study.
John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [=] eternal [aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [=] everlasting [aionios] life.

Der Alte · Feb 15, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
People are forgiven, not counting. Remember?

Some people are forgiven.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Devils are never forgiven. All have sin, Romans 3:9 and sin is of the devil, Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, etc

That is a given. I'm not interested in the devil and his demonic minions.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Devils never repent. See how this works yet? Your positions totally ignore the other parties, our adversary and his own

I don't see any relevance to what I post.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Satan is involved with every sin in mankind

Even in the mere facts of internal temptations, essentially evil thoughts that defile us, Mark 7:21-23, Satan is involved

Do you want to claim immunity from internal temptations from our adversary, the devil? Do you find no cause to internally resist our adversary? I'd suggest the resistance is fundamental to our faith

We'll disagree. Go read the preceeding indentifying that it's a parable. All parables are essentially the same as to the parties in the parable: God, people and DEVILS

Not relevant to anything I have posted. Saying the devil made me do it does not pardon anyone.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Every parable therefore can be, pertaining to essentials, one parable. And any dissection of same that doesn't apply said parables to every person (inclusive of the tempter within) or any dissection that excludes the devil or his own is categorically false

It is undoubtedly a parable

Your positions on parables in general as well as your theology positions will remain at odds with Jesus' descriptions in Mark 4:13-15

The word parable is derived from the Greek word parabolo, to throw/cast beside. There is no parabolo in the story of Lazarus and the rich man i.e. this is likened to that. It may be one of the other 112 figures of speech in the Bible but it ain't a parable.

BelieveItOarKnot said:
There's simply a massive hole in your theories that continues to quite willfully ignore the other parties

Incorrect. Saying the devil made me do it does not get anyone off the hook

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Jesus told us our quest is to turn people from SATAN

Paul told us that all people are bound to the spirit of disobedience that blinds minds

Your theories account for none of this and you merely rail against blind captives of the devil's while ignoring the FACT OF THEM

None of this absolves a human being from their sins which they not the devil commit

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I've never made such a claim. We live our lives in resistance to our enemy, lest we be a blind slave. But we are NEVER immune or sinless because of the other party who will pay a price of eternity in the LoF

Just so you know some Christian Universalist positions accept eternal hell, no getting out, for the devil and his messengers.

Have you read Luke 16:22-26

Luke 16:22-26

(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. [the rich man does not get out of hell]

BelieveItOarKnot said:
It's disinteresting to me to engage with positions that refuse to factor in our enemy, the devil and his own. Your positions have nearly zero account for this fact, and probably never will.

I consider such positions half truths that end up blaming and accusing only people, which is where you're at. In addition to excusing yourself. Of course

I've never advocated being a slave of the devil but the fight exists for all of us in this present life and it's a real internal fight and none of us are ever sinless because of that fight. Few can be honest about it. Very few

And just an fyi, some Christian Universalist positions do fully accept an eternal LoF with no getting out, for the devil and his own, which is where I'm at. I disagree with universalists that promote the temporary torture of man or devil

Blaming Satan does not save anyone from the punishment for their own sins.

Matthew 7:21-23

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(22) Many [NOT a few] will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

When Jesus say "never" He does not mean some day by and by.

Jeff Saunders · Feb 15, 2025

Der Alte said:
The BIG difference is the two translations I favor were translated by scholars who were native speakers of Hebrew JPS and Greek EOB. And FYI both are available free online . And I have yet to see any non-scholar here or learned scholar elsewhere prove them incorrect. And FYI the Hebrew JPS translates olam and ad as eternal, everlasting etc. And the Eastern Orthodox church EOB translates aionios and aion as eternal and eternity. I have done my own study, using scripture only, on both Hebrew olam/ad as eternal and Greek aionios is eternal. Examples below.

There are 47 more vss. in my Hebrew study
Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [olam עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

There are 18 more vss. in my Greek study.
John 3:15-16
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [=] eternal [aionios] life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [=] everlasting [aionios] life.

That’s interesting because I have done my own study and it doesn’t agree with yours , so when we get to the next age we will see what we got correct and what we did not.

Der Alte · Feb 15, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
That’s interesting because I have done my own study and it doesn’t agree with yours , so when we get to the next age we will see what we got correct and what we did not.

You have not provided your study of the Greek words aionios and aion and the Hebrew words olam and ad as I have. AND I have also provided definitions from Greek and Hebrew concordances and grammars which I have in my, such as it is, library. I studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level about 4 decades ago.

Der Alte · Feb 15, 2025

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Der Alte: So the Jews have different rules than non-Jews?

My reply: No, not a different set of rules … but if I may quote you “All scripture is relevant to something at some time but all scripture is NOT relevant to every circumstance.” I gave you my interpretation of a passage you quoted, actually only partially quoted from a contextual stand point. I pointed out some issues I had with your use or application of this passage. You simply choose to ignore them rather than address the points I made and develop your own thoughts.

Der Alte: That some of the apostles did not mention gehenna or hades to me is irrelevant Jesus did, that is enough for me.

My reply: Not some but none of the Apostles my friend, NONE! That is what is known as an argument of silence. Sometimes what you DO NOT say, as the case here, speaks louder than what you DO say. Oh it is relevant my brother, very relevant. So you are one who believes “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God …” when it suits your position! You know, like using the Apostle Paul to support your view of Aion/Aionios. But when you find yourself unable to supply a reasonable answer, you fall back on the old slogan, “Jesus said it, so I believe it and that settles it? Interesting. Mathew 15:24 ”He answered, “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” If I’m not mistaken those words came from the lips of Jesus too! So, if you have a problem with this declaration and its implications concerning His visitation. Take it up with Him.
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭15‬:‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” | English Standard Version Revision 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

bible.com

Der Alte: You can twist the scripture however you choose.

My reply: No twisting being performed here my friend. Perhaps you might point it out for me?

What is the prescribed punishment for murder under the law?

My reply: lol … Just telling you what Jesus said (or didn’t say), to whom He was speaking and speaking about (Jewish brothers/sisters), how He built upon what He previously said to them (remember to ask, what’s the “therefore” there for?) and how it applied to worship, relationships and discipline. Again, maybe you might give me your own interpretation? Develop your own thoughts. Come to your own conclusions.

Der Alte: See previous response.

My reply: Which amounts to nothing more than evasive tactics like asking questions before you answer those asked already.

You might try reading that passage again "in context."

My reply: You provide plenty of Scripture passages to support your view but almost NEVER provide surrounding context and how it applies to your position. Please, by all means, elaborate on the context of the passage in Mathew you quoted to support your position and correct my interpretation.

Der Alte: Is anyone in gehenna or hades earning any pennies?

My reply: Very informative response …

1 Timothy 6:7
(7) For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

I don't know and I don't care.

My reply: This is most obvious …

If you expect a reasoned response from me, I expect a reasoned post from you wherein you quote my entire post in-context. NOT bits and pieces.
I don't recall any post where I did NOT provide the context. IIRC you mentioned one verse which you think I should have included but did not explain how you considered that as negating my response. Which I am certain it did not, just argument for argument's sake. Do you think Mathew 15:24 means the words of Jesus do not apply to gentiles?

Free2bHeretical4Him! · Feb 15, 2025

Der Alte said:
If you expect a reasoned response from me, I expect a reasoned post from you wherein you quote my entire post in-context. NOT bits and pieces.

Very well my friend. Below is my quote of what you said along with the context you quoted from me, in which you applied it. Please tell me what you meant by what I quoted, and how you were applying it to what I said in the post of mine. Also, out of everything I wrote in that post you quoted of mine, that was your only reply? You have nothing to say about anything else? Really?

Here you go …

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
1). My friend, it is relevant because ALL Scripture is inspired by God. ALL of it comes from Jesus, not just His recorded words. ALL of it. Paul wrote 1/2 the New Testament under the divine inspiration of The Holy Spirt. Again, not one time, not once did Paul mention hell. Paul received the Gospel directly from the Lord. Yes? Yet he could boldly make the statement below. How is it he could make that declaration if Jesus spoke to him about the necessity of preaching hell?

Incorrect! All scripture is relevant to something at some time but all scripture is NOT relevant to every circumstance. The scripture I referred to was not relevant to the point in question at that instant. And you haven't shown the relevance

Der Alte said:
I don't recall any post where I did NOT provide the context. IIRC you mentioned one verse which you think I should have included but did not explain how you considered that as negating my response. Which I am certain it did not, just argument for argument's sake.

Why don’t you go back and reread my post. Actually consider it with an open mind. I provided the additional Scripture you purposely omitted, adding the full context of what Jesus said. Not for arguments sake but for context:
1). Jesus was speaking about the consequences of sin. In this case murder warranted standing before the court.
2). Then anger and insult warrants standing before the Council
3). Call your brother a fool and you end up in Gehenna???
4). I pointed out the context is speaking about the relationship between those involved (brother/sister).
5). I pointed out Jesus applied what he just said to its application in worship, relationships and discipline.
6). I pointed out that Jesus used an analogy (not literal pennies, good grief) to ascribe the duration of the time they serve because they didn’t make it right.
7). Then! I gave my conclusion concerning ALL the words Jesus spoke that related to Gehenna and concluded this was specifically a Jewish only application.

Note: I based my conclusion on my observations outlined above; plus two very important points, both of which support my position that Jesus only intended the teaching concerning Gehenna was for the Jews:

1). Jesus said … ”He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”“ ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭15‬:‭24‬ ‭ESV‬‬. Now, didn’t you say something along the lines of, Jesus spoke of it, that’s good enough for me, when you stated you didn’t care if the other NT writers never spoke about Gehenna? Well? How do you interpret what He said in Mathew 15:24? I gave you my explanation and interpretation of Mathew 5: 21-26 and why I believe what He said in Mathew 15:24 “ONLY” applied to the Jews.

2). I pointed out the FACT that NONE of the Disciple/Apostles ever mentioned Gehenna ONCE. NOT ONCE! I believe ALL Scripture is inspired by God … The words Jesus speaks are not his own but the words He hears of the Father, thus they are the inspired words of God. Peter states the same thing about the inspiration of Scripture AND He equates the words of the Apostle Paul to be Scripture. There are many things that the Apostle Paul, the other Apostles and NT writers reinforce of which Jesus spoke. Gehenna is NOT one of them. I think all the above is a reasonably solid argument for my interpretation.

You accuse me of cherry picking? Right … Especially in light of what I just outlined above and pointed out how you chose to omit verses 21, 25&26. You accuse me of quoting Scripture just to make an argument? I think I just proved otherwise.

Why don’t you do the same? Take this complete passage from Mathew 5:21-26 and develop your own thoughts and come to your own conclusion while establishing your own counterpoint interpretation to mine? I would love to see it …

Perhaps you will develop your own thoughts, outline for me your interpretation and come to your own conclusion on the Jeremiah passage you are so fond of quoting? You know the one I’m talking about right? Only please, at least read the whole chapter and incorporate “everything” that is relevant to what you believe is being communicated to God’s people through the prophet Jeremiah and how you incorporate this on your position. If you do this I promise I will reciprocate with my own counterpoint interpretation.

Der Alte said:
Do you think Mathew 15:24 means the words of Jesus do not apply to gentiles?

Again, Mathew 15:24 comes from the lips of Jesus, not mine. What do you think He meant by that statement? I proposed that only those things which are not reinforced by the other inspired writers of Scripture are most likely Jewish specific, or the text itself specifically states this to be the case.

blessings

BelieveItOarKnot · Feb 16, 2025

Der Alte said:
Some people are forgiven.

Does God in Christ double deal on sin? Doesn't count believers, even though we're no better, Romans 3:9, but counts against those blinded in mind by the devil? 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

Der Alte said:
That is a given. I'm not interested in the devil and his demonic minions.

Yes, one of the biggest gaps in your positions. Your version misses the parties altogether, and as such I'd question the source of such gaps

Der Alte said:
The word parable is derived from the Greek word parabolo, to throw/cast beside. There is no parabolo in the story of Lazarus and the rich man i.e. this is likened to that. It may be one of the other 112 figures of speech in the Bible but it ain't a parable.

Every Word of God is a parable because every Word of God applies to everyone, Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4 and Deut. 8:3 and Jesus said His Word is a parable:

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Der Alte said:
Incorrect. Saying the devil made me do it does not get anyone off the hook

That's oddly what you're hearing but I've never said that.

So, to be clear, the DEVIL DOES IT

As a simple example, when Satan spoke through Peter's lips, was it Peter speaking or was it Satan?

I'd suggest it was Satan speaking, unless of course you want to make Peter Satan.

Der Alte said:
None of this absolves a human being from their sins which they not the devil commit

Unlimited atonement for people, 2 Cor. 5:19

No atonement for devils.

Der Alte said:
Blaming Satan does not save anyone from the punishment for their own sins.

Well, to be consistent you should do the same for your own sins

Jeff Saunders · Feb 16, 2025

Der Alte said:
You have not provided your study of the Greek words aionios and aion and the Hebrew words olam and ad as I have. AND I have also provided definitions from Greek and Hebrew concordances and grammars which I have in my, such as it is, library. I studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level about 4 decades ago.

I went back in older posts on this forum and the subject of the definition of these words has been debated many times and no matter what evidence people give you refuse to acknowledge anything that goes against your presuppositions, so I am not going to take the time to repost the same thing that has been done before. It is evident that you have no intention to either study what others believe and why they believe , anything that goes against your tradition is avoided at all costs , is it because the presumption of tradition is fragile and must be protected at all costs?

Der Alte · Feb 16, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
I went back in older posts on this forum and the subject of the definition of these words has been debated many times and no matter what evidence people give you refuse to acknowledge anything that goes against your presuppositions, so I am not going to take the time to repost the same thing that has been done before. It is evident that you have no intention to either study what others believe and why they believe , anything that goes against your tradition is avoided at all costs , is it because the presumption of tradition is fragile and must be protected at all costs?

I have to say a plethora of nonsense. While I may have had some presuppositions when I joined this forum more than 2 decades ago BUT nothing I posted concerning olam and ad and aionios and aion is presupposition. Not only are my conclusions supported by the text in English but they are also supported by the Jewish Publication Society translation of the O.T. and the Eastern Greek orthodox translation of the N.T. both of which I have linked to but those with UR assumptions/presuppositions argue against them because their favorite UR "scholars," such as Illaria Ramelli, tells them different. And OBTW I proved her wrong in this forum a few years ago. See link

Would God Really Send Someone to Hell?

We are not to conform to the world’s standards. Whassat got to do with the accuracy of a translation? The world says 2+2=4, should we reject that fo the sake of nonconformity?

www.christianforums.com

Here are links to my my studies on olam and aionios. Prove me wrong.
Olam

The Hebrew word עולם/olam means eternal, everlasting, forever etc.

In the following 48 vss. the Hebrew word "olam/עולם" is defined within the text as eternal/everlasting/forever. The "defining" words are bolded. No quotes from "scholars" or "experts," scripture only. So simple a child can understand. [1] Ecclesiastes 3:14 (14) I know that, whatsoever God...

www.christianforums.com

Aionios

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

So in other words, we have different sets of Greek scholars who oppose each other. Here's the problem. It appears that the meaning of the word was changed over the centuries with the influence of Latin thinking into the Church. Example: The word "gay" used to carry the connotation of happy or...

www.christianforums.com

Der Alte · Feb 16, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
So the translations that are your choice are the true and those that are different are false, how are you not doing the same thing that you are accusing others of , using a translation that supports your presumptions?

Incorrect! I don't just say they are false I show how they are. Again, incorrect you in fact do choose a translation simply because the translator(s) share your beliefs, and it fits your assumptions and presuppositions. As I have stated The JPS was translated by native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars and the EOB was translated by native Greek speaking scholars. My independent study of olam and ad and aionios and aion is supported by the JPS and EOB. Studies which OBTW has never been disproven.
Here is a sample from each study feel free to prove me wrong.
Ecclesiastes 3:14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [olam/עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Isaiah 51:6
Isaiah 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but My salvation shall be forever, [עולם] and My favour shall not be abolished.
John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.[/indent]
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.
In this verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.,” By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

Der Alte · Feb 16, 2025

Jeff Saunders said:
...I went back in older posts on this forum and the subject of the definition of these words has been debated many times and no matter what evidence people give you refuse to acknowledge anything that goes against your presuppositions, so I am not going to take the time to repost the same thing that has been done before. It is evident that you have no intention to either study what others believe and why they believe , anything that goes against your tradition is avoided at all costs , is it because the presumption of tradition is fragile and must be protected at all costs?

I am retired X3, one might say this is my job. As I have said more than once I have been active at this forum for more than 20 years. I have read virtually every argument, very likely more than once. The accusations you make against me here can be redirected at you.

"anything that goes against your tradition is avoided at all costs , is it because the presumption of tradition is fragile and must be protected at all costs?" "the subject of the definition of these words [aionios/olam] has been debated many times and no matter what evidence people give you refuse to acknowledge anything that goes against your presuppositions."

I reviewed every occurrence of both words hoping that would show me the meaning of the words. I found there were some occurrences where the words were defined in the sentence where they were used. My studies of the words have never been addressed in a meaningful way. The most frequent attempted rebuttal is, "Professor/scholar 'X' said aionios/olam never means eternal."
Here is one of my favorites.

John 3:16

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.

What is your opinion, does this vs. define the meaning of "aionios?" I believe that it does. aionios equals should not perish.

Aaron112 · Feb 16, 2025

The enemy of Jesus offers anything/ incentives/ "don't worry about your sin" / "feelings" / and more beyond measuring
to get lost souls to believe in ur so that they don't seek Jesus Himself to be healed or forgiven.

The enemy of Jesus worldwide has billions of followers, both willing and unwitting, so there is no shortage of those enemies of Jesus to promote ur.

Der Alte · Feb 17, 2025

Aaron112 said:
The enemy of Jesus offers anything/ incentives/ "don't worry about your sin" / "feelings" / and more beyond measuring
to get lost souls to believe in ur so that they don't seek Jesus Himself to be healed or forgiven.

The enemy of Jesus worldwide has billions of followers, both willing and unwitting, so there is no shortage of those enemies of Jesus to promote ur.

Like Sonny Bono said, "That ain't me, babe."

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

I’m a dirt nap and resurrection from glory!

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now​

Matthew 5:21-26 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to | English Standard Version 2016 (​

Well-Known Member

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

I’m a dirt nap and resurrection from glory!

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

Matthew 5:21-26 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to | English Standard Version 2016 (