The Age of the Universe--and Days of Creation

[ocean]

There was death before Adam and Eve. The death that the Bible talks about is spiritual death, not physical death.

Adam and Eve is an allegory, not a work of fiction.

 

[Sinai]

Athlon4all: Definately number 2. When god says 6 days he means 6 days, and I don't ignore any true scientific evidence, yes the Bible is the first authority, but true scientific evidence fits it. In any case, any "evidence" can be twisted to fit one's bias, so its a mute point to debate evidence. There is no other view than 2 that fully fits the Bible's plan of salvation, the fall, etc.

Sinai: Thank you for posting, Athlon. There are a number of Bible scholars who, like you, prefer the second theory listed at the beginning of this thread. However, there are probably just as many Bible scholars who prefer theories 3, 4 or 5. In other words, any of the four can be supported by the Bible. Thus, I am not sure I understand why you say that "There is no other view than 2 that fully fits the Bible's plan of salvation, the fall, etc. " Please explain your reasoning on these points. Thank you.

Athlon4all: Well any other scholar who does not believe in #2 is very off base....If it isn't believed, then many questions come up. Like, why have hope for a better life when there has always been death on destruction? Why do we need a Savior if we all aren't all desendants of Adam and thus under the curse of Adam that all are sinners? And there's so many more.

seebs: Athlon: "death" is also a concept that applies to us spiritually. When we are told that we get "eternal life", I think it's pretty clear that this doesn't mean we never physically die. Why would we need a savior? Because we are sinful! I don't really know exactly what the story of the "curse" means - but I'm quite sure that I can believe in the observable reality that we *are* sinners, and I don't need to know everything.

Athlon4all: When I said death, I mean that there was no physical death until the fall and there was no sin on earth either. There should not be death and suffering before the fall (which is after Man was created) and Evolution says that there has always been death and destruction.

Sinai: I can understand how it might not be possible for there to be any sin until a creature capable of sinning--i.e., a human being with a soul--had been created. However, you may need to explain more carefully why you think that unless and until such a creature with a soul finally sinned, nothing else on the planet could die.

Over two months has elapsed since Athlon's last post. When it became clear that he was apparently not going to answer, I invited others to join in the discussion and answer the question posed to Athlon: "Why do you think there could not have been any physical death of any plant or animal on our planet prior to the sins of Adam and Eve?"

Several persons who are apparently not young earth creationists have answered, but thus far no young earth creationist has explained this position. If you think there could not have been any physical death of any plant or animal on our planet prior to the sins of Adam and Eve, whould you please share your reasons? Thank you.

 

[excreationist]

Originally posted by ocean
There was death before Adam and Eve. The death that the Bible talks about is spiritual death, not physical death.

Adam and Eve is an allegory, not a work of fiction.

So you're saying that the things in the story are symbols which represent other things. What about the genealogies in Genesis which involve long lifespans? (see this site) Do all of those sets of numbers symbolise anything at all? (assuming that they aren't literal ages)

What about parts in the Adam and Eve story, such as these?

14- The Lord God said to the snake, "Because you did this, a curse will be put on you. You will be cursed as no other animal, tame or wild, will ever be. You will crawl on your stomach, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15- I will make you and the woman enemies to each other. Your descendants and her descendants will be enemies. One of her descendants will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."

Well according to AiG, snakes purposely and deliberately lick and eat dust. AiG also brings up Micah 7:17 which talks about some people "licking dust like a serpent". So are you saying that a literal snake wasn't involved? And what do verses 14 and 15 mean? Note it says "your descendents and her descendents will be enemies"... if the snake is just Satan, I guess Satan had kids...

16- Then God said to the woman, "I will cause you to have much trouble when you are pregnant, and when you give birth to children, you will have great pain. You will greatly desire your husband, but he will rule over you."

Is this bit literal?

17- Then God said to the man, "You listened to what your wife said, and you ate fruit from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat. "So I will put a curse on the ground, and you will have to work very hard for your food. In pain you will eat its food all the days of your life. 18- The ground will produce thorns and weeds for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19- You will sweat and work hard for your food. Later you will return to the ground, because you were taken from it. You are dust, and when you die, you will return to the dust."

It sounds like death is a new concept to Adam since here God is explaining death to him. Also, do you think that thorns existed before Adam?

20- The man named his wife Eve, because she is the mother of everyone who has ever lived.

If you look at this list of Bible genealogies you can see that Adam would have been created *less* than 6000 years ago... wouldn't there have been other people living on the earth? Or were Adam and Eve the first humans?

 

[excreationist]

Originally posted by Wookie
Now I'm not going to confess my thoughts on the age of the earth - I really don't want to get into a slanging match - that's not by ball game - but has anyone spotted the fact that a 'considered maximum' of - what was it - about 9000ish years ago (6900BC) isn't that far away from the theorised end of the last ice age....

According to the Bible's genealogies, Adam would have been created *less* than 6000 years ago. And if the days are literal days then the earth would also be less than 6000 years old.

 

[excreationist]

Originally posted by Sinai
Several persons who are apparently not young earth creationists have answered, but thus far no young earth creationist has explained this position. If you think there could not have been any physical death of any plant or animal on our planet prior to the sins of Adam and Eve, whould you please share your reasons? Thank you.

Well I used to be a young-earth creationist....
Here's some ideas...
1) In Genesis and Revelation 22, those who eat of the tree of life can live eternally on earth. If you read Genesis 3:22-24 it seems that reason people die now is because God prevented people having access to the tree of life. If the purpose of the tree of life isn't to prevent death then what is its purpose? To prevent spiritual death? I thought you'd just need to love God to prevent spiritual death - not eat some fruit.

2) Genesis 1:31 says that God's creation was very good (other translations say he was very pleased with it). I thought death and suffering, etc, isn't very good. Deuteronomy 32:4 says God's work is perfect.

3) Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."
If that death is only spiritual, then maybe the resurrection is only from spiritual death and there is no afterlife! I thought Paul would precise in his language.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 - "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
This is saying that Jesus will raise people from death *in the future* - i.e. it is talking about literal death and resurrection.

4) Romans 8:22-23 - "For we know that up to the present time all of creation groans with pain, like the pain of childbirth. But it is not just creation alone which groans; we who have the Spirit as the first of God's gifts also groan within ourselves as we wait for God to make us his children and set our whole being free."
So some aspects of nature are cursed - e.g. maybe animals are mortal.

5) In Genesis 1:29 God says that the people can eat grain and fruit and in verse 30 it says the wild animals and birds can eat grass and leafy plants.... it seems that everyone is a vegetarian! (i.e. nothing another animal for food) But after Adam and Eve sinned, God killed some animals to make clothes for them and Abel kept sheep - for food.

BTW, who said there was no death for plants? They apparently don't have the special god-breathed life that animals do.

Anyway, I think having no human death before Adam and Eve (less than 6000 years ago) is the main thing. The absence of animal death would have a little less support.

 

[Nathan Poe]

*RANT MODE ON*

Originally posted by Psalm6
I agree with Messenjah...it says somewhere in the Bible(i'll try to find the verse) that everything in the Bible is completely true.

So let me get this straight: The Bible is the true and inerrant word of God because it says it is???

Man, I wish I had that kind of credibility.

God can do anything, and it's not our place to try to understand it all. The most important thing to understand is that God created us all, and we need to get along and not fight about unimportant facts.

Well then, it's God's own fault for making us so darn curious...

 

It doesn't matter who's right or wrong, but who's saved and lost.

I think I'm starting to get it: ask questions=lost. Shut your mouth and do as you're told=saved.

go to this site, and maybe it will help to open your eyes www.creationevidence.org It opened mine. Maybe you won't believe anything in it, but read EVERYTHING the site has to offer with an open mind, and maybe it will open yours too. 

Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. A combination of scripture, anecdotes, and the same old refuted arguments.

*RANT MODE OFF*

 

[JohnR7]

 

Originally posted by Sinai
Sorry the use of colors made it more difficult to read.

I use a lot of different colored pens when I take notes. If you make your paragraphs two colors say red and blue. That should give you the effect your wanting. Then within a paragraph, you could use different shades of the same color.

So your paragraphs would be red, blue, red, blue. Instead of red, blue, black, green and so forth.

 

[Sinai]

Thanks for your ideas, excreationist. I have been unable to find actual biblical support for the idea that nothing on our planet died prior to the first sin, but some young earth creationists have claimed that was their belief. I was just trying to give them an opportunity to explain why they felt that way.....

 

[kaotic]

Originally posted by kevinb
I belive there were 6 literal 24hr days the same kind of days that we have today. By the way nobody has ever proved any fossil to be millions or billions of years old. They say the appear to be that old.

HAHAH that is funny, there is alot of evidence, AND facts that have been PROVEN, and i will say it again PROVEN to be millions of years old.

 

[kaotic]

I believe that the Universe and earth is 14+ billion years old mostly cause of the evidence. The universe can't be 6,000 years old, if you look at the facts you can see that. First if you look into space the infinte number of galaxies are millions and billions or light years apart, and the big band has even been PROVEN real. And another reason why i think the earth is billions of years old is cause of the follicle evidence and the fack that a planet can't be created in 6 days lol that just stupid to think that. I am sorry if that avends anyone but I believe in science more than a old book. That is no evidence that backs it up. And Evolution has been PROVEN ALSO. BTW.

 

[spirituality]

The age of the universe is not important, what is important is the love and light of the lord that flows through us everyday of our lives and radiates into everything we do!

 

[sulphur]

That is great if is true.I can see the spirituality shining every where in the world from Ethiopia,Sudanand of course Jerusalem.

 

[sulphur]

That is great if is true.I can see the spirituality shining every where in the world from Ethiopia,Sudan and of course Jerusalem.

 

[kaotic]

Originally posted by spirituality
The age of the universe is not important, what is important is the love and light of the lord that flows through us everyday of our lives and radiates into everything we do!

The universes age is real important its important so we can know how old the earth and the rest of the planets are. And how many other civilizations exist in the universe, right now people think that there could be 1000's of civilizations in our own galaxy.