There was death before Adam and Eve. The death that the Bible talks about is spiritual death, not physical death.
Adam and Eve is an allegory, not a work of fiction.
Adam and Eve is an allegory, not a work of fiction.
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The Age of the Universe--and Days of Creation
- Thread starter Sinai
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Athlon4all: Definately number 2. When god says 6 days he means 6 days, and I don't ignore any true scientific evidence, yes the Bible is the first authority, but true scientific evidence fits it. In any case, any "evidence" can be twisted to fit one's bias, so its a mute point to debate evidence. There is no other view than 2 that fully fits the Bible's plan of salvation, the fall, etc.
Sinai: Thank you for posting, Athlon. There are a number of Bible scholars who, like you, prefer the second theory listed at the beginning of this thread. However, there are probably just as many Bible scholars who prefer theories 3, 4 or 5. In other words, any of the four can be supported by the Bible. Thus, I am not sure I understand why you say that "There is no other view than 2 that fully fits the Bible's plan of salvation, the fall, etc. " Please explain your reasoning on these points. Thank you.
Athlon4all: Well any other scholar who does not believe in #2 is very off base....If it isn't believed, then many questions come up. Like, why have hope for a better life when there has always been death on destruction? Why do we need a Savior if we all aren't all desendants of Adam and thus under the curse of Adam that all are sinners? And there's so many more.
seebs: Athlon: "death" is also a concept that applies to us spiritually. When we are told that we get "eternal life", I think it's pretty clear that this doesn't mean we never physically die. Why would we need a savior? Because we are sinful! I don't really know exactly what the story of the "curse" means - but I'm quite sure that I can believe in the observable reality that we *are* sinners, and I don't need to know everything.
Athlon4all: When I said death, I mean that there was no physical death until the fall and there was no sin on earth either. There should not be death and suffering before the fall (which is after Man was created) and Evolution says that there has always been death and destruction.
Sinai: I can understand how it might not be possible for there to be any sin until a creature capable of sinning--i.e., a human being with a soul--had been created. However, you may need to explain more carefully why you think that unless and until such a creature with a soul finally sinned, nothing else on the planet could die.
Over two months has elapsed since Athlon's last post. When it became clear that he was apparently not going to answer, I invited others to join in the discussion and answer the question posed to Athlon: "Why do you think there could not have been any physical death of any plant or animal on our planet prior to the sins of Adam and Eve?"
Several persons who are apparently not young earth creationists have answered, but thus far no young earth creationist has explained this position. If you think there could not have been any physical death of any plant or animal on our planet prior to the sins of Adam and Eve, whould you please share your reasons? Thank you.
Sinai: Thank you for posting, Athlon. There are a number of Bible scholars who, like you, prefer the second theory listed at the beginning of this thread. However, there are probably just as many Bible scholars who prefer theories 3, 4 or 5. In other words, any of the four can be supported by the Bible. Thus, I am not sure I understand why you say that "There is no other view than 2 that fully fits the Bible's plan of salvation, the fall, etc. " Please explain your reasoning on these points. Thank you.
Athlon4all: Well any other scholar who does not believe in #2 is very off base....If it isn't believed, then many questions come up. Like, why have hope for a better life when there has always been death on destruction? Why do we need a Savior if we all aren't all desendants of Adam and thus under the curse of Adam that all are sinners? And there's so many more.
seebs: Athlon: "death" is also a concept that applies to us spiritually. When we are told that we get "eternal life", I think it's pretty clear that this doesn't mean we never physically die. Why would we need a savior? Because we are sinful! I don't really know exactly what the story of the "curse" means - but I'm quite sure that I can believe in the observable reality that we *are* sinners, and I don't need to know everything.
Athlon4all: When I said death, I mean that there was no physical death until the fall and there was no sin on earth either. There should not be death and suffering before the fall (which is after Man was created) and Evolution says that there has always been death and destruction.
Sinai: I can understand how it might not be possible for there to be any sin until a creature capable of sinning--i.e., a human being with a soul--had been created. However, you may need to explain more carefully why you think that unless and until such a creature with a soul finally sinned, nothing else on the planet could die.
Over two months has elapsed since Athlon's last post. When it became clear that he was apparently not going to answer, I invited others to join in the discussion and answer the question posed to Athlon: "Why do you think there could not have been any physical death of any plant or animal on our planet prior to the sins of Adam and Eve?"
Several persons who are apparently not young earth creationists have answered, but thus far no young earth creationist has explained this position. If you think there could not have been any physical death of any plant or animal on our planet prior to the sins of Adam and Eve, whould you please share your reasons? Thank you.
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excreationist
Former Believer
So you're saying that the things in the story are symbols which represent other things. What about the genealogies in Genesis which involve long lifespans? (see this site) Do all of those sets of numbers symbolise anything at all? (assuming that they aren't literal ages)
What about parts in the Adam and Eve story, such as these?
Well according to AiG, snakes purposely and deliberately lick and eat dust. AiG also brings up Micah 7:17 which talks about some people "licking dust like a serpent". So are you saying that a literal snake wasn't involved? And what do verses 14 and 15 mean? Note it says "your descendents and her descendents will be enemies"... if the snake is just Satan, I guess Satan had kids...
Is this bit literal?
It sounds like death is a new concept to Adam since here God is explaining death to him. Also, do you think that thorns existed before Adam?
If you look at this list of Bible genealogies you can see that Adam would have been created *less* than 6000 years ago... wouldn't there have been other people living on the earth? Or were Adam and Eve the first humans?
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excreationist
Former Believer
According to the Bible's genealogies, Adam would have been created *less* than 6000 years ago. And if the days are literal days then the earth would also be less than 6000 years old.
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excreationist
Former Believer
Well I used to be a young-earth creationist....
Here's some ideas...
1) In Genesis and Revelation 22, those who eat of the tree of life can live eternally on earth. If you read Genesis 3:22-24 it seems that reason people die now is because God prevented people having access to the tree of life. If the purpose of the tree of life isn't to prevent death then what is its purpose? To prevent spiritual death? I thought you'd just need to love God to prevent spiritual death - not eat some fruit.
2) Genesis 1:31 says that God's creation was very good (other translations say he was very pleased with it). I thought death and suffering, etc, isn't very good. Deuteronomy 32:4 says God's work is perfect.
3) Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."
If that death is only spiritual, then maybe the resurrection is only from spiritual death and there is no afterlife! I thought Paul would precise in his language.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 - "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
This is saying that Jesus will raise people from death *in the future* - i.e. it is talking about literal death and resurrection.
4) Romans 8:22-23 - "For we know that up to the present time all of creation groans with pain, like the pain of childbirth. But it is not just creation alone which groans; we who have the Spirit as the first of God's gifts also groan within ourselves as we wait for God to make us his children and set our whole being free."
So some aspects of nature are cursed - e.g. maybe animals are mortal.
5) In Genesis 1:29 God says that the people can eat grain and fruit and in verse 30 it says the wild animals and birds can eat grass and leafy plants.... it seems that everyone is a vegetarian! (i.e. nothing another animal for food) But after Adam and Eve sinned, God killed some animals to make clothes for them and Abel kept sheep - for food.
BTW, who said there was no death for plants? They apparently don't have the special god-breathed life that animals do.
Anyway, I think having no human death before Adam and Eve (less than 6000 years ago) is the main thing. The absence of animal death would have a little less support.
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Nathan Poe
Well-Known Member
*RANT MODE ON*
So let me get this straight: The Bible is the true and inerrant word of God because it says it is???
Man, I wish I had that kind of credibility.
Well then, it's God's own fault for making us so darn curious...
I think I'm starting to get it: ask questions=lost. Shut your mouth and do as you're told=saved.
Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. A combination of scripture, anecdotes, and the same old refuted arguments.
*RANT MODE OFF*
So let me get this straight: The Bible is the true and inerrant word of God because it says it is???
Man, I wish I had that kind of credibility.
Well then, it's God's own fault for making us so darn curious...
I think I'm starting to get it: ask questions=lost. Shut your mouth and do as you're told=saved.
Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. A combination of scripture, anecdotes, and the same old refuted arguments.
*RANT MODE OFF*
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JohnR7
Well-Known Member
I use a lot of different colored pens when I take notes. If you make your paragraphs two colors say red and blue. That should give you the effect your wanting. Then within a paragraph, you could use different shades of the same color.
So your paragraphs would be red, blue, red, blue. Instead of red, blue, black, green and so forth.
I use a lot of different colored pens when I take notes. If you make your paragraphs two colors say red and blue. That should give you the effect your wanting. Then within a paragraph, you could use different shades of the same color.
So your paragraphs would be red, blue, red, blue. Instead of red, blue, black, green and so forth.
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Thanks for your ideas, excreationist. I have been unable to find actual biblical support for the idea that nothing on our planet died prior to the first sin, but some young earth creationists have claimed that was their belief. I was just trying to give them an opportunity to explain why they felt that way.....
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lithium.
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I believe that the Universe and earth is 14+ billion years old mostly cause of the evidence. The universe can't be 6,000 years old, if you look at the facts you can see that. First if you look into space the infinte number of galaxies are millions and billions or light years apart, and the big band has even been PROVEN real. And another reason why i think the earth is billions of years old is cause of the follicle evidence and the fack that a planet can't be created in 6 days lol that just stupid to think that. I am sorry if that avends anyone but I believe in science more than a old book. That is no evidence that backs it up. And Evolution has been PROVEN ALSO. BTW.
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The age of the universe is not important, what is important is the love and light of the lord that flows through us everyday of our lives and radiates into everything we do!
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That is great if is true.I can see the spirituality shining every where in the world from Ethiopia,Sudanand of course Jerusalem.
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That is great if is true.I can see the spirituality shining every where in the world from Ethiopia,Sudan and of course Jerusalem.
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lithium.
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The universes age is real important its important so we can know how old the earth and the rest of the planets are. And how many other civilizations exist in the universe, right now people think that there could be 1000's of civilizations in our own galaxy.
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