The Achilles Heel of Atheism

[jpcedotal]

Really what it all boils down to in the end is one decision that every single human being on earth makes.

We either choose God or we choose self. All atheism is..all every other worldview/religion is...is simple selfishness and in the end God is going to give atheists and all non-Christians exactly what they desire ... an eternal life where there is no God.

God doesn't send folks to Hell. Folks choose Hell instead of God. God simply allows each of us to make this choice. Hell is simply a place where God is not.

You want proof that there is a God? Jesus Christ rising from the dead and ascending to Heaven proves God. There were hundreds of eye witnesses that saw this. Why is that so easily discounted? Because folks do not want to believe there is a power higher than themselves...higher than man's own intellect. You want more proof? Jesus Christ is coming back and all people, Christians & non-Christians, will hit their knees and bow their heads and KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that GOD is very real. What is the saddest thing to me is that after this happens there will still be some who will get off their knees and say, "Ok I was wrong, there is a God...but I still choose myself and my way of thinking over Him...and turn away."

Lack of evidence isn't the issue with atheists...surrendering oneself to the will of God is the issue.

 

[Eudaimonist]

We either choose God or we choose self.

False alternative. One can simply choose honesty.

All atheism is..all every other worldview/religion is...is simple selfishness

Ridiculous.

and in the end God is going to give atheists and all non-Christians exactly what they desire ... an eternal life where there is no God.

That is not what I "desire". That (a Godless natural universe) is what I honestly see as real, just as I see myself as waking up in the morning and going to sleep at night.

God doesn't send folks to Hell.

No, God only plays hide and seek with the universe.

You want proof that there is a God? Jesus Christ rising from the dead and ascending to Heaven proves God.

There is no proof of this.

There were hundreds of eye witnesses that saw this.

Name them.

Why is that so easily discounted?

There is no clear evidence of such people, or of what they saw, or of the quality of their judgment in making that determination.

Because folks do not want to believe there is a power higher than themselves...higher than man's own intellect.

I have no difficulty believing in such, if there were evidence for their existence.

You want more proof? Jesus Christ is coming back and all people, Christians & non-Christians, will hit their knees and bow their heads and KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that GOD is very real.

That's not proof. That's your revenge fantasy.

Lack of evidence isn't the issue with atheists...surrendering oneself to the will of God is the issue.

No, it really is the lack of evidence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Belk]

Really what it all boils down to in the end is one decision that every single human being on earth makes.

We either choose God or we choose self. All atheism is..all every other worldview/religion is...is simple selfishness and in the end God is going to give atheists and all non-Christians exactly what they desire ... an eternal life where there is no God.

God doesn't send folks to Hell. Folks choose Hell instead of God. God simply allows each of us to make this choice. Hell is simply a place where God is not.

You want proof that there is a God? Jesus Christ rising from the dead and ascending to Heaven proves God. There were hundreds of eye witnesses that saw this. Why is that so easily discounted? Because folks do not want to believe there is a power higher than themselves...higher than man's own intellect. You want more proof? Jesus Christ is coming back and all people, Christians & non-Christians, will hit their knees and bow their heads and KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that GOD is very real. What is the saddest thing to me is that after this happens there will still be some who will get off their knees and say, "Ok I was wrong, there is a God...but I still choose myself and my way of thinking over Him...and turn away."

Lack of evidence isn't the issue with atheists...surrendering oneself to the will of God is the issue.

Your mind reading powers are not very good. How can you hope to convince me you are right about God when you cant even get the reasons I don't believe correct after I tell them to you?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Really what it all boils down to in the end is one decision that every single human being on earth makes.

We either choose God or we choose self. All atheism is..all every other worldview/religion is...is simple selfishness and in the end God is going to give atheists and all non-Christians exactly what they desire ... an eternal life where there is no God.

Two points to consider. You are saying that we either choose your god or we choose self. In your mind, choosing any other religion is the same as choosing no religion at all -- both are selfish acts. On what basis do you make that assessment?

Second, isn't it possible to choose god for entirely selfish reasons? You brought up Pascal's wager earlier. Suppose that I were persuaded by that wager, and because I wanted to avoid the infinitely bad consequence of eternal damnation for faithlessness, I choose god. Aren't I being selfish? After all, the only reason the wager was persuasive is because it appealed to my interests in obtaining reward and avoiding punishment (on an infinite scale). How many believers are told, from a very young age, that the consequence of doubt is eternal torment in hellfire? You want us to believe that this has no bearing on their decision to "choose god" and to do it under the selfish motivation of avoiding that terrible consequence? Even now you are trying to get us to "choose god" by appealing to our selfish interest in avoiding punishment. You want us to choose god by choosing ourselves.

 

[KCfromNC]

Offensive (as in attacking, not as in vulgarity) Negativism is the sword of atheism.

Nope, ditching a mythology which claims that everyone is an evil and wretched failure is a positive thing.

 

[KCfromNC]

So what about the old saying that it would be better to believe in God and be wrong than to not believe in God and be wrong?

How does that fit into your worldview?

It's useless because you can't pretend to simultaneously believe in all of the thousands of possible gods out there. So even if you think god(s) is/are not smart enough to see through such a transparent attempt to game the system your odds don't really change that much.

 

[KCfromNC]

The Achilles Heel of Atheism is also the Achilles Heel of anyone making proclamations about the immaterial.

What proclamations does atheism make about the immaterial?

 

[Dave Ellis]

I think that is a statement of the a minority of atheists, not the majority. Almost all the atheists on here will tell you under no uncertain terms that God does not exist.

One way strong atheists and fundamental Christians are alike is that neither group gives two cents about political correctness.

Don't get me wrong, I can respect a person who puts "personal believed truth" over political correctness any day...right or wrong.

The "I do not believe" argument just doesn't wash for me. That is not the atheists movement stance.

I don't think you'll find a single Atheist who will claim what you're stating.

The amount of Atheists that would assert that God definitely does not exist is a very small minority. I'm not sure if I know one.

 

[KCfromNC]

I think that is a statement of the a minority of atheists, not the majority. Almost all the atheists on here will tell you under no uncertain terms that God does not exist.

Lots of believers seem to think this despite constant corrections from atheists. I guess once you start accepting things despite the evidence it is hard to stop.

 

[Skavau]

Really what it all boils down to in the end is one decision that every single human being on earth makes.

We either choose God or we choose self. All atheism is..all every other worldview/religion is...is simple selfishness and in the end God is going to give atheists and all non-Christians exactly what they desire ... an eternal life where there is no God.

God doesn't send folks to Hell. Folks choose Hell instead of God. God simply allows each of us to make this choice. Hell is simply a place where God is not.

You want proof that there is a God? Jesus Christ rising from the dead and ascending to Heaven proves God. There were hundreds of eye witnesses that saw this. Why is that so easily discounted? Because folks do not want to believe there is a power higher than themselves...higher than man's own intellect. You want more proof? Jesus Christ is coming back and all people, Christians & non-Christians, will hit their knees and bow their heads and KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that GOD is very real. What is the saddest thing to me is that after this happens there will still be some who will get off their knees and say, "Ok I was wrong, there is a God...but I still choose myself and my way of thinking over Him...and turn away."

Lack of evidence isn't the issue with atheists...surrendering oneself to the will of God is the issue.

jpcedotal, why don't you ask people what they think instead of telling them?

The above is not indicative of any wisdom or piety but arrogance and condescension. I'll speak for myself, thanks.

 

[jpcedotal]

jpcedotal, why don't you ask people what they think instead of telling them?

The above is not indicative of any wisdom or piety but arrogance and condescension. I'll speak for myself, thanks.

One can only speak from one of two sides. With God or without, there is nothing else.

 

[Dave Ellis]

One can only speak from one of two sides. With God or without, there is nothing else.

That's correct, however lacking belief in God does not mean we believe the concept is impossible.

We just see no reason or justification to accept that he exists. There simply is no evidence.

 

[Skavau]

One can only speak from one of two sides. With God or without, there is nothing else.

Uh, okay?

Point is you assume you know people and their motives and you don't. How arrogant is it to declare that you know why each and every atheist is an atheist?

 

[Gadarene]

There were hundreds of eye witnesses that saw this. Why is that so easily discounted? Because folks do not want to believe there is a power higher than themselves...higher than man's own intellect.

No, we reject it because you do not have hundreds of eye-witnesses, instead you have one account that claim hundreds of eye-witnesses. That does not mean there were. I can claim hundreds of eye-witnesses saw whatever unusual event I cared to fabricate - if they're unnamed, it doesn't really mean much.

You want more proof? Jesus Christ is coming back and all people, Christians & non-Christians, will hit their knees and bow their heads and KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that GOD is very real. What is the saddest thing to me is that after this happens there will still be some who will get off their knees and say, "Ok I was wrong, there is a God...but I still choose myself and my way of thinking over Him...and turn away."

Right, because even if your God exists that doesn't mean he is necessarily worth following.

Lack of evidence isn't the issue with atheists...surrendering oneself to the will of God is the issue.

They're both issues, but the second depends on the first being resolved, and it hasn't been yet. And pretending that the first isn't really an issue for atheists in order to cast aspersions on atheists via the second is a lie.

 

[Davian]

One can only speak from one of two sides. With God or without, there is nothing else.

One can only speak for oneself. You may have the wrong god, or there may not be any gods at all.

In the absence of evidence for the existence of deities, I will go with the latter.

 

[Gadarene]

Mr. Petersen,

I too, used to understand that atheism was the view of not believing in God.

However, from several gentlemen here who have given me a better and deeper understanding of what atheism is today, the position ecompasses a wide ranging and eclectic mixture of ideas, thoughts, beliefs and views.

Most will confirm that atheism is "the lack of belief in gods or God". Now you can better understand the vast amounts of interpretations that may fall under the umbrella of this definition.

As Belk hinted at - it seems like you're still treating atheism as a worldview. Atheism only makes a statement on gods - that's it. It only "permits" other beliefs in that it does not really say anything about them at all. It's a statement that describes what we aren't, not what we are.

Full description so far - my stance on religion is atheist, my way of thinking is rationalist/sceptic, my moral basis is utilitarianism, my ethics/politics are secular libertarian.

Critics of atheists tend to think there is an atheist worldview because many of the most outspoken atheists today are left-wing, secularist and rationalist. But none of these are required to be atheists, they're just common in a particular section of debate.

The position itself makes no positive assertions as to the existence or non-existence of God. Now assuredly there are some atheists that categorically deny the existence of God. However, I do not think that most atheists here maintain that position though.

Nor do many leading atheists, incidentally - Dawkins and Hitchens never claimed strong atheism, for example. It's something critics frequently overlook.

I beleive that a good many here simply reserve the right to maintain that they lack a belief in gods or God, and if I may not be presumptuous, I may even say that they do so because they believe that there is no good evidence to believe. This is the position that I believe Belk, and Gadarene hold to, who are two gentlemen I have spoken with at length about this topic.

Sure. In that sense we treat it no differently than we do any posited entity. We don't have justified belief in any posited entity if there is no positive evidence for it.

Good post, Elioenai - took a while coming, but thanks nonetheless.

 

[Ken-1122]

yes. one's children and/or wife can be one's god.

Matthew 10:34-37 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. (35) For I have come to 'SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW'; (36) and 'A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THOSE OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD.' (37) He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

This is Jesus Christ Himself talking.

Anything or anyone a person puts above God is his/her god...

So according to your definition, everything that exists is God; You and I included. The rocks on the ground, the stray dogs that roam the neighborhood, trees, cars, garbage, everything that exists is God which makes the term God meaningless. Obviously you know that nobody else has such a definition of God but if that’s where you want to take it; knock yourself out my friend!

Peace
Ken

 

[jpcedotal]

Uh, okay?

Point is you assume you know people and their motives and you don't. How arrogant is it to declare that you know why each and every atheist is an atheist?

no, I presume to know, by Holy Scripture, why every non-Christian is a non-Christian...atheists are no different than Buddhists in this concept.

Worshiping the statue of the fat man or the fat man in the mirror is really the same worship when you strip off the worthless self rationalization.

 

[jpcedotal]

So according to your definition, everything that exists is God; You and I included. The rocks on the ground, the stray dogs that roam the neighborhood, trees, cars, garbage, everything that exists is God which makes the term God meaningless. Obviously you know that nobody else has such a definition of God but if that’s where you want to take it; knock yourself out my friend!

Peace
Ken

nope...that isn't what I am saying at all. There is only one God, the great I AM. Anything or anyone an individual puts above the one God is idol worship...the worship of a false god...the worship of one's own rationale. If you are not worshiping God, you are worshiping the man or woman in the mirror...self

 

[Non sequitur]

yes. one's children and/or wife can be one's god.

Matthew 10:34-37 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. (35) For I have come to 'SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW'; (36) and 'A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THOSE OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD.' (37) He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

This is Jesus Christ Himself talking.

Anything or anyone a person puts above God is his/her god...

I read "not worthy".

Why are you using words with already specific connotations, meanings and definitions (supernatural, etc) and applying them to things that are not compatible with those specific connotations, meanings and definitions?

This seems rather dishonest.