The Apocrypha -- Errors?

[Rdr Iakovos]

And it predates your EOC church as well, despite your claims to the contrary. The 'we' is in reference to the church of Christ, which has been present since his time here on earth. This generic use of the word 'we' is entirely right and Biblical, despite one main's claims.

I am connected to the body of Christ through Christ, not through an institutional church organization. The Nicene Creed does not require an organized institution, so I think it's time that you stop self-righteously claiming a monopoly on truth.

Your particular Christian sect is just one of those that claims to have the monopoly on the truth, to be the 'true church.' There are many, and they include the Mormons, the JWs, the RCC, and the like. So, James, I can see no difference in your claims to your church's authority than I do with the Mormons and the JWs.

I hope I got my point across. I hope you saw that my post could have been more respectful, and that lumping your church and you in with JWs and Mormons isn't a fair practice.

I was being facitious earlier when I said that; I'm quite afraid you were not, however. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Sarcasm more sanctified than indignity?
You lost me there.

We can demonstrate an unbroken tradition, episcopal succession, and continuity of doctrine from before the time of the canonization of scripture.In that respect, we were there, and you were not. That you receive holy scripture and many of the decisions of the Councils demonstrates that you are sincere, and take the nae of Christ seriously and with devotion. That you would compare those who went before you to modern heretics undermines that sincerity and devotion.

Any further personal comments on your part should be made via PM- to do so here is inappropriate.
Thanks
James

 

[WarriorAngel]

Okay, first of all you have to understand there are hundreds of early writings -- over 300 I think it is.

Okay, so let me ask you a question -- if every written account found said Jesus attended the Hannukah or The Feast of the Tabernacles or the Passover, does that suddenly make that a "bible" book?

Um...pretty much. Unless Jesus did not celebrate inspired festivities...and then what would be the point to celebrating them?

YOU do know WHY thios was celebrated...dont you?
IT is very much about God.

Thanksgiving is in the Bible ....CJ. Its just not covered as to HOW we should give thanks in all things. lol

 

[lionroar0]

And it predates your EOC church as well, despite your claims to the contrary. The 'we' is in reference to the church of Christ, which has been present since his time here on earth. This generic use of the word 'we' is entirely right and Biblical, despite one main's claims

.

Christians were there and decided what books should be in the Bible. However the Christians that were there were Catholic and Orthodox not Protestant.

Peace

 

[Renton405]

The New Testament does make numerous allusions to the deuterocanonical books. For one strong example, examine Hebrews 11:35: "Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release that they might rise again to a better life." Nowhere in the Protestant Old Testament can this story be found. One must look to a Catholic Bible to read the story in 2 Maccabees 7.

I always had trouble understanding what that verse meant. Im gonna check up the relation. Thanx

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Although I know that most Protestants oppose the inclusion of the Apocrypha in the canon of the Scriptures, I'd like to know reasons why they should be 'kept out.'

That is, I have heard much about 'errors' contained within, such as historical anachronisms, out of place teaching (compared with the rest of Scripture), and inaccurate history. Can these claims of errors be backed up with evidence?

Those who include the Apocrypha, you are extremely welcome to post evidence you believe supports these Scriptures and offer rebuttal of the claim of error.

I look forward to learning a lot!

IF you meet His Conditions, and only IF, THEN
Yahweh Abba Himself will teach you the truth, just as Yahshua in Union and Unity with Him, Promised. [It Is Written]
(this means you must forsake all of man's adulterous, pernicious and hypocritical practices and teachings altogether; abhor the defilement
and take a stand for the Truth, no matter it costs you all you have and hope and hope to be.)

 

[NewCatholic]

If you're still looking forward to learning ( a lot or a little, at least the truth) prayerfully and daily
take the time to read repeatedly, devour even, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Matthew, Luke, and 1 John and 1 Peter....
By the time you've read these books 3 times, you won't have any more questions about the unacceptable ones, Yahweh Abba Himself will show you the truth, just as Jesus Promised.

Neither the Protestants nor Orthodox Jews have said that the Deuterocanonical books are objectionable in any way. The disagreement is whether they are inspired. And since they are in the Septuagent bible, that is the bible used in Palistine at the time of Christ, we believe that they are infact inspired.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Not only that the RCC didn't even declare them to be Scrpiture until the Council of Trent in 1563.

A little more research on the subject will reveal that the Holy Scripture of the New Testament was declared by and as a result of the Decree of Pope St. Damasus 1 at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D.


The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D....

ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:

It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.
The list of the . . . . Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Council of Hippo in 393 reaffirmed the canon put forth by Pope Damasus I...

AD 393: Council of Hippo. "It has been decided that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture." (canon 36 A.D. 393).

The Third Council of Carthage reaffirmed anew, the Canon put forth by Pope Damasus I...

AD 397: Council of Carthage III. "It has been decided that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. " (canon 47 A.D. 397).

Again in A.D. 405 Pope Innocent I reaffirmed the Canon in a letter to Bishop Exsuperius of Toulouse.

The Canon was reaffirmed again and again throughout the mellenia, the MOST RECENT (nowhere the earliest) was the Council of Trent.

For future reference, the Canons of all of the Councils are available for anyone who might want check it out for themselves. Here's one source http://jts.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/citation/os-L/2/197.

May the grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[DrawnToChrist]

A little more research on the subject will reveal that the Holy Scripture of the New Testament was declared by and as a result of the Decree of Pope St. Damasus 1 at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D.


The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D....

ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:

It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.
The list of the . . . . Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Council of Hippo in 393 reaffirmed the canon put forth by Pope Damasus I...

AD 393: Council of Hippo. "It has been decided that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture." (canon 36 A.D. 393).

The Third Council of Carthage reaffirmed anew, the Canon put forth by Pope Damasus I...

AD 397: Council of Carthage III. "It has been decided that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. " (canon 47 A.D. 397).

Again in A.D. 405 Pope Innocent I reaffirmed the Canon in a letter to Bishop Exsuperius of Toulouse.

The Canon was reaffirmed again and again throughout the mellenia, the MOST RECENT (nowhere the earliest) was the Council of Trent.

For future reference, the Canons of all of the Councils are available for anyone who might want check it out for themselves.
May the grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.

Good work IOA. If people would verify the facts prior to posting, instead of repeating every fallacy they hear, this kind of fallacy would get posted a lot less and we could avoid having to make these corrections again and again.

 

[leothelioness]

A little more research on the subject will reveal that the Holy Scripture of the New Testament was declared by and as a result of the Decree of Pope St. Damasus 1 at the Council of Rome in 382 A.D.


The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Council of Rome. 382 A.D....

ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:

It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.
The list of the . . . . Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The Council of Hippo in 393 reaffirmed the canon put forth by Pope Damasus I...

AD 393: Council of Hippo. "It has been decided that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture." (canon 36 A.D. 393).

The Third Council of Carthage reaffirmed anew, the Canon put forth by Pope Damasus I...

AD 397: Council of Carthage III. "It has been decided that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. " (canon 47 A.D. 397).

Again in A.D. 405 Pope Innocent I reaffirmed the Canon in a letter to Bishop Exsuperius of Toulouse.

The Canon was reaffirmed again and again throughout the mellenia, the MOST RECENT (nowhere the earliest) was the Council of Trent.

For future reference, the Canons of all of the Councils are available for anyone who might want check it out for themselves. Here's one source http://jts.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/citation/os-L/2/197.

May the grace of Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

Your brother in Christ.

Why wasn't there any mention of the books of Esdras, Tobit, Maccabees, etc.? Were those Old Testament books?

 

[repentant]

Someone posted on the first page that the "Apocrypha" was never quoted in Scripture by Jesus or the NT writers. This is a false statement. For one, if you look at the Septuagint which is the Orthodox Old Testament, which contains the Books labeled "Apocrypha" by the Protestant world, the verse used to describe the Virgin Birth Prophesized by Isaiah, is from here. "Behold a Virgin shall give birth, and his name shall be Emmanuel.." which is used in Matthew in the telling of the dream of Joseph and the visit by the Angel Gabriel. This comes from the Septuagint, NOT the Jewish version of the Torah. The Jewish version reads, young maiden, not young Virgin. The Jews changed ALOT of their Scripture to make Jesus not look like the Messiah. This is also why the TOOK OUT the books labeled "Apocrypha", which remained in the Christian Church Septuagint.

There are also other instances of the Sepuagint being quoted..

Matthew relies on the Septuagint for the assertion that the Messiah's mother was to be a virgin (Matthew 1.23). Jesus himself follows the traditional Septuagint wording in condemning the Pharisees' traditions (Matthew 15.8-9). The Septuagint clearly prophesies that Jesus will heal the blind (Luke 4.18-19) - but the Masoretic text is more obscure. The Septuagint foretold that the Messiah's death would be unjust (Acts 8.32-33) and that the Gentiles would seek the Lord (Acts 15.16-17). The Hebrew has the nations being "possessed" along with Edom. Paul knows that a remnant of Israel will be saved because he was reading the Old Testament in Greek (Romans 9.27-28). Perhaps if his topic were the return to the Holy Land and not salvation, he would have found the Hebrew reading more suitable. Following the Greek, he knows that the Messiah will conquer his people's sin - not that he would come to those who had already cleansed themselves from sin, as the Hebrew would have it (Romans 11.26-27). Paul's thought that Jesus would rule the Gentiles also depends on a Septuagint reading (Romans 15.12). The author of the book of Hebrews - to prove the deity of Christ - proclaims the truth that Jesus is worshipped by all the angels of God (Hebrews 1.6). But the Hebrew Old Testament does not contain that verse. Also on the basis of the Greek Old Testament, that author asserts that the incarnation was prophecied (Hebrews 10.5-7) - that Jesus would have a body, which he would offer for our sanctification (Hebrews 10.10). The Masoretic text at this point stresses auditory capability. Finally, where the Masoretic text described a nonviolent suffering servant, the Septuagint prophesied a sinless Messiah (1 Peter 2.22).

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Were those Old Testament books?

They are indeed books in the Septuagent Old Testament. That is the version of the Old Testament that was used in the area of Palistine at the time of Christ.


Grace and peace to you.


Yours in Christ.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

simple

 

[CrusaderKing]

First off, let me clear something up. Apocrypha does not mean gnostic, but means "those having been hidden away." Gnosis simply means knowledge.

Division about what the canon of the Bible should be is nothing new. They didn't have the internet back then like we do now. There were a lot of factors contributing to differences that could not quickly be settled. Early Christians adopted the Septuagint. But there are slight differences in what the EO and the RC has included, even going as far as the Ethiopian Orthodox having a loose canon that actually includes Enoch.

I've seen enough Bible canon arguments to realize that they are pointless. As long as you aren't reading stuff like the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Judas, I can't really have a complaint. Yes, I know no good Bible contains those books and thankfully so.