the apocalypse

[Straightshot]

Just plug them in .... the first beast and his relationship with the second

The first beast [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 13:13; 16:1-16; 17:8-18; 19:19-21]

You do this and then ask me further questions on the fit

 

[Douggg]

chapter 17 clearly shows the ten horns on the second beast

The beast described in Revelation 17:3 coincides with the first beast of Revelation 13:1.


There are two beasts in Revelation 13.

The text has the 7 heads and ten horns on the first beast.
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


The second beast had two small horns like a lamb.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

 

[Commander]

books used in my research
-
Angold, Michael ”Byzantium” St. Martin's Press
Armstrong, Karen ”Islam - A Short History” Modern Library
Aune, David ”Revelation”
Baur, Chrysostomus ”John Chrysostom and His Time”
Beale, G ”The Book of Revelation”
Beckwith, ”Apocalyse of John”
Butler, Daniel ”The First Jihad” Casemate Publishers
Byron, Robert ”The Byzantine Achievement”
Capponi, Niccolo "Victory of The West" Da Capo Press
Charles, R ”Studies in the Apocalypse” Wipf and Stock Publishers
Durant, Will ”Caesar and Christ” MJF Books
Emmerson, Richard ”The Apocalypse in the Middle Ages” Cornell
Esposito, John ”The Oxford History of Islam” Oxford University Press
Finkel, Caroline ”Osman's Dream” Perseus Books Group
Ford, Josephine ”Revelation”
Freely, John ”Istanbul - The Imperial City” Viking - Penguin Books USA
Fregosi, Paul ”Jihad in the West” Prometheus Books
Gibbon, Edward ”The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”
Glubb, John ”A Short History of the Arab Peoples” Dorset Press
Grant, Michael ”The Roman Emperors” Barnes & Noble
Gregg, Steve ”Revelation - Four Views” Thomas Nelson Publishers
Gwynn, John ”The Apocalypse of St. John” APA - Philo Press Amsterdam
Haldon, J ”Byzantium in the Seventh Century”
Harris, Jonathan "Constantinople: Capital of Byzantium" Hambledon Continuum
Haussig, H ”A History of Byzantine Civilization”
Herrin, Judith ”Byzantium” Princeton University Press
Holland, Tom "In the Shadow of the Sword" Doubleday
Hopkins, T. C. F. ”Empires, Wars, and Battles” Tom Doherty Associates
Kaegi, Walter ”Army, Society and Religion in Byzantium”
Kaegi, Walter ”Byzantium and the early Islam conquests” Cambridge
Krey, Philip ”Nicholas of Lyra's Apocalypse Commentary”
Lecky, William ”History of European Morals”
Lewis, Bernard ”The Crisis of Islam” Modern Library
Lewis, David Levering "God's Crucible" W W Norton
Maier, Paul ”Eusebius - The Church History” Kregel Publications
Mango, Cyril ”The Oxford History of Byzantium” Oxford University Press
Mazower, Mark "The Balkans - A Short History" Modern Library
Miceli, Vincent ”The Antichrist” Roman Catholic Books
Norwich, John ”Byzantium - The Early Centuries” Alfred A. Knopf
Norwich, John “Byzantium - A Short History of - Alfred A. Knopf
O'Shea, Stephen ”Sea of Faith” Walker and Company
Ostrogorsky, George ”History of the Byzantine State” Rutgers Univ Press
Pagden, Anthony ”Worlds at War” Random House
Palmer, Andrew ”The Seventh Century in the West-Syrian Chronicles”
Payne, Robert ”The History of Islam” Dorset Press
Pipes, Daniel ”Militant Islam Reaches America” W. W. Norton & Company
Regan, Geoffrey ”First Crusader - Byzantium's Holy Wars”
Reston, James "Defenders of the Faith"
Ross, Daveed ”My Year Inside Radical Islam” Penguin
Schatkin, Margaret ”Saint John Chrysostom - Apologist”
Thompson, Leonard ”The Book of Revelation” Oxford University Press
Treadgold, Warren ”A History of the Byzantine State and Society”
Weinrich, Willliam ”Revelation, Ancient Christian Commentary”
Wells, Colin "Sailing from Byzantium" Delacorte Press
Worth, Roland ”The Seven Cities of the Apocalypse and Greco-Asian”

You should read my book-Barry Dennis "The Saviour of All Men" Tate Publishing.

 

[shelley1952]

As shown throughout history,
constantine and those with him were a much much bigger and ongoing through today threat and caused more damage to Christianity than communism and islam together ever were or did(so far).

Just a few days ago I was messing around online looking up some things and came across a video put together by different scholars that said that they have studied the scrolls and pieces of them that came out of the caves for years and years and they said they can prove that by the scriptures that were found that predated the time of Constantine that he nor his people changed the scripture like people are trying to say. Now I am not here to argue anything but just saying what I just saw on that video because one of my friends husband is a Messianic Jew and thats what he is always saying that none of our Bibles are correct. I dont know how he believes or what he studies because he is taking an online Biblical schooling of some kind but since he thinks all Bibles are corrupt I dont know what he is studying.
As far as what victorinus originally posted, I must say in all my years of being a believer I have never read such a bunch of crap but hey, if thats what he wants to believe, then thats up to him.
Remember I am just saying what I heard.

 

[Straightshot]

"A tree is known by it's fruit. All he did was make Christianity popular and less ostracized by paganizing it."

Exactly .... this was his strategy

 

[victorinus]

A tree is known by it's fruit. All he did was make Christianity popular and less ostracized by paganizing it. It's kind of like what Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar have done with their brand of "Christianity": change it into something more palatable to the masses and watch the money come rolling in.

it takes money to build churches, schools, and hospitals -
have you used them?

 

[Douggg]

"What is the seven crowns upon the heads telling you?"


That these 7 kingdoms belong to the beast .... he is the angelic king of the abyss doing Satan's bidding on the earth ruling over the 7 human kingdoms and the related king positions

sorry, no. The seven heads are seven kings. That there are crowns upon the seven heads in Chapter 12 indicates that with 7 years left before Jesus's return, king #7 has come to power, completing the prophecy of the 7 kings in Revelation 17.

The little horn has come to power, and the 7 years are about to begin, beginning with the start of the testimony of the two witnesses, the 1260 days of their testimony in Revelation 12:6.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

it takes money to build churches, schools, and hospitals -
have you used them?

so money is god for some.

 

[victorinus]

As far as what victorinus originally posted, I must say in all my years of being a believer I have never read such a bunch of crap but hey, if thats what he wants to believe, then thats up to him.

is that what you heard?

 

[Straightshot]

"Now I am not here to argue anything but just saying what I just saw on that video because one of my friends husband is a Messianic Jew and thats what he is always saying that none of our Bibles are correct."


Believe that the Bible is 100% accurate

You are listening to a Hebraic Roots corrupter .... this messianic movement denies the NT, teaches Judiasm, and the return to law keeping .... this is a religious cult movement that is prevalent not only among those of Israel, but even Gentiles .... the false rabbis of the movements are Judaizers

 

[Commander]

The beast described in Revelation 17:3 coincides with the first beast of Revelation 13:1.


There are two beasts in Revelation 13.

The text has the 7 heads and ten horns on the first beast.
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


The second beast had two small horns like a lamb.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

The eighth Emperor of the whole Roman Empire was Vespasian. Between Nero and Vespasian was Galba and Othelo, they ruled a split Roman Empire. These combined, add up to the ten horns. The seven heads are the mountains that Rome was built upon.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE "shelley1952, post: 70009965, member: 387254"]Just a few days ago I was messing around online looking up some things and came across a video put together by different scholars that said that they have studied the scrolls and pieces of them that came out of the caves for years and years and they said they can prove that by the scriptures that were found that predated the time of Constantine that he nor his people changed the scripture like people are trying to say. Now I am not here to argue anything but just saying what I just saw on that video because one of my friends husband is a Messianic Jew and thats what he is always saying that none of our Bibles are correct. I dont know how he believes or what he studies because he is taking an online Biblical schooling of some kind but since he thinks all Bibles are corrupt I dont know what he is studying.
As far as what victorinus originally posted, I must say in all my years of being a believer I have never read such a bunch of crap but hey, if thats what he wants to believe, then thats up to him.
Remember I am just saying what I heard. QUOTE

... Not bad, not bad..... (have to follow up elsewhere or pm) ...
the errors in all the english bibles are usually NEVER admitted in most churches, (and scholars are of no practical use, as Jesus says also)...
and no, the errors of translation DO NOT prevent someone from seeking Yhwh nor from following JESUS.
It's just if someone DOESN'T READ THE BIBLE THEM-SELF, but trusts someone else that contradicts the Bible every day, then they have a problem.

 

[victorinus]

The eighth Emperor of the whole Roman Empire was Vespasian. Between Nero and Vespasian was Galba and Othelo, they ruled a split Roman Empire. These combined, add up to the ten horns. The seven heads are the mountains that Rome was built upon.

and there are seven kings per rev 17:10

 

[Straightshot]

"The eighth Emperor of the whole Roman Empire was Vespasian. Between Nero and Vespasian was Galba and Othelo, they ruled a split Roman Empire. These combined, add up to the ten horns. The seven heads are the mountains that Rome was built upon"


None of these named above are contained in any prophetic vision of the Bible prophets

Neither are the 7 kingdoms, the hills of Rome ... for example: of the 7, 5 have fallen, 1 is, and the t is yet to come .... this does not describe 7 hills

In fact, the ancient Roman Empire is not seen at all in prophetic scripture

This idea was all speculated into the breach between the ending of the 69th week decreed for Israel and beginning of the 70th .... all contrived by the reformers and the later reconstruction movements

If you want to know why I will show you

Ask me questions

 

[Waterwerx]

it takes money to build churches, schools, and hospitals -
have you used them?

You don't water down or change doctrine to make Christianity "more acceptable" to people for the sake of lining your pockets with their money.
Please go!

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

Many have and do ....making merchandise of people by telling them what they want to hear and not what they need to hear [2 Peter 2]

 

[Douggg]

The eighth Emperor of the whole Roman Empire was Vespasian. Between Nero and Vespasian was Galba and Othelo, they ruled a split Roman Empire. These combined, add up to the ten horns. The seven heads are the mountains that Rome was built upon.

I don't have any disagreement with the seven heads being the mountains that Rome was built upon.

But regarding the heads also representing 7 kings - those kings of one family, the Julio-Claudians. Nero was the last of that family. After Nero, the next dynasty was the Flavians.

Your point of adding the three king of Galba and Othelo and Vespasian to get ten kings (the ten horns) will not fit because the ten kings don't have there crowns until Revelation 13, with 42 months to go before Jesus returns.

The 7 kings and the 10 kings are a completely separate set of kings. The 7 kings are sequential, that is, one follows the other.

The ten kings rule with the beast for one hour, which is the 42 months in Revelation 13. Those ten king are associated with the Roman Empire, but of the end times.

It will not be long until the EU goes to that 10 leader form of Government, as well as having the one leader over everyone in the EU.... a little bit before the 7 years begin..... when the person is the little horn.... not the beast in the beginning.

 

[Commander]

I don't have any disagreement with the seven heads being the mountains that Rome was built upon.

But regarding the heads also representing 7 kings - those kings of one family, the Julio-Claudians. Nero was the last of that family. After Nero, the next dynasty was the Flavians.

Your point of adding the three king of Galba and Othelo and Vespasian to get ten kings (the ten horns) will not fit because the ten kings don't have there crowns until Revelation 13, with 42 months to go before Jesus returns.

The 7 kings and the 10 kings are a completely separate set of kings. The 7 kings are sequential, that is, one follows the other.

The ten kings rule with the beast for one hour, which is the 42 months in Revelation 13. Those ten king are associated with the Roman Empire, but of the end times.

It will not be long until the EU goes to that 10 leader form of Government, as well as having the one leader over everyone in the EU.... a little bit before the 7 years begin..... when the person is the little horn.... not the beast in the beginning.

It does fit when you take into consideration that the Jewish war/revolt began in 66 A.D. and ended in 73 A.D. which is seven years(the correct amount of time for the Apocalypse). Nero killed his self by sword in 69 A.D. or 3 1/2 years or 42 months into the Jewish war/revolt. The temple was also destroyed in the year 70 A.D., or 40 years after Jesus spoke of it in Matthew 24:2.

 

[Douggg]

It does fit when you take into consideration that the Jewish war/revolt began in 66 A.D. and ended in 73 A.D. which is seven years(the correct amount of time for the Apocalypse). Nero killed his self by sword in 69 A.D. or 3 1/2 years or 42 months into the Jewish war/revolt. The temple was also destroyed in the year 70 A.D., or 40 years after Jesus spoke of it in Matthew 24:2.

The seven years is not just a block of time. The confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is forthcoming and is actually a requirement in the bible, in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, that Moses made it a requirement that the covenant (the law) be read to the nation of Israel, every 7 years, that the land of Israel belongs to them forever. Part of that requirement is that it is to be read from the place of God's choosing.

I have discussed this requirement with the Jews (Judaism)_themselves. And they say the place of God's choosing is the temple mount. Which of course the muslims will never allow to happen. Which it will not be until right after Gog/Magog, then the confirming of the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years will take place to begin the 7 years.

7 years later, Armageddon takes place, and the feast on the dead bodies in Revelation 19:17-18, corresponding to the Armaggedon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20, will take place,

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Ezekiel 39:17-20
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

 

[Revealing Times]

babylon the great - constantinople -
rider of the white horse - constantine -
rider of the red horse - mohammed -
rider of the black horse - marx -
the first beast - the roman empire -
the second beast - islam -
the seven heads - the seven dynasties of the roman empire -
the ten horns - the ten islamic dynasties -
the thousand years - the byzantine empire -
the three johns - john the baptist and two more johns -
the two witnesses - church and state -
-
this is twenty years of research -
will discuss the results -
will present the books used -
looking forward to discussing all aspects of the apocalypse -
I chose not to use the Historicist Only tag because I want to include all in this dialogue

Babylon is a Beast System, and the End TIME one Represents the Last Beast System. Or Revived Rome.
White Horse is the Anti-Christ/Fake Christ.
Red Horse is the Anti-Christ bringing war and taking away Peace.
Black Horse is Judgment against the Nations
The Pale Green Horse is the Death and destruction brought about by the Anti-Christ.
First Beast = Babylon
Second Beast = Persia
Seven Heads = Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and Revived Rome/Ten Kings and the Anti-Christ.
The Ten Horns/Kings are 10 European Kings who give their power to the Anti-Christ who arises out of the Fourth Beast.
Thousand Years is Christ Reign on Earth.
Three Johns ????? I have no clue what you are speaking of.
The Two Witnesses are Two Servants of God, Elijah will probably be one of them, and the Pray down he Plagues of God on the World or Final Beast System.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The 8th King is Satan, he was, is not, yet is, and goes into perdition. He will be cast down to earth at the 3 1/2 year mark, then will possesses the Anti-Christ (7th King) and he becomes the 8th King.

it does work if you buy into the three johns who wrote the apocalypse - it is a long story but I will get to it

So you have to have 3 Johns for this theory to "work: hey. But Jesus is the Author of Revelation, John only wrote down what Jesus gave him. Why would Jesus need 3 people to transcribe his Revelation ? The very first verse in Revelation pretty much discounts this theory: Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: One John, not Johns as in Three.

are you saying the first beast was mortally wounded with the seventh king? name the beast, that is all you have to do

The First "Beast" is the Anti-Christ.
The Second Beast is the False Prophet.
Both are men, the first beast gets possessed by Satan, so I would imagine the second beast does also by some powerful demon.