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Loveaboveall

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Uriah Smith in "Daniel and the Revelation" brings out an interesting point.

Basically, the word abyss(KJV bottomless pit) is the same word used in Genesis 1:2 in the phrase "darkness was upon the face of the deep" Deep is the same word as bottomless pit.

Without a lot of explanation Uriah Smith makes the case that it is describing the earth as it was in its chaotic state before the creation of light. Thus the devil will be bound to this earth with no one to tempt until the thousand years is finished and the ressurection of the unrighteous.
 
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tall73

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The official belierfs statement says:
27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels.
 
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tall73

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Most believe the abyss to be speaking of the empty earth.

The word abusos is the same in the LXX (Greek OT) as here, as noted above.


However, given other texts in Revelation that speak of the abyss, and at least one text in Luke, this becomes a problematic interpretation.

The bottomeless pit here is the same word, and is the rendering given in the KJV on the passage in question.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Luk 8:30 Jesus then asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion," for many demons had entered him.
Luk 8:31 And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss.

The above texts give an indication that there was an abyss before the empty earth where spirits were held or restrained in some way. The locusts came out of the pit during the trumpets, while the inhabitants of the earth were still around. In chapter 17 we see reference to the one who will come out of the abyss, to go to destruction...that would be Satan who is bound there later. The point being, the abyss was around for somethings to come out of earlier, and will be around for Satan to go into..and come out of again.

Just as in Job we see that God restrains the wicked powers as He sees fit, letting them go only so far, but restraining their power.

Cross reference these with Peter's statement on "Tartarus", a place of holding evil spirits, and it seems that we may have overlooked something here:

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

In the above verse the term "hell" is tartarus, a place of holding spirits.






 
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Adventist Dissident

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Tall73

to summerize:

Abyss: is a place where evil is located. it is like a holding cell.

If you know your "superman" story there is what is called a "Phantom Zone" it is a place of banishment for evil. You are saying it is something like that.
 
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tall73

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One question:

Was the "abussos" at creation a place where evil dwelled and evil spirits were kept? If so, why would God create His masterpiece in a place of Evil?

The abusos at Creation was a term used by the LXX that folks are reading into the context of Revelation. Assumedly it meant only something along the lines of chaos, nothing, etc.

So, no. The LXX is often helpful for a few reasons. One is that it gives indications of usage in ancient Greek. The other is that it gives something to tell us the understanding at the time of the Hebrew Scriptures by the translators in Alexandria. It also is believed by some to preserve another stream of the underlying Hebrew text, which seems to have some legitimacy after Qumran's findings, but the jury is still out on that. Another aspecxt is that it was the text usually used by the disciples (at least an LXX type text), so they would often borrow language from it. It is in this last respect that this would come into play. Was John borrowing the concept from Genesis? Well he certainly borrows other OT thoughts. But when looking at usage the first place to look is not the OT but the author himself, and especially in the same book. Other NT usages are also important.

In this case it is pretty clear that the abusos in Luke and Revelation clearly was a holding place, and existed before the incident mentioned in Revelation. Revelation itself mentions it specifically in relation to the trumpets before the second coming. Therefore there is no need to look to the LXX to make sense of it when other passages in the same work, by the same author, give more detail. These additional details in John's account, and in Lukes, rule out the interpetation that we have often given, and the comparison to the generic use of abusos in the LXZX.

Do you dispute that? If so then please explain what is meant by the term when used in the trumpets and in Luke.
 
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OntheDL

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The abusos at Creation was a term used by the LXX that folks are reading into the context of Revelation. Assumedly it meant only something along the lines of chaos, nothing, etc.

So no.

However, the abusos in Luke and Revelation clearly was a holding place, and existed before the incident mentioned in Revelation. Revelation itself mentions it specifically in relation to the trumpets before the second coming.

Do you dispute that?

I think this is speculation. Angels have no physical bodies. Therefore it can also mean God placed restriction on what they can do.
 
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tall73

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I already stated that it was God placing restrictions. I have no problem with the idea that it is not a place so much as a state,given the symbolic context, though whatever it was it was also referenced in Luke in a literal context. I already mentioned the Job reference on God limiting even Satan. What the other poster was implying was that the LXX meaning was more important, and trumped, the usage of the term in the context of Revelation itself.

Now, same question to you. Did the abyss, whatever it was exist prior to Revelation chapter 20 in the book of Revelation? It obviously did. So this was not a new thing. It was not just the barreness of the earth. It was some limiatation on their abilities.
 
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tall73

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But in any event, death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Cease to exist. Not an eternal tormenting hell.

Yes, I am not sure there was anything said contrary to that, unless I missed it.
 
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OntheDL

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I already stated that it was God placing restrictions. I have no problem with the idea that it is not a place so much as a state,given the symbolic context, though whatever it was it was also referenced in Luke in a literal context. I already mentioned the Job reference on God limiting even Satan. What the other poster was implying was that the LXX meaning was more important, and trumped, the usage of the term in the context of Revelation itself.

Now, same question to you. Did the abyss, whatever it was exist prior to Revelation chapter 20 in the book of Revelation? It obviously did. So this was not a new thing. It was not just the barreness of the earth. It was some limiatation on their abilities.

Maybe because it's late. I can't recall what was said by whom...

I'll try to consider the question at a better time.
 
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The phrase bottomless pit' in Luke 8:31, Rev9 & Rev20:3 aren't translated from one exact word.

Luke 8:31 abusson (deep)
Rev 9:1 freatos tees abussou (bottomless pit)
Rev 9:2 freatos (pit)
Rev 9:11 abussou (bottomless pit)
Rev 11:7 abussou (bottomless pit)
Rev 20:2 abusson (bottomless pit)

I'm not an expert on Greek by any means. But I think the word abyss is to describe the condition, the state.

We (humans) are confined to 3 dimensions. Then Eistein came along and showed us the possibility of moving in the 4th dimension (time axis) and bending, curving any dimension.

Now quantum theory says there are 10 or 11 dimensions. It boggles our finite mind.

God lives in all these dimensions. One of them is time dimension. That's why God is omnipresent.

Probably abyss was used to describe a desolate, confined state in one of the dimensions just as abyss was used to describe the 3 dimensional world we know about.

It's fairly reasonable to assume sometime after Job, Satan and his angels have been confined to this earth. And God placed restrictions in different dimensions on them at different time.

I hope this makes sense. I don't think there is a definitive way for us to say one way or another.
 
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tall73

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9:1 ἡ κλεὶς τοῦ φρέατος τῆς ἀβύσσου
The key of the well/hole/pit of the abyss

9:2 τὸ φρέαρ τῆς ἀβύσσου
The well/hole/pit of the abyss

9:11 τὸν ἄγγελον τῆς ἀβύσσου
The angel of the abyss

11:7 τὸ θηρίον τὸ ἀναβαῖνον ἐκ τῆς ἀβύσσου
the beast which comes up from the abyss

20:1 τὴν κλεῖν τῆς ἀβύσσου
the key of the abyss


Note these are all things referring to the abyss, which as noted again was already present before the second coming. It was described as a hole, from which a beast came out of, which an angel belonged to, which the dragon was put into. Both 20:1 and 9:1 make reference to the key.

In other words the abyss was there before the empty earth. Whether it is a state or a place is not important.
 
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