The Age of the Universe

I've never seen one way in which the natural world and history debunks the bible, Rygaku.

birdman5413 said:

The truth is in the Bible no matter what we humans say or think!

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I'll gladly disagree to that. For one the natural world and history really does bunk the bible in so many ways.

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BUT we all know the faster you travel, the slower time is. So while from our perspective it took 1 year for light to travel 6 trillion miles, for the light, it took CONSIDERABLY less.


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Actually for light, according to Einstein, it would take no time at all. The other way to look at it is space dilation in which case the light is everywhere at once.

Doveaman said:

Why do scientists maintain that the universe is only 13.8 billion years old even though objects can be observed to be 46 billion light years away?

You will notice that I did not ask why objects can be observed to be 46 billion light years away.

I am asking why scientists maintain that the universe is only 13.8 billion years old.

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The age of the earth has only been PROVEN to be a few hundred thousand years old by direct measurement of layers of ice (Greenland Ice Core tests and others like it around the world)....so the rest of the "added years" is educated best guesses based on good math and reason and deduction BUT is still NOT direct proof. I also know that the classic evolutionary view of origins has caused the scientific community over the past approximately 100 years to continue looking for ways to explain an older and older universe to try and "find enough time" for the evolutionary hypothesis to be "realistic" and that is why the universe seemed to keep getting older and older with every passing decade over the past 100 years or so. But you see, the reality is...those numbers were "driven by" this DESIRE to try and convince the world that given enough TIME then perhaps Darwin's original theory (a terribly weak and very flawed theory) MIGHT be correct! Well...turns out its NOT. And its NOT correct based upon two strong pieces of evidence. 1. Biology does not work that way: www.EvoGenesis.com and 2. There has been AT LEAST 3 known ELE events (extinction level events) in earth's geologic history and THAT means that the so-called "miracle of evolution" would have had to start over 3 separate times!! Yep, sorry...but ALL LIFE FORMS (except perhaps Bacteria) were KILLED AGAIN only about 12,800+ years ago during the Younger-Dryas event (www.kjvBible.org) (www.gaptheoryofcreation.com). And btw: don't let them "fool you" ("them" being secular scientists) into thinking ANYTHING survived the event; it did not. Younger-Dryas left the earth "null and void and darkness upon the face of the deep (space)" which is vs.2 of Genesis chapter 1 and this is when God comes back to the earth to RESTORE the earth in 6 literal 24 hour periods of time....He did NOT create the earth for the first time in Genesis chapter 1...He RESTORED it. The earth and universe were created LONG BEFORE that....at LEAST a few 100 thousand years if not millions of years BEFORE vs. 2 of Genesis chapter 1 begins (I don't personally believe the BILLIONS of years numbers). Vs. 1 and Vs. 2 are NOT CONNECTED in time....they are SEPARATED by a VERY LONG period of time, and THAT's why the creation events of chapter 1 don't fit the modern geological sciences...because it wasn't MEANT TO. The earth is at LEAST a few 100 thousand years old, but modern man (humankind) "made in God's image" starting with Adam & Eve is only about 6,000 years old. But there was a previous "world" on the face of earth LONG BEFORE Adam & Eve were ever created/made. This view is held by well-over 50 Biblical scholars...some of whom are some of the MOST influential Biblical scholars in the world and this view is believed by many today and goes back to ancient times: http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/chap1.html

Doveaman said:

Why do scientists maintain that the universe is only 13.8 billion years old even though objects can be observed to be 46 billion light years away?

You will notice that I did not ask why objects can be observed to be 46 billion light years away.

I am asking why scientists maintain that the universe is only 13.8 billion years old.

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The age of the Universe cannot be determined by measuring distances, because:

1. Light speeds up by 200x & slows down to a stand still, depending on the types of gases & temperature of the gases light passes through.
2. Also the velocity of light is affected by variations in gravity. More Gravity = More Time. Less Gravity = Less Time.
3. Finally, we cannot accurately measure distances of objects outside our solar system, due to insufficient parallax shift. Even from opposite ends of our orbit around the sun, our view is far too narrow, to calculate such large distances based on triangulation.

So light from the furthest galaxies, may be traveling far faster than we ever expected; since there is no gravity in intergalactic space. Also those galaxies themselves may not be as far or even as big as we assume, with our triangulation methods.

Doveaman said:

Why do scientists maintain that the universe is only 13.8 billion years old even though objects can be observed to be 46 billion light years away?

You will notice that I did not ask why objects can be observed to be 46 billion light years away.

I am asking why scientists maintain that the universe is only 13.8 billion years old.

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That 46 billion number comes from calculations based on the expansion rate of the universe. The universe is expanding at a faster and faster rate. So basically, at the rate the universe is expanding, it would take 13.5 billion years for the stars to travel 46 billion light years. The light we see came from stars that were say 10 billion light years away. But it took so long for that light to reach us that by now, those stars are much, MUCH farther away than they were. That is my understanding at least.

SpiritRehab said:

The age of the Universe cannot be determined by measuring distances, because:

1. Light speeds up by 200x & slows down to a stand still, depending on the types of gases & temperature of the gases light passes through.
2. Also the velocity of light is affected by variations in gravity. More Gravity = More Time. Less Gravity = Less Time.
3. Finally, we cannot accurately measure distances of objects outside our solar system, due to insufficient parallax shift. Even from opposite ends of our orbit around the sun, our view is far too narrow, to calculate such large distances based on triangulation.

So light from the furthest galaxies, may be traveling far faster than we ever expected; since there is no gravity in intergalactic space. Also those galaxies themselves may not be as far or even as big as we assume, with our triangulation methods.

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Interesting. I didn't know that gravity had that much of an effect on the speed of light. Can I have sources?

99terabytes said:

I've never seen one way in which the natural world and history debunks the bible, Rygaku.

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It would be for the fact that Pontius Pilate never meet a person named jesus if he had it would have been documented outside of the bible. They flood myth none of us should even be here on different countries we should technically be in the middle east. Even the birth of jesus is questionable at best questionable because that story was written after that fact of his death. And it is questionable at best like how did these people know about jesus if they never met the person and even knew how he died and even better how did they know his mother was mary. The other part would be the ressurection how do the writers know he came back to life. Doing a little research on crucifixion people were on T bars not something like the cross you see today, if you want to be historically correct this is what the cross should look like for christianity. Even then its questionable what if he never died at all. He could have been lucky enough to live through all of that then got up went were
he needed to go live his message and left.

KenBrace said:

Interesting. I didn't know that gravity had that much of an effect on the speed of light. Can I have sources?

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If you want a good example light cannot escape a black hole.

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/blackhole/blackhole.html

99terabytes said:

I've never seen one way in which the natural world and history debunks the bible, Rygaku.

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Well that depends on whether or not you take the Bible literally. If you think that 6 day creation was a symbolic story then science doesn't debunk the Bible. If you believe that the creation was literally 6 days then it does debunk the Bible.

Rygaku said:

If you want a good example light cannot escape a black hole.

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/blackhole/blackhole.html

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Thanks for the source.

But scientists have accounted for this have they not? I'm sure they would have included that in their calculations. After all, it's what they use to show that the universe is expanding.

Goonie said:

I get the feeling I am going to need to go and get a degree in astrophysics to answer this. all I can say is that the majority of physicists are in agreement on this figure, which is nothing more than an argument from authority.

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Actually, it's not a "fallacious" argument from authority. If you're referring to the consensus of experts in a relevant field, that's not fallacious reasoning. For example, if five out of five dentists agree some procedure is good for your teeth, you have good reason to believe their opinion.

A fallacious appeal to authority is when you round up five people with PhD's and believe what they have to say about biology, even though their PhD's are all in astrophysics.

The universe is not as old as the farthest star is from us. God placed all of the stars where he wanted them to be all at ones. They were immortal. Satan made the stars mortal have the universe be like it is today. Allah is the one who did that. Allah is Lucifer who made the galaxies to look like they have smoke in them. Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV) 16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth. God did not make the stars to look like rosy paint. God did not make the galaxies look like they had smoke in them. God carefully placed - set them where he wanted them to be. Lucifer wants to stand on the earth trying to fool people into thinking he is God.

Why do scientists maintain that the universe is only 13.8 billion years old even though objects can be observed to be 46 billion light years away?

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The short answer is that they can't - the furthest objects (kind-of) that can be observed are a little short of 13.8 billion light-years away. But they can only see where these were 13.8 billion years ago, as it takes light that long to travel the distance. Scientists then calculate that those objects could be up to something like 46 billion light-years away now, which is a different matter.

birdman5413 said:

The truth is in the Bible no matter what we humans say or think!

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If for the sake of argument the truth is in the bible,

I would argue that we humans keep misinterpreting the bible time and time again just like we did when we insisted that the Earth was the center of the universe according to "the bible"..

artiewhitefox said:

The universe is not as old as the farthest star is from us. God placed all of the stars where he wanted them to be all at ones. They were immortal. Satan made the stars mortal have the universe be like it is today. Allah is the one who did that. Allah is Lucifer who made the galaxies to look like they have smoke in them. Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV) 16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth. God did not make the stars to look like rosy paint. God did not make the galaxies look like they had smoke in them. God carefully placed - set them where he wanted them to be. Lucifer wants to stand on the earth trying to fool people into thinking he is God.

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Eh...?



This is pretty much a anatomy of a star. The Sun is a main-sequence star, and thus generates its energy by nuclear fusion of hydrogen nuclei into helium. In its core, the Sun fuses 620 million metric tons of hydrogen each second. Binding energy. When the sun runs out of fuel the core collapses causing a super nova. If the star in question is big enough the core collapses on itself creating a black hole or the best case scenario a white dwarf star.

Not quite. A star the size of our Sun will only go nova; a supernova happens when a star quite a bit bigger than our Sun cooks off. There are a couple of exceptions to this but our Sun is not one of the exceptions.

Doveaman said:

It's only simple if you can make sense of it.

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As serious pointed out, it's a *calculated* number that is based upon a host of assumptions related to redshift being caused by 'space expansion/acceleration".

By making 'space' do the magical expansion thing, rather than claiming that objects are actually *moving*, they are no longer limited in terms of expansion speed by the speed of light. In their claim, it's not the objects that actually move, is a magical thing called "space" between them that's magically moving. That's how they get a universe that is larger than 2 x the speed of light in terms of it's diameter.

KenBrace said:

Well that depends on whether or not you take the Bible literally. If you think that 6 day creation was a symbolic story then science doesn't debunk the Bible. If you believe that the creation was literally 6 days then it does debunk the Bible.



Thanks for the source.

But scientists have accounted for this have they not? I'm sure they would have included that in their calculations. After all, it's what they use to show that the universe is expanding.

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For expansion look up Red Shift here is a link to it.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science...le-topic/big-bang-expansion-topic/v/red-shift

The universe is not as old as the farthest stars from our planet. God placed all of stars in the universe at the same time. They were immortal at one point in time. They became mortal when people accepted the fallen angel Lucifer. That is who Muhammad saw in the cave. Satan AKA Lucifer AKA Allah made the stars devour themselves. “Al-Mumit” is one of Allah’s 99 Names. The meaning of Al-Mumit is “The Destroyer, The Bringer of Death” God did not do blow up anything. Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV) 16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth. God did not make the stars to look like rosy paint. God did not make the galaxies look like they had smoke in them. God carefully placed - set them where he wanted them to be.

Admiral_Kang said:

Not quite. A star the size of our Sun will only go nova; a supernova happens when a star quite a bit bigger than our Sun cooks off. There are a couple of exceptions to this but our Sun is not one of the exceptions.

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I was just giving a example to someone who said that god created the stars to last forever in which they don't