the Apostle Paul kept the Torah!

[Frogster]

What is so hard to understand, that the common Jews of the day would have been flipping out on Peter, for having been in the company of gentiles? It has nothing to do with food. Just his BEING THERE was enough to cause the Jews who kept the oral law to begin accusing him.

because we all know the flipping was about the food..it says eat, not bird watching in gal 2:12, ant it says ate in acts 11:3, food was an issue, just like today, i have been called a sinner here for eating a shrimp, by a friend in the MJ circle here on the forum.

 

[weathered]

Thanks, but I read it differently I see Paul as approving of eating meat sacrificed to idols, because idols, to him, have no power, and so the heathen are sacrificing to nothing. For Paul, as long as you don't cause a weaker brother to stumble, you can freely eat those meats. That's what I understand Paul to say.

Maybe thats what you want to see. Maybe you want to see him as a false prophet, or just see him as wrong, i don't know. But his rebuke of eating meat offered to idols is plain to see.

 

[weathered]

1Co 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Co 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

 

[weathered]

1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

 

[ananda]

1Co 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Co 10:22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one ... Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. (1Cor 8)

Whatsoever is sold in the meat market, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake ... If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake ... why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience? 1Cor 10:25-29

 

[weathered]

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one ... Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. (1Cor 8)

Whatsoever is sold in the meat market, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake ... If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake ... why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience? 1Cor 10:25-29

You may be hard of hearing brother. You may be hearing what you want to hear.

 

[weathered]

However we are all hard of hearing, we must seek the truth with a sincere heart. Its wrong to call paul a false prophet or teach against him. Its never too late to say i was wrong and talk to God about it, we all must do this, i do it all the time.

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[weathered]

Paul himself persecuted the church and God did mighty things through him after he repented. Gods grace is that awsome

 

[Frogster]

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one ... Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. (1Cor 8)

Whatsoever is sold in the meat market, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake ... If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake ... why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience? 1Cor 10:25-29

please, he was just saying they who knew better, they who have the knowledge if u read it in 1 cor 8, but yeah, we know food does not bring to god, or pull from god in 8;8, but soemtimes don't stumble the weak if there is a conscience issue..

other than that, eat the food, it just passes through a man, like mark 7 says..


u omit that in 1 cor 10, he also stressed not to worship the demoms as per the union cult practices, Paul was teaching things..dojn't woprship demoms, but the food aint squat in and of itself.



dude...

 

[Fireinfolding]

I think if we just ended the life of all the pigs in the world there would be no more discusions like these

And no more bacon... (I know unthinkable...)

But Jesus did speak of casting your pearls before swine

And of swallowing camels (unclean animals)

So maybe we ought to rethink this on another level

 

[Frogster]

Yes, man's traditions/Oral Law (not YHWH's Torah Law) prohibited Israelites from associated with Gentiles.

no way, gentiles had to be defiled, they went ye not to temple to be undefiled.

 

[Frogster]

Paul never said that all things were food. You have just made a mistake in the conclusion you've arrived to. There are many, many Christians who take a snip of scripture here, and a snip there- and they teach others to view the law of God in ways that Paul never taught. I don't mean that with any ill will. There was a time when I jumped to those same conclusions, instead of looking further into it.

usually the EAT EVERYTHING in the MEAT MARKET, means everything, as he said, just eat it, unless if it were about conscience.

Paul ate romam guard food in acts 16, there were no jewish butchers in philippi, not even a synagogue, no less a jewish butcher.

 

[Frogster]

These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.Rev 2:18-22 ... These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges ... I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Rev 2:13,14

because the phrase fornication and sacrificed to idols was about the actual cultic ritual, to which Paul said not to commit in 1 cor 10 also, but like jesus, he also knew food just passes through a man, in other words, just eat it, but of course don't worship demons, u need to fully undestand the text.

by the way, james said not to lay no further burden about law, as Jesus did in in rev 2;24, if u r gonna quote rev 2, lets quote it..

same words..


Jesus..

Rev 2:24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.

james

Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:

 

[weathered]

usually the EAT EVERYTHING in the MEAT MARKET, means everything, as he said, just eat it, unless if it were about conscience.

Paul ate romam guard food in acts 16, there were no jewish butchers in philippi, not even a synagogue, no less a jewish butcher.

That's important. Paul is saying to observe carefulness when others conscience is in play.

But that's not all hes saying, he also seems to say if we know that its been sacrificed to idols that we ourselves shouldn't eat it. He seems to say "what we dont know wont hurt us" as far as meat and idols go, but once we ourselves know that its sacrificed to idols we would only tempt Gods jealousy if we ate it, we are not stronger than God. I don't know why Paul doesn't just say dont eat it and be done with it, im not sure why he talks about not defiling another man's conscience and then also say not to eat it anyway out of love for God, but he does. Maybe hes trying to show something with all that.

 

[weathered]

If i misunderstand this scripture and don't know what i'm talking about then i am willing to hear what others think it means.

 

[New_Wineskin]

do u mean the law that peter said was a yoke, that the fathers experientially, historically lived under before the contents of the council meeting was even known?

Yeah , those apostles were all anti-law according to the proponents of works for worhipping on the Sabbath .

 

[Standing Up]

I think that was is missing from the above is that it would have been considered "sinning" by Jewish oral law for a Jew to be sitting to eat with anyone who is "gentile born" and not a convert. They could have been eating perfectly good, biblically clean food, and those who fallowed the man-made laws would have considered it all unclean- because it was touched by people whom they considered to be intrinsically unclean. Does this mean that he was really sinning by eating with people of the nations? No. Is there anything in the text that said that they were eating unclean food? No.

All else is just adding in assumptions, to try and make the text say what it doesn't.

Maybe. I doubt Peter, after being with Jesus, would consider either thing "unclean".

I think that especially being with Messiah would've strengthened all of their Torah obedience...instead of weakening them.

This is in line with Peter's utter shock when he first encountered God's vision.

"me? eat something unclean?? NEVER!"
Nothing but, complete obedience to God's Holy Instructions.

If I might suggest something on a spiritual level, rather than carnal . The Body of Christ is made up of Jew/Gentile.

What Jenna pointed out makes sense.

Acts 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.

IOW, God has cleansed what was unclean and it may be eaten into the Body.

If that isn't clear, don't worry about.

C/U around.

 

[Frogster]

That's important. Paul is saying to observe carefulness when others conscience is in play.

But that's not all hes saying, he also seems to say if we know that its been sacrificed to idols that we ourselves shouldn't eat it. He seems to say "what we dont know wont hurt us" as far as meat and idols go, but once we ourselves know that its sacrificed to idols we would only tempt Gods jealousy if we ate it, we are not stronger than God. I don't know why Paul doesn't just say dont eat it and be done with it, im not sure why he talks about not defiling another man's conscience and then also say not to eat it anyway out of love for God, but he does. Maybe hes trying to show something with all that.

Yup, sometimes we want to be careful, other times Jesus was a stumbling block.

 

[Frogster]

Yeah , those apostles were all anti-law according to the proponents of works for worhipping on the Sabbath .

yeah, and i never get a good rebuttal, they say sure, no yoke for salvation, but peter dated it way back , before the council meeting that had nothing to do with the fathers and their law experience, and historical perspective.

 

[dollarsbill]

yawn.

Still waiting for that verse that tells us that Peter ate unclean foods.

I already know that the vision was in reference to people. Peter told us so. Twice.

Actually it was about food also. Unless you think God told Peter to "kill and eat" people.

Acts 10:12-13 (NASB)
12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13 A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!"