the apocalypse

Straightshot said:

Just plug them in .... the first beast and his relationship with the second

The first beast [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 13:13; 16:1-16; 17:8-18; 19:19-21]

You do this and then ask me further questions on the fit

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If Abaddon is not released until Satan is cast down from the war in heaven in Revelation 12 - how can Abaddon kill the two witness to end the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 - which is before Satan is cast down in Revelation 12:12-13?

Revealing Times said:

The First "Beast" is the Anti-Christ.
The Second Beast is the False Prophet.
Both are men, the first beast gets possessed by Satan, so I would imagine the second beast does also by some powerful demon.

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Revelation 13:

THIS CHAPTER IS ABOUT THE LAST 42 MONTHS OF THE 7 YEARS

____________________________________________________________________________________

The first beast in this chapter, is the person who "was" the Antichrist, the King of Israel, instead of Jesus the rightful king, for a short time (forthcoming). When he goes into the temple, claims God-hood, the Jews will reject him as continuing as their king. Thus, with the 42 months left in the 7 years, the person is no longer the Antichrist, but has become the beast.

Satan possesses neither the beast, nor the false prophet. But incarnates the image of the beast, making the image appear alive, and demanding everyone to worhip.

When Jesus returns in Revelation 19, the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire.

Satan will be exposed and will be chained and cast into the bottomless pit, Revelation 20.

victorinus said:

why would you think the beast is a person?
in daniel it is clear that the beasts are empires

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The Last Beast System is the Little Horn and the Ten Kings combined. This guy is so powerful he is called a Beast by John, whereas Daniel calls him a Little Horn in chapters 7 and 8. I think the Reason John calls him a Beast is that Satan eventually possesses the man who is known as the Anti-Christ/Little Horn, and all of the "Beast Systems" were called Beasts because they were orchestrated by Satan himself, that is why it says in Revelation 17 that he is "of the Seven". Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (He gets possessed by Satan Himself, so he continues only 3 1/2 years)

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

This above, imho, is why John calls him a beast. (Jesus actually gives us Revelation) The Seven that Satan ruled was Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and Revived Rome or the coming 10 nation confederation who rules with the Anti-Christ. Since these are all considered Beasts or Heads, then Jesus is saying, Satan is the actual Beast, and he possesses this man, thus this man is a Beast himself.

Douggg said:

The heads are 7 kings. Not 7 kingdoms.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

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The Heads are Seven Kings that "have fallen" not just seven kings. Which means they stood for the final King of each Beast System, Jesus doesn't want to confuse us by listing each King from each Beast System, which could have been hundreds of Kings. He just says each Head represents a King (Kingdom) that has fallen, or been conquered. There was a King at the helm when each Kingdom fell, no doubt, Belshazzar was the King at the helm of Babylon when it Fell, so he is one of the Five Kings that had Fallen, the one King that was still living at Johns time, Jesus dared not put the church in harms way by naming the King in power at Johns time, so he did it this way. The Last Kings of course are the Anti-Christ followed by Satan who possesses him. 7th and 8th

victorinus said:

keep going to daniel 7:23

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This just proves that the Kings are considered both Kingdoms and Kings.

Waterwerx said:

This is just... wrong. Where you get Constantine, Mohammed, and Marx is beyond me and makes absolutely no sense. It looks like you're just plugging stuff in wherever it seems to fit and ending up with a big mess that doesn't adhere to each other in the whole model.

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I agree, but to each his own, all we can do is cite scriptures to back up our understandings.

Revealing Times said:

The Heads are Seven Kings that "have fallen" not just seven kings.

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What does the text say? 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Which means they stood for the final King of each Beast System, Jesus doesn't want to confuse us by listing each King from each Beast System, which could have been hundreds of Kings. He just says each Head represents a King (Kingdom) that has fallen, or been conquered.

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There is no such mention of a "system" in Revelation. The 7 kings are kings of fourth empire, the Roman Empire. At the time of John, 1st century, five had fallen , one is (number 6), and the other (number 7) not yet come (future of John's time).

There was a King at the helm when each Kingdom fell, no doubt, Belshazzar was the King at the helm of Babylon when it Fell, so he is one of the Five Kings that had Fallen, the one King that was still living at Johns time, Jesus dared not put the church in harms way by naming the King in power at Johns time, so he did it this way. The Last Kings of course are the Anti-Christ followed by Satan who possesses him. 7th and 8th

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It is not kingdoms, but kings of one empire, the fourth empire. The other three empires are presented in the Daniel 2 statue image. A total of four. The ten toes within the fourth empire, in the end times form, are the ten kings.

Douggg said:

There is a progression defined by the crowns/no crowns, to know that Chapter 13 is the second half of the seven years.

Chapter 13 - the only timeframe given in Chapter 13 is 42 months.

Chapter 12 - the first half of the 7 years is the 1260 days of Revelation 12:6; then the war in the second heaven; then the time, times, and half times Satan is cast down in Revelation 12:14, the second half.

12:6 + 12:14 is the 7 years.

Chapter 17 - the sixth king "is" at the time of John. John lived 1st century. Those things that are in the future, are said to be in the future.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

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I agree Rev. 13 is about the last 42 Months, it is when Satan gets cast down and possesses the Anti-Christ. He is given power to overcome the Saints for 42 Months. I disagree on Rev. 12:6 being the First Half of the Seven Years, why would it be ? Satan, as you say in Rev. 13 only comes down at the Midway point. And as we see in Daniel 12:1 and Rev. 12:7 Micheal stands up, or casts Satan out of Heaven, then he comes after Israel, and that all happens at the Mid-way point. I agree the Sixth King was at Johns time, no doubt about that. The problem many people has is they do not understand that Revelation is not in chronological order, it is a series of visions that overlap, I did a thread on this on disqus, that basically proves that Revelation is not in anywise in order. I will post it below............

Revelation is not in chronological order

Revelation chapter six is the Seals so it is not ending right before the return of Christ with us Saints coming back in Revelation 19. The end of each of these chapters I point out below ends close to Jesus' return, like chapter 12, we know it starts at around the birth of Israel/birth of Christ but it ends with Satan chasing Israel into the wilderness in the 42 month period and her being protected 42 months, which puts the end of the chapter right at Jesus' return.

1. Revelation chapter 7 ends with the Saints that died in the Tribulation standing before the throne of God.
2. Rev. 9 has the Armies of Armageddon/200 thousand, thousand.
3. Rev. 10 is John eating the the book which had the uttering's of the seven thunders, in 7:7 it says when he begins to sound, the mystery of God will be finished.
4. In Revelation 11 the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days. The end of the 1260 will be the close to the end
5. In Revelation chapter 12 I have already explained, it ends with Israel in the Wilderness
6. Rev. 13 speaks of the Beast and his 42 months. This will be the end no doubt.
7. Rev. 14 has Jesus and the 144,000 and ends with the angel thrusting the sickle into the earth to harvest the harvest.
8. Rev. 15 is the Seven Last Plagues.
9. Rev. 16 is the Seven Vials of Gods wrath.
9. Rev. 17 is the Great Harlot being Judged of God.
10. Rev. 18 is the World (Babylon) being judged by God.

Then in Revelation 19 we see the Saints who were raptured coming back with Jesus on white horses. So much of the book of Revelation is happening at the same time or are overlapping visions.

All of those chapters are happening concurrently. Revelation is not in chronological order.

Revealing Times said:

I agree Rev. 13 is about the last 42 Months, it is when Satan gets cast down and possesses the Anti-Christ. He is given power to overcome the Saints for 42 Months. I disagree on Rev. 12:6 being the First Half of the Seven Years, why would it be ? Satan, as you say in Rev. 13 only comes down at the Midway point.

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When Satan is cast down to earth, it means that he will be restricted to earth. No longer having access to heaven making accusations against us every time we sin.

Satan has always had freedom to roam the earth seeking who he can destroy.

In Revelation 12, the 1260 days in 12:6 is before the war in heaven in 12:7, which is what puts the 1260 days as the first half of the 7 years.

First half
Revelation 11:3 the 1260 days
Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days
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3 1/2 days the two witness's bodies lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem.
They come back to life , ascend to heaven. Followed by the war in heaven and Satan cast down, restricted to earth, a time, times, half times.
_____________________________________________________

Second half
Revelation 11:2 the 42 months
Revelation 13:5 the 42 months
Daniel 7:25, the time, times, half times
Daniel 12:7, the time, times, half times
Revelation 12:14, the time, times, half times

The basic formula for the 7 years:
1260 days + 3 1/2 days + 42 months (containing the time, times, half times) = 7 years.

.

victorinus said:

do you agree that the ten horns are the second beast?
do you agree that the seven heads are the first beast?

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The Ten Horns and the Anti-Christ make up one of the Seven Heads. That is why you see Seven heads with Ten Horns. Jesus wanted us to understand that the "coming Beast System" was made up of a ten nation confederation with the Anti-Christ. Just like Persia had 2 horns, one higher than the other, and when Alexander the Great was broken off (killed) Four Horns rose up in his place, the Horns are represents Kings. Thus there are 10 Horns on the Seven Headed Beast.

Straightshot said:

The unfulfilled portion of prophecy is still out in front of us .... nothing is recorded in the scope of the prophetic scriptures between the ending of the 69 weeks of years decreed upon Israel and the beginning of the 70th week of the 70 weeks of years decreed .... if you do not understand this truth you will be confused by all of the various attempts to insert events of history in to the breaching which are not there

On the subject of Satan's first beast of Revelation, this entity must be discovered and defined before any other related scriptures can be rendered correctly

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Agreed and agreed. Great analysis.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

There are no crowns on the ten horns.
There are seven crowns upon the heads

What is the seven crowns upon the heads telling you?


________________________________________________
And when you read chapter 12, make a mental note, as the heading of that chapter

THIS CHAPTER IS ABOUT THE FULL SEVEN YEARS
the first five verses are a historic preamble to identify the woman as Israel.

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Again, excellent analysis on the woman being Israel, no doubt about this. But after the "Historical" history lesson, basically told only to tell us the Secret of the Woman as being Israel and not the Church. That was the only reason we needed to hear the first five verses, it was a "secret" of God, that Jesus told us in sort of a parable. But the woman (Israel) only flees into the wilderness at the Mid-way point after the Anti-Christ reneges on his Treaty and only after the Anti-Christ is possessed by Satan the 8th King. Why would Israel flee into the Wilderness at the Start of the 7 Year Period ? Jesus told Israel to FLEE into the Wilderness when they saw the Abomination of Desolation, which happens at the 3 1/2 year point, after the Anti-Christ reneges on his Peace Deals.

As per Rev. 12:3, There are two possible understandings here. I see that as Seven Heads (Kingdoms with 7 Crowns signifying Kingdoms or the Seven Beast System) and the 10 Horns signifying that there are Ten Kings that make up the Last Head or Beast System with a MAN called the Little Horn/Man of Sin, who we refer to as the Anti-Christ. We understand this better by bringing in Daniel chapter seven into the mix. But that is where the other theory springs from.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. ( This Fourth Beast will reform with Ten Horns at the End Times/Latter Days, and the Little Horn will arise in the midst of them. )

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. ( Same as Rev. 13, this Little Horn is the Beast of Rev. 13 who speaks Blasphemies against God. And this is where the other possible understanding of Rev. 12:3 comes in. This Little Horn arises amid the Ten Kings who gave their Kingdom unto the Anti-Christ, but when the Anti-Christ reneges on his peace deals, after Satan possesses him, and becomes a War Machine/Dictator, there will be Three Kings that object vehemently, and Satan/Anti-Christ will DESTROY THEM, or uproot them, thus there are Ten Horns at first, but later only Seven Crowns as Three of the Horns/Kings are destroyed for coming against the Anti-Christ. Both of these possibilities exist, I tend to go with the Latter Understanding, seeing as how Daniel 7:7-8 fits better with that understanding.

Douggg said:

What does the text say? Both the seven heads and the ten horns are on the first beast.

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

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This represents all of the Beast Systems combined, all of man kinds hopes of ruling without God at its head. It is just like the Statue Nebuchadnezzar dreamed of, it was ONE STATUE, he saw these Kingdoms as great kingdoms of precious metals, God showed them to Daniel as Beasts, but in the end, they are ALL THE SAME, they represent Satan trying to bring about a Kingdom without God as its Governor or God. In the end the Statue is broken by the Rock (Jesus) and destroyed (Dan. 2)

Straightshot said:

Abaddon/Apollyon and Satan's false prophet [Revelation 9:11; 13:11] .... both are fallen angels like Satan

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I haven't really studied this in depth, so can't say, until I do, I thin for sure Satan possesses the First Beast, so maybe this Demon possesses the False Prophet, I can't say until I study it.

victorinus said:

I have already named the two beasts -
the roman empire and islam - now it is your turn

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Revelation chapter 20:10 proves this theory wrong....10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. {So the Beast and False Prophet are in Hell, they are MEN. Not Religions or Empires.}

{{ I will get to you guys replies in a while, going through all 5 pages. }}

Douggg said:

The beast described in Revelation 17:3 coincides with the first beast of Revelation 13:1.

There are two beasts in Revelation 13.

The text has the 7 heads and ten horns on the first beast.
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The second beast had two small horns like a lamb.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

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13:1 and 17:3 are the same. Do you think the False Prophet with TWO HORNS like a Lamb that spake as a Dragon signifies this False Prophet is of the Church but gets left behind and after the Rapture turns to the Dark arts or unto Satan/Dragon ?

shelley1952 said:

Just a few days ago I was messing around online looking up some things and came across a video put together by different scholars that said that they have studied the scrolls and pieces of them that came out of the caves for years and years and they said they can prove that by the scriptures that were found that predated the time of Constantine that he nor his people changed the scripture like people are trying to say. Now I am not here to argue anything but just saying what I just saw on that video because one of my friends husband is a Messianic Jew and thats what he is always saying that none of our Bibles are correct. I dont know how he believes or what he studies because he is taking an online Biblical schooling of some kind but since he thinks all Bibles are corrupt I dont know what he is studying.
As far as what victorinus originally posted, I must say in all my years of being a believer I have never read such a bunch of crap but hey, if thats what he wants to believe, then thats up to him.
Remember I am just saying what I heard.

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The Jews do not think we got the translations correct, and in many cases they are right, but they also refuse to believe truths, because of course they refuse to believe, (most of them) that Jesus was their Messiah, they have been blinded by God Paul says, for their transgressions. They will receive Jesus as their Messiah before Jesus returns, this is what Daniels 70 Week Decree is all about. So they argue we are ignorant of their Holy Book, in many cases because they refuse to believe the truths therein.

Douggg said:

sorry, no. The seven heads are seven kings. That there are crowns upon the seven heads in Chapter 12 indicates that with 7 years left before Jesus's return, king #7 has come to power, completing the prophecy of the 7 kings in Revelation 17.

The little horn has come to power, and the 7 years are about to begin, beginning with the start of the testimony of the two witnesses, the 1260 days of their testimony in Revelation 12:6.

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Pretty close, except on the Two Witnesses, they are praying down plagues, now lets think logically, why would Israel agree to 3 1/2 years under the Anti-Christ if the Two Witnesses were already there preaching and praying ? The World rejoiced when they died, because all the world saw them praying, and God answering their prayers, by bringing forth plagues upon this evil world, they Turn Israel unto the Messiah Jesus. This can only happen at the Mid-way point, for as soon as they start preaching and praying down plagues, Satan will come after Israel and they must FLEE into the Wilderness. Why would any nations allow the Anti-Christ to become a Dictator, if these Two Great Men of God were telling them who he is before time ? He comes to power via PEACE, then reneges and destroys many and conquers more, once he gains this great power.

Commander said:

The eighth Emperor of the whole Roman Empire was Vespasian. Between Nero and Vespasian was Galba and Othelo, they ruled a split Roman Empire. These combined, add up to the ten horns. The seven heads are the mountains that Rome was built upon.

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The Seven "Mountains" are 7 Kings, not Mountains, you have to use logic here. In Rev. 17:3 the Woman sat on the Beast, now here in Rev. 17: 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. {{ We see the woman is sitting on "Seven Mountains" BUT... Is she really sitting on Mountains ? The very next verse describes "SEVEN KINGS" and 17:3 describes Beasts (Kingdoms) so it seems this translation is wrong, the Greek word used for Mountains here is oros or oro, meaning to rise or rear up above the plains. Using logic, and placing this in context, there seems to be no doubt, this is speaking of Seven Kings/Kingdoms, she sits on them, she sat on the Beast with 7 Heads,(Kingdoms) and in verse 10 below, right after verse 9, we see the Kings are spoken of again, there are SEVEN KINGS !!! I think the Mountains represent Seven Kingdoms that arose, not Seven Hills.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

and no, the errors of translation DO NOT prevent someone from seeking Yhwh nor from following JESUS.
It's just if someone DOESN'T READ THE BIBLE THEM-SELF, but trusts someone else that contradicts the Bible every day, then they have a problem.

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TRUTH....I use Hebrew and Greek sites to get to the truth. There are no excuses, but Israel have been blinded, so said Paul.

Straightshot said:

None of these named above are contained in any prophetic vision of the Bible prophets

Neither are the 7 kingdoms, the hills of Rome ... for example: of the 7, 5 have fallen, 1 is, and the t is yet to come .... this does not describe 7 hills In fact, the ancient Roman Empire is not seen at all in prophetic scripture

This idea was all speculated into the breach between the ending of the 69th week decreed for Israel and beginning of the 70th .... all contrived by the reformers and the later reconstruction movements

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Correct, none of those he mentions are prophesied about, unless one of them was in POWER at the time John wrote the book of Revelation via Jesus Christ, if so, then he would be the ONE THAT IS, the 7 Mountains are Kingdoms, just like the 7 Heads. Rome however is the Fourth Beast and the Anti-Christ and Ten Kings arise out of the Fourth Beast in the Latter Time.

Straightshot said:

My comment

Many have and do ....making merchandise of people by telling them what they want to hear and not what they need to hear [2 Peter 2]

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These kind of scriptures make no point, because the other person who believes different can use them in like manner.

Douggg said:

It will not be long until the EU goes to that 10 leader form of Government, as well as having the one leader over everyone in the EU.... a little bit before the 7 years begin..... when the person is the little horn.... not the beast in the beginning.

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Agreed, and this man comes out of Greece according to scriptures. Then comes to power in Europe.

Commander said:

It does fit when you take into consideration that the Jewish war/revolt began in 66 A.D. and ended in 73 A.D. which is seven years(the correct amount of time for the Apocalypse). Nero killed his self by sword in 69 A.D. or 3 1/2 years or 42 months into the Jewish war/revolt. The temple was also destroyed in the year 70 A.D., or 40 years after Jesus spoke of it in Matthew 24:2.

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It is not a "War Revolt" it is a Revolt against God that brought forth the 70 week decree from God, it can not be over until Israel comes to accept the Messiah, then the REVOLT/REBELLION against God will be over, and the 70th Week over. To prove that Daniels 70th week can not have happened I will post part of a thread of mine from disqus.

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression ( 1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion)
2. Make and end of sins ( 2. This is fairly straightforward, sins can only end when the millennial reign starts )
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity ( 3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. )
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness ( This can't happen until Jesus' 1000 Year Millennial Riegn. )
5. To seal up vision and prophecy ( 5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up/finnish )
6. Anoint the most Holy ( This could be the anointing of the Temple, or as I believe, the Anointing of Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords, I won't quibble with either belief. )

All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah s help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

Douggg said:

When Satan is cast down to earth, it means that he will be restricted to earth. No longer having access to heaven making accusations against us every time we sin.

Satan has always had freedom to roam the earth seeking who he can destroy.

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Agreed, no qualms here at all.

Douggg said:

In Revelation 12, the 1260 days in 12:6 is before the war in heaven in 12:7, which is what puts the 1260 days as the first half of the 7 years.

First half
Revelation 11:3 the 1260 days
Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days
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3 1/2 days the two witness's bodies lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem.
They come back to life , ascend to heaven. Followed by the war in heaven and Satan cast down, restricted to earth, a time, times, half times.

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So, what makes you think Rev. 11:2 is the Last 42 Months and Rev. 11:3 is the first 1260 days ? You see how contradictory that is ? I mean I understand there was no chapters and verses, these were added, but this comes right after the other. Now my take using scriptures, I think maybe you will catch this, you seem very intelligent.

Rev. 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. ( These are the 2 Witnesses after the 3 1/2 days laying dead in the streets. )

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. ( Third Woe is the LAST ONE)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. {{ This tells us that the Seventh Angel here is bringing the Seventh and Final Vial/Bowl Judgment, and it happens immediately after the Two Witness are called up to Heaven. We know this is the Final Vial Judgment because it says, that Jesus is taking over these Kingdoms, NOW and shall reign forever !! Amen. }}

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. ( Beast Systems are over, Jesus reigns. )

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. ( We get rewarded, a 1000 years later the Wicked are raised up and Judged, then sent to hell, no doubt. )

Did I make a good enough case to persuade you ? The Witnesses are the last 1260 Days, or CLOSE TO IT, their witness might be out if sync by 15 to 30 days, some have said this is where the 1290 day figure comes from in a few places, These 1260 Day periods can not overlap in full, that is what confuses some, but in essence they do overlap.

Douggg said:

Second half
Revelation 11:2 the 42 months
Revelation 13:5 the 42 months
Daniel 7:25, the time, times, half times
Daniel 12:7, the time, times, half times
Revelation 12:14, the time, times, half times

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I agree with all of these, but the 1260 Days are also the last 3/12 years mentioned, just as the 42 months are, imho, see my reasoning above.

God Bless..........Getting sleepy.

Revealing Times said:

Again, excellent analysis on the woman being Israel, no doubt about this. But after the "Historical" history lesson, basically told only to tell us the Secret of the Woman as being Israel and not the Church. That was the only reason we needed to hear the first five verses, it was a "secret" of God, that Jesus told us in sort of a parable. But the woman (Israel) only flees into the wilderness at the Mid-way point after the Anti-Christ reneges on his Treaty and only after the Anti-Christ is possessed by Satan the 8th King. Why would Israel flee into the Wilderness at the Start of the 7 Year Period ? Jesus told Israel to FLEE into the Wilderness when they saw the Abomination of Desolation, which happens at the 3 1/2 year point, after the Anti-Christ reneges on his Peace Deals.

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And exactly how many Jews read the new testament, or have heard to flee into the wilderness when they see the Abomination of Desolation setup?

Jews have been told about the coming Antichrist for 2000 years - do you know what they say? That there is no mention of an Antichrist in the Tanach (the old testament) and everything in New Testament is irrelavent to Judaism. They say when the "real" messiah shows up - Christianity will fade away as he starts fulfilling all of the things the messiah is supposed to do.

The Antichrist doesn't make a peace deal involving the Jews for 7 years. He will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant - by overseeing the reading of the covenant (the law) to the nation of Israel - which is a requirement Moses made for all future generations, every 7 years to do the commemorative reading. The 7 years is right in the text of Deuteronomy 31:9-13.
in verse 10.

That the Antichrist destroys many by peace is that the Jews will think they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety - but the Antichrist violates the Mt. Sinai covenant by stopping the daily sacrifice and claiming to have achieved God-hood. The Jews will be mortified, and will reject his claim, and his continuing as their king of Israel - for which, the person begins persecuting them, all the way to the day when Jesus returns.

Revealing Times said:

Did I make a good enough case to persuade you ? The Witnesses are the last 1260 Days, or CLOSE TO IT, their witness might be out if sync by 15 to 30 days, some have said this is where the 1290 day figure comes from in a few places, These 1260 Day periods can no overlap in full, that is what confuses some, but in essence the do overlap.

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You are interested obviously in the end times, so I don't knock you for that.

The 1260 days is the first half. It is exactly half of the 2520 days of the 7years. The two witnesses lie dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days. So 1260 days + 3 1/2 days = 1263.5 days. Taking away the 1263.5 days from the 2520 days leaves 1256.5 days in the 7 years. To account for that odd number of days left in the 7 years - the bible refers to that time as 42 months, which in bible prophecy is not exacty 1260 days but a little less.

So for 42 months the beast person is able to rule the world without being hampered by the two witnesses.

It will be impossible for the world to celebrate over the deaths of the two witnesses at the end of the 7 years, given that hailstones 200 lbs in weight will be crushing the cities of the world.

You are misunderstanding the verse 11:15 on "are become". It is not "have become" (as would be the case if at the end of the 7 years). "are become" is signifying a process begun, to take away the kingdoms of this earth from Satan's influence and dominion.

After the two witnesses ascend, and there is an earthquake that kills 7000 and temporarily puts the fear of God in them who were celebrating - the seventh trumpet will blow, which begins a process which the kingdoms of this world are made kingdoms of God and his Christ - beginning with the war in heaven casting Satan and his angels down from their dominion in high places, the second heaven, the cosmos, signifying that Satan's mystical kingdom Babylon the great is fallen is fallen.

Restricted to earth, Satan knows he has but a little time - the time, times, half times - till Jesus returns to earth and he gets cast into the bottomless pit, which he is going to be doing nothing there.

Douggg said:

The first beast in this chapter, is the person who "was" the Antichrist, the King of Israel, instead of Jesus the rightful king, for a short time (forthcoming). When he goes into the temple, claims God-hood, the Jews will reject him as continuing as their king. Thus, with the 42 months left in the 7 years, the person is no longer the Antichrist, but has become the beast.

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I disagree that this Beast is the King of Israel, I think scriptures shows that he has a "Peace Deal" or Covenant with Israel that he Breaks, and all Israel is Aghast/Stunned that he places an Image in the Temple. I agree with most here, but not the King of Israel part.

Douggg said:

Satan possesses neither the beast, nor the false prophet. But incarnates the image of the beast, making the image appear alive, and demanding everyone to worhip.

When Jesus returns in Revelation 19, the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire.

Satan will be exposed and will be chained and cast into the bottomless pit, Revelation 20.

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This is interesting, mostly because of my study on Daniel 9:27. So I will not discount it out of hand, that's not my style, that makes people weak towards Gods truths, I will study it further. The reason this is interesting is, if you study Daniel 9:27 and use the Hebrew concordance, you will see that it basically states that an Image is placed in the Temple, it really doesn't refer to anyone saying in the Temple, I AM GOD, but it says he places an Image/Idol in the Temple, and it (makes Desolate) STUNS/STUPEFIES/Makes Numb, Israel and of course the Abomination is a FILTHY IDOL. So I am with you on this, but I will have to study it further, but I have made that argument to others, that it is an Image in the Temple, not actually a Man saying I am God in the Temple, but that Image does come alive, SO WE ARE CLOSE HERE....But I must study further.

I agree about the devil, Anti-Christ and False Prophet being three entities. Either way, Satan will be the 8th King, no doubt.

Douggg said:

What does the text say? 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

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These are Five that have Fallen...Catch that part ? Kings always represent Kingdoms, how can you be a King without a Kingdom, but EVERY KING COULDN'T FALL, only the Last King could fall, if you had 5 Kingdoms that fell, then you can only have 5 Kings that fell, all the rest NEVER FELL. So you might ask, why was Kingdoms not used instead of Kings here ? Two things, I think the Mountains are Kingdoms that Arose, just like the Heads are Kingdoms, but also, there was a Wicked Ruler/King coming forth the known as the coming Anti-Christ, so Jesus did not want to, imho, confuse us about the Last King being just a Kingdom and not a man. Thus 5 Kings have Fallen, One Is, and one is yet to come, they all had KINGDOMS (that's a given), and Jesus wasn't speaking about many Kings from One Kingdom.

Douggg said:

There is no such mention of a "system" in Revelation. The 7 kings are kings of fourth empire, the Roman Empire. At the time of John, 1st century, five had fallen , one is (number 6), and the other (number 7) not yet come (future of John's time).

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Which means what ? You have to match it up, line upon line, precept upon precept. So lets see if the Beasts of Daniel match up with the Revelation 13 and 17 Beast. I will erase some scriptures that are not relevant to the post for spaces sake.

Daniel 7:4 The first was like a lion, 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, 6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, {{ Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Daniel 7:7.......and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly :was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

{{{ Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: }}}

Then Gabriel reveals the Dream in Further Detail: Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast......
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, (Little Horn/Anti-Christ) and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, (Human) and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

{{ Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. }}..... SO.....In both instances, the Saints were given into his hand for 42 Months or a Time, Times and a 1/2 a Time = 42 Months. This is the Same Beast Systems

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
{{ Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. These are the Exact Same Beasts Systems, to a Tee. }}

Now lets compare Daniel chapter 8 with Daniel chapter 7 and Rev. 13 and 17 and see how it matches up.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. ( This Little Horn comes out of the Fourth Beast, as stated in Daniel 7, but it also arises out of one of the Four Generals Kingdoms, in the Latter Days, as I will show below. So He comes South, East and Towards Israel. A Kingdom from Greece/Europe would conquer towards the South, and East no doubt, and towards Israel so the Anti-Christ/Little Horn arises from Greece/Revived Rome/European Union. )

Daniel 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. { Gabriel or whoever the Angel is here, reveals this dream unto Daniel, and tells him that his Dream is about the Time of the End or End Times, when Gods Bowls of Wrath have become Full (End of Indignation). The word Indignation means Gods Anger at Sin, so if this is to be at the END OF INDIGNATION, it has to be when God is judging the world, and calling Israel back into His Family. For at this time, shall be the END [OF THIS AGE].

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. { So, we understand this is Alexander the Great, conquering Persia, then of course he dies and Four Generals Stand Up in his Place/Stead. But not in his power. }

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. { So, in the LATTER TIME of their Kingdom when the Transgressors are come Full !! Meaning Gods Bowls of Wrath against Transgressions has been Filled Up, and the Vials of this Wrath are about to be Poured out upon a sinful people(s) !! This Fierce king (Anti-Christ) stands up, understanding Dark Sentences (Riddles and conundrums, or how to solve complex issues via Satan no Doubt. This is the Anti-Christ Little Horn of Daniel 7, Rev. 13 and Rev. 17. They are all the same person. As is Daniel 9 and Daniel 11.}

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. { He derives his power from the Dragon (Rev 13:2...and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.) he will destroy, so says the Seals or Four Horses. And he will come after the Holy People, of course. (Rev. 12 and 13)

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. { Lets see, policy in Hebrew or the word sekel 7922, means 1) prudence, insight, understanding, cunning, craft, So, he gains power through cunning and craft, and prospers. He desires to be worshiped as GOD !! Meaning he magnifies his own self worth !! By Peace he will destroy many, meaning he comes to power via Peace, not War, but once he gets these dictatorial powers, he reneges on his promises and seeks to make all Worship him, and thus he will seek to Destroy all Religions, save the Worship of Himself the Beast. BUT.........He will come against the Prince (Jesus) of princes, and will be broken without hand (By the Holy Spirit) just like Daniel 2 Says, the Rock (Jesus) will be hewn out of the mountain, without Hands, and will destroy the Statue. Or just as Rev. 19 says, Satan will be destroyed by the Sword of His Mouth (Holy Spirit) Rev. 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth. Or just as 2 Thessalonians 2:8 says...And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


The Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8 is the very same Beast as in Revelation 13 and 17. Jesus gave John this verbiage of the Old Testament so we would understand that. This Little Horn with his Ten Horns, are the Last Beast System, or Seventh Head on the Beast that arises out of the Sea.

Here is another clue God has given me recently, that used to puzzle me. I think it confuses many, it used to confuse me.

When Daniel was dreaming about the Four Beasts or Four plus one at the end, He saw the first three, then the Fourth one, then the Little Horn that rose up out of the Fourth Beast at the End....But check this out............

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. ( See it ? This is the Last 10 Kings that arise with the Anti-Christ, no doubt. But we have to go further to catch the understanding. )

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. ( Anti-Christ no doubt...But further we must Go. )

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. ( Jesus Rules, the Thrones have all been CAST DOWN. Amen......But not yet..........Further we must go. )

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. ( Saints in Heaven no doubt...NOW.. )

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. ( The Anti-Christ/Little Horn will be destroyed, and placed in Hell, Rev. 20:10, but Satan will be bound for a 1000 years. But the very next verse is what confuses many, and causes many to come to bad conclusions, when it should be easy for us to grasp. I think these secrets were just locked up by God until these latter days.)

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. ( As concerning the rest of the Beasts, they had their Dominion taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a Season and a Time. CATCH THAT DEEP TRUTH ? Only the Anti-Christ Kingdom is Destroyed IMMEDIATELY, and he is cast into Fire, right then, with the False Prophet, because from this point on, Christ Jesus will reign, for ever and ever, AMEN.....But....The other Kingdoms/Beasts did not lose their Kingdoms IMMEDIATELY !! When they were conquered, their lives were prolonged for a season and time, most of these Kingdoms survived as a conquered Kingdom of peoples, or some regained a minor Kingdom status, but they were not Destroyed Immediately like the Anti-Christ and the Last Beast System will be.

victorinus said:

I am sorry I can't address all of the posts here -
I will continue to read them and answer what I can -
these posts are a good sample of all the different interpretations of the apocalypse-
there are so many and I have looked at many of them in my extensive reading -
my main reason for starting this research was because some were referring to the church as babylon the great -
I wanted to show there was another answer

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Wow, that is kind of crazy, I just so happened to have written an article/thread on who The Great Harlot of Rev. 17 is and who Babylon of Rev. 18 is, (Yesterday) but I didn't want to get off topic. If you are interested I could give you a link, if that's allowed, or I could post it here, but I didn't want to take your thread into an area you had not intended.

God Bless brother, great thread here.....