The Apostle Paul: “What matters is keeping the commandments of God”

[BobRyan]

Yet, Yeshua stated the bread he gives is NOT LIKE the bread given to Moses. John 6:32 & 58 Which lays waste to assumption that they taught the same thing.

Not true.

In Luke 16 "IF they will not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one RISES FROM THE DEAD".

In Mark 7:6-13 Jesus equates "Commandment of God" = "Moses Said" = "Word of God" and condemns all traditions raised up against it.

Bible details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

Silly game of semantics. GOD gave all of the law of Moses. The words of the son of GOD are what I will follow.

Hebrews 8:6-12 says it is Christ speaking at Sinai.

2 Peter 1:19-21 says it is God the Holy Spirit speaking in the OT just as in the New

 

[Shimshon]

Not true.

So, which statement of Jesus' is not true?

John 6
32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.​

or

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
​

 

[Shimshon]

Not true.

In Luke 16 "IF they will not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one RISES FROM THE DEAD".

As you say, details matter. This verse is a non-sequitur having nothing to do with equating the two spoken Words from heaven at two distinct times in human history. Your assumption that they are referring to the same spoken Word is probably because you have been so trained to see something where it is actually not. The context is it's Jesus' Words that were to be 'listened' to, not Moses'. The whole point of the text was to show that Moses and the prophets spoke about Jesus and what he would say. Not that Jesus would speak of what Moses was given.

It still amazes me how the adversary uses the law against itself, or others. You can't bend the truth back on itself, any more than you can bend Jesus' Words back to Moses.

 

[Shimshon]

Not true.

In Mark 7:6-13 Jesus equates "Commandment of God" = "Moses Said" = "Word of God" and condemns all traditions raised up against it.

And yet another failed attempt to construe a verse to your paradigm. He was speaking to those who were given the Law, as Judge and King. Are you of the house of Israel that you were given those Words and commands? Does faith in Jesus cause you to become one? Again, you superimpose your own belief onto the text and only see what you want it to say. It's as if your blind to the reality of the text by SDA traditions.

 

[Shimshon]

Do you actually believe the conclusion to the story is the introduction? That the fulfillment of our purpose is to go back to where we were? A final word is not a summation of the introduction, it's the key to operate and understand the entire book. Without it the huge body of text makes no sense. "And in conclusion.........(start from the beginning).

God’s Final Word: His Son
Hebrews 1
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,

2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
​

Are you aware that the whole context of the book of Hebrews is the 'contrast' between what was spoken in the past and what is spoken now? Do you see the contrast laid out in the very first verse of the book? It is expounded upon more in the next two verses. The Son does what the Law could not (contrast). The Law was NOT the radiance o f God's glory, it was a shadow and pattern of it. The Law was NOT the exact representation of his being, it did not sustain all things by the power of it's Word. As glorious as it was, it was fading. The Law does not provide purification for our sins, and is not seated at the right hand of God.


The Son however, is. And has become much superior to the angels, having a name greater than they.

Are you aware that the Law is referred to as being given by angels? Not only in the new testament but by Jewish historians. Meaning it's a very Jewish understanding that was echoed by the Apostles.

Antiquities of the Jews 15:163
“And for ourselves, we have learned from G-d the most excellent of our doctrines, and the most holy part of our law, by angels or ambassadors.”

Acts 7
53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

Galatians 3
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

Hebrews 2
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
​

Again proving my statement that the entire context of the book of Hebrews is a contrast between the Law and Jesus. Each chapter delves deeper into that reality.

5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.

6 But there is a place where someone has testified: “What is mankind that you are mindful of them, a son of man that you care for him?

7 You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor 8 and put everything under their feet.”In putting everything under them,God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them.

9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.​

Notice in the world to come we will not be subject to that which was given through angels, or mediated through them. Notice the context is about the world(Word) to come, as opposed to the world(Word) that was. The Son was made a little lower than the angels when he was born under the law. And when he was crowned with glory and honor everything was put under him, all authority in heaven and earth. He became superior than the angels and that which was given by them. Because they only lead to the Son, but the Son leads to God himself. The Law leads to Jesus who leads to the presence of God. Not back to the law.

What Jesus did and does the Law could never do. Our relationship with God is not based upon the Law but on the Spirit, who receives his instructions from Jesus himself. The more sure Word spoken in our hearts. An actual relationship with the Spirit of God instead of commands mediated through angels. We hear the Word inside us as it lead us into the very will of God. Leading us into the world to come, not the past.

 

[Dkh587]

Yet, Yeshua stated the bread he gives is NOT LIKE the bread given to Moses. John 6:32 & 58 Which lays waste to assumption that they taught the same thing.



What is 'This' in verse 58 referring to? The Word given in the wilderness, or the Words Yeshua spoke?




Why did so many followers turn away and no longer walk with him? Because he pointed to the laws given Moses? Or because he pointed to a Word given from heaven that was not like the Word given in the wilderness? He openly taught that the former if eaten will always lead to death, but the latter if eaten will always lead to life. Those who eat the former will have no way to eternal life UNLESS they eat what Yeshua feeds.




Yet you teach they are the same, a Hebrew Roots fallacy.

You’ve yet to show that Jesus & Moses taught in opposition to each other. Your post was irrelevant to this thread.

 

[Shimshon]

You’ve yet to show that Jesus & Moses taught in opposition to each other. Your post was irrelevant to this thread.

No, it's quite relevant. In fact it's proving exactly what you ask. But you don't seem to be able to see at all. Your response is what is completely irrelevant.

 

[Shimshon]

Jesus taught things that Moses wrote and commanded.

You can follow both Jesus and Moses because they both teach the same thing.

John 6:32 “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

Romans 7:1-14
1 Surely you know, brothers – for I am speaking to those who understand Torah – that the Torah has authority over a person only so long as he lives?

4 Thus, my brothers, you have been made dead with regard to the Torah through the Messiah’s body, so that you may belong to someone else, namely, the one who has been raised from the dead, in order for us to bear fruit for God.

5 For when we were living according to our old nature, the passions connected with sins worked through the Torah in our various parts, with the result that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from this aspect of the Torah, because we have died to that which had us in its clutches, so that we are serving in the new way provided by the Spirit and not in the old way of outwardly following the letter of the law.​

Through union with Messiah's body we have been made dead to Moses. Because it was not through Moses that life comes.

Romans 8:1-2
1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the “Torah” of sin and death.

John 6​

43 … Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh is no help. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and life,

John 8
51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him.....comes to Yeshua, not Moses. So what a huge lie to claim that Yeshua leads all to Moses. And in the name of the Father's commands even! Using the Law against the very message of Messiah! Yeshua did not come to return us, renew us, and replace us under the laws dealing with sin and death. He came to remove and forgive all sins, past present and future. And lead us into all righteousness by gifting us who believe in him with the Spirit of the Living God.

If a Holy Spirit dwells within you keeping you clean by his Word within you (a process, not a position) then what need has anyone of us with the Spirit to be led into laws that deal with sins and death? Are you not forgiven? Is the Spirit not producing in you a life in union with Messiah Yeshua and the Living God? Why would you need to do the commands that deal with sins when you have been forgiven them and are led by the Spirit? The Spirit of Life eternal leads us into laws of sin and death? Or purifies us daily as we walk with Him?

The Torah of Messiah (My sayings John 12:7) are not the same as the Torah of Moses. John 6:43-58

 

[BobRyan]

Yet, Yeshua stated the bread he gives is NOT LIKE the bread given to Moses. John 6:32 & 58 Which lays waste to assumption that they taught the same thing.

Not true.

In Luke 16 "IF they will not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one RISES FROM THE DEAD".

In Mark 7:6-13 Jesus equates "Commandment of God" = "Moses Said" = "Word of God" and condemns all traditions raised up against it.

Bible details matter.

So, which statement of Jesus' is not true?

I find your logic "illusive" just then.

And since you are ignoring the texts I just posted... more of the details.
Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Affirming "Word of God" = "Moses Said" = "Commandment of God"

Irrefutable


============================

John 6
32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.​

In John 6 Jesus points out that GOD gave the Manna from heaven not Moses -- in response to the Jews argument that Jesus should do some great miracle like Moses who gave them manna from heaven.

Has nothing at all to do with the wild claims about Jesus at war with scripture of his day - or at war with the writings of Moses.


John 6

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

This is where Jesus contrasts the miracle of God in giving mankind literal bread from heaven - vs the miracle of God giving mankind the Savior.

Has nothing at all to do with the wild claims about Jesus at war with scripture of his day - or at war with the writings of Moses.

​

 

[BobRyan]

In Mark 7:6-13 Jesus equates "Commandment of God" = "Moses Said" = "Word of God" and condemns all traditions raised up against it.

Bible details matter.

And yet another failed attempt to construe a verse to your paradigm. He was speaking to those who were given the Law, as Judge and King.

And since you are ignoring the texts I just posted... more of the details.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Affirming "Word of God" = "Moses Said" = "Commandment of God"

Irrefutable

Are you of the house of Israel that you were given those Words and commands? Does faith in Jesus cause you to become one?

Hebrews 8:6-12 NEW COVENANT given to "The house of Israel and the house of Judah".

Yep - I am a NEW Covenant Christian ...

And you ???

 

[Dkh587]

John 6:32 “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

Romans 7:1-14
1 Surely you know, brothers – for I am speaking to those who understand Torah – that the Torah has authority over a person only so long as he lives?

4 Thus, my brothers, you have been made dead with regard to the Torah through the Messiah’s body, so that you may belong to someone else, namely, the one who has been raised from the dead, in order for us to bear fruit for God.

5 For when we were living according to our old nature, the passions connected with sins worked through the Torah in our various parts, with the result that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from this aspect of the Torah, because we have died to that which had us in its clutches, so that we are serving in the new way provided by the Spirit and not in the old way of outwardly following the letter of the law.​

Through union with Messiah's body we have been made dead to Moses. Because it was not through Moses that life comes.

Romans 8:1-2
1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the “Torah” of sin and death.

John 6​

43 … Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh is no help. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and life,

John 8
51 Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him.....comes to Yeshua, not Moses. So what a huge lie to claim that Yeshua leads all to Moses. And in the name of the Father's commands even! Using the Law against the very message of Messiah! Yeshua did not come to return us, renew us, and replace us under the laws dealing with sin and death. He came to remove and forgive all sins, past present and future. And lead us into all righteousness by gifting us who believe in him with the Spirit of the Living God.

If a Holy Spirit dwells within you keeping you clean by his Word within you (a process, not a position) then what need has anyone of us with the Spirit to be led into laws that deal with sins and death? Are you not forgiven? Is the Spirit not producing in you a life in union with Messiah Yeshua and the Living God? Why would you need to do the commands that deal with sins when you have been forgiven them and are led by the Spirit? The Spirit of Life eternal leads us into laws of sin and death? Or purifies us daily as we walk with Him?

The Torah of Messiah (My sayings John 12:7) are not the same as the Torah of Moses. John 6:43-58

Sorry, but you can’t convince me to not obey Moses. To disobey Moses is to disobey God, as God gave Moses the commandments. Besides, Christ & the Apostles & the 1st century assemblies obeyed the law - why would I listen to a random poster on ChristianForums that encourages me to disregard God’s commands?

 

[Shimshon]

Sorry, but you can’t convince me to not obey Moses. To disobey Moses is to disobey God, as God gave Moses the commandments. Besides, Christ & the Apostles & the 1st century assemblies obeyed the law - why would I listen to a random poster on ChristianForums that encourages me to disregard God’s commands?

And this is not an answer. This is a cop out. And it proves that you do not have the answer to my response. I disagree with your suppositions fully. And I backup my position with loads of scripture laid out. You simply say wrong without addressing a single scripture I posted. Which are plentiful. Not a very productive conversation really. Good day

 

[Dkh587]

And this is not an answer. This is a cop out. And it proves that you do not have the answer to my response. I disagree with your suppositions fully. And I backup my position with loads of scripture laid out. You simply say wrong without addressing a single scripture I posted. Which are plentiful. Not a very productive conversation really. Good day

conversation in here will not be very productive if you continue to post ramblings & scriptures that are irrelevant to the OP.

If the Apostle Paul says to obey the commandments of God, which is also known as the law, then the burden is on you to show why we should NOT obey the law. So far, you’ve failed.

 

[HARK!]

Are you of the house of Israel that you were given those Words and commands?

Was Yahshua commissioned for you?

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Are you in covenant with YHWH?

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

 

[RDKirk]

How so? He’s saying that who you are doesn’t count: obeying God’s commands is what counts. I didn’t miss anything. It’s written plainly.

Not everyone can obey God's commands in the station he is in when he discovers Christ. That happened to many Roman soldiers, for instance. It would not have been possible for many Christians who were enslaved to immoral Roman masters, such as master who used his male Christian slave for homosexual purposes. That's why Paul explicitly advised slaves to gain their freedom if they could, and those who were not slaves to avoid giving themselves into slavery.

 

[BobRyan]

the Apostle wrote that no matter who you are when you were called into Christ, that what matters the most is to keep the commandments of God

Notice that he taught this in ALL of the churches/assemblies of Christ. All of the assemblies/churches Paul taught at, lived in obedience to God’s commands as taught by the Apostle Paul


1 Corinthians 7:18-19 NIV

‭

Amen - as he said there "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

And the commandments of God include that specific unit of TEN where we find that "the FIRST commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment -- Eph 6:1-2

 

[BobRyan]

Not everyone can obey God's commands in the station he is in when he discovers Christ. That happened to many Roman soldiers, for instance. It would not have been possible for many Christians who were enslaved to immoral Roman masters, such as master who used his male Christian slave for homosexual purposes. That's why Paul explicitly advised slaves to gain their freedom if they could, and those who were not slaves to avoid giving themselves into slavery.

Daniel and his 3 friends were taken as a slave to Babylon - and chose obedience over death.

Rev 13 ends on a note that warns mankind - such a condition will come about again - only on a world wide scale.

 

[BobRyan]

The $64 question is, "What are GOD's commandments?" What Moses said, or what Jesus and his apostles said?

Mark 7:6-12 -- Jesus said it is "Commandment of God" = "Word of God" = "Moses said"

Jesus was right.

Heb 8:6-12 reminds us that it is "Jesus speaking" at Mount Sinai.

So then ... it is still a sin to "take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- even for Christians.

 

[RDKirk]

Daniel and his 3 friends were taken as a slave to Babylon - and chose obedience over death.

Rev 13 ends on a note that warns mankind - such a condition will come about again - only on a world wide scale.

Clearly Daniel and his friends had no volition in being taken as slaves. If it didn't matter, Paul would not have counseled people who had volition to leave slavery and not to enter slavery.

I suspect that Paul was referring to debt slavery. But the point was that ideally a Christian should be free to follow the will of God as necessary.