The absence of good

[Tellyontellyon]

I've come across the notion here that evil isn't a real tangible thing as such, more it is the absence of good.

But is that biblical? From what I've read in the Bible it seems to suggest that evil is a real thing (though my reading and understanding is limited.)

What does the Bible actually say that would convince you one way or the other?

Thank you.

 

[zippy2006]

The idea is that evil is a privation of the good, a privatio boni, and it was initially expounded by Augustine. So there is nothing which is pure evil. Anything that is evil is a good thing that has been corrupted.

The Biblical support for this idea comes in the declaration of monotheism itself. That is, there is no evil god who opposes God. There is one God who created everything, and everything he created was good (Genesis 1:31). Nothing was created evil and no parallel evil force stands athwart God.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I've come across the notion here that evil isn't a real tangible thing as such, more it is the absence of good.

But is that biblical? From what I've read in the Bible it seems to suggest that evil is a real thing (though my reading and understanding is limited.)

What does the Bible actually say that works convince you one way or the other?

Thank you.

This is true. That comes from saint Augustine, but the concept comes from the origins of evil in the Bible, especially Satan's fall, and also Adam and Eve sinning later on after being tempted in the Garden.

Unlike Zoroastrianism and similar kinds of conceptions of good and evil in pop culture etc. Good and evil are not equal or roughly equivalent. Basically Satan, the Devil etc. is not anywhere close to God, he actually is a former servant of God, one of the top ones. So that means he does not possess God's omni attributes of being all powerful, omniscience, omnipresent, and pre-existent. Rather he is a created being whose power is considerable, yet limited.


And also similarly Adam and Eve were created "Good" etc. but had free will. Evil as far as humanity goes came from them exorcising it against the commands of God in the Garden as far as partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[com7fy8]

From what I've read in the Bible it seems to suggest that evil is a real thing

Our Apostle Paul says there is >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

To me, this means there is an actual spiritual being of evil. And this evil spirit "works" very hard.

You can consider how people became able to so hate and torture and murder Jesus who is God's own Son. So, this spirit is this unreasonable and horrible.

And possibly you have experienced how cruel and horrible fear is. By means of "fear of death" people are in slavery to Satan > Hebrews 2:14-15. This cruel stuff is present in people; it is not just an absence, I would say. Fear is very active, and destroys people from loving >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

People are corrupted by the anti-love work of Satan's "spirit of fear".

"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 1:7)

An absence would not be able to degrade a human's spirit into the cruel stuff of fear, I would say.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I like to say sin is the privation of good. It certainly opposes good —it opposes God— but it is not quite the opposite of good, certainly not a binary opposite of God. I tend think it is a non-thing, not quite even a principle. But it requires much more study to understand how awful it is, and I haven't gotten there yet —I think I won't ever in this life know, but when I see God as he is, then I will understand. Seems a riddle at this point.

God told Cain, "Sin crouches at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it." Sounds like a personality there, but I don't know. He also said, "Get behind me, Satan", when addressing Peter, who certainly did not turn out to be Satan. If sin is a personality, it certainly has everything to do with Satan, the father of sin.

Bear in mind too, that when Christ died for those whom he redeemed, it says "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." I'm thinking the implications there are huge. But I'm still ignorant and learning.

 

[Rescued One]

The full armor of God protects us from evil:

Ephesians 6
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I've come across the notion here that evil isn't a real tangible thing as such, more it is the absence of good.

But is that biblical? From what I've read in the Bible it seems to suggest that evil is a real thing (though my reading and understanding is limited.)

What does the Bible actually say that would convince you one way or the other?

Thank you.

Evil is what we would think it to be, murders, thefts, uncontrolled sexual passion.

1Ti 1:9-10 We also understand that it wasn't given to control people who please God, but to control lawbreakers, criminals, godless people, and sinners. It is for wicked and evil people, and for murderers, who would even kill their own parents. The Law was written for people who are sexual perverts or who live as homosexuals or are kidnappers or liars or won't tell the truth in court. It is for anything else that opposes the correct teaching.

An evil person, may have some good attributes, so it is not the absence of good. But it is pushing against God's good nature, it is not the absence of good, but choosing to push away a part of God's good nature.

Probably no one alive has a total absence of good, but they have for the most part chosen to remove God's nature from their knowledge.

 

[renniks]

I tend to think of it this way: where ever good is absent, evil becomes real. It's both the absence of good and a real entity. Don't underestimate Satan just because he's less powerful. His whole thing is deception and he's had a lot of practice.
Is darkness real or is it just the absence of light?
It's certainly real when you are in darkness.
Evil forces exist, they aren't just in our minds.

 

[Jesus is my Superhero]

I've encountered evil within and without of myself and it isn't just a void lacking the goodness of God. What is this force through the centuries that inspires violence? The exceedingly great deal of death and destruction? This repeated rage and murder throughout the ages is docile and inert? Pfft!

 

[Tellyontellyon]

I couldn't find a Ricky Bobby yet... not in the NT anyway....?

In other words... would people make their arguments from scripture please... Philosophical arguments are very clever, but the op is about trying to justify these through what the Bible says... What position does the Bible take...
Thank you.

 

[ChetSinger]

I've come across the notion here that evil isn't a real tangible thing as such, more it is the absence of good.

But is that biblical? From what I've read in the Bible it seems to suggest that evil is a real thing (though my reading and understanding is limited.)

What does the Bible actually say that would convince you one way or the other?

Thank you.

I learned something recently that might pertain to this.

I've always read and spoken the Lord's prayer like this (from Matthew 6):

...And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil...​

But while reading the NET version I came across this:

...and do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one...​

The NET explains it's choice in this footnote:

The term πονηροῦ (ponhrou) may be understood as specific and personified, referring to the devil, or possibly as a general reference to evil. It is most likely personified since it is articular (τοῦ πονηροῦ, tou ponhrou). Cf. also “the evildoer” in 5:39, which is the same construction.​

That is, 'evil' isn't an actual thing in itself. Rather, it is an adjective that describes a behavior, and the prayer is asking for protection from an actual being (Satan) who exhibits that behavior.

Is this helpful?

 

[Mark Quayle]

He also wrote that "The essence of sin is disordered love" or "loving the right things in the wrong order". Having the wrong priorities is what leads us to making the wrong (i.e. sinful) decisions and actions.

I like that. Kind of reminds me of what Jesus said to Peter, after, "Get thee behind me, Satan!" He said, "You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."

 

[tampasteve]

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[childeye 2]

The lie exists to subvert the Truth and not the other way around. The first lie would have to impugn the Holy Character of God so as to undermine faith/trust in God.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

The first lie would have to impugn the Holy Character of God so as to undermine faith/trust in God.

So were Adam and Eve the first sinners, or was the serpent the first sinner?

 

[Mark Quayle]

So were Adam and Eve the first sinners, or was the serpent the first sinner?

Satan is the first sinner, but he was not the one to whom God gave the command, nor are we descendants of Satan, so it is not in Satan that we are born sinners, but in Adam.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I've come across the notion here that evil isn't a real tangible thing as such, more it is the absence of good.

But is that biblical? From what I've read in the Bible it seems to suggest that evil is a real thing (though my reading and understanding is limited.)

What does the Bible actually say that would convince you one way or the other?

Thank you.

Evil is something that causes displeasure, though the focus of usage today tends to be on greater displeasures to large groups of people, or what causes displeasure to God.

For example "Spamming is evil," would be follow the pattern of word usage in the bible.

Here is the word context from the old testament

H7451 - raʿ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

 

[childeye 2]

So were Adam and Eve the first sinners, or was the serpent the first sinner?

Satan may actually be sin or the impetus for sin. He both tempts and accuses those he tempts which projects distrust. Satan is called the Father of lies by Jesus, who also said there is no truth in him (the devil). I believe Satan formed a false image of a tyrant god out of prejudice which is why he had no truth in him. He definitely showed a negative prejudice towards Job while counting God's trust in Job as naïveté.

Elsewhere in scripture it speaks as if the tree of knowledge of good and evil is Lucifer. Scripture says he was perfect until iniquity was found in him, and suggests that this was a byproduct of vanity. As Lucifer became enamored with his beauty he also began to despise those not as gifted as himself and of lesser stature. Scripture also says that it is the children of Satan that are slaves to sin indicating a spiritual connection between a corrupt image of god and sin.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Go back to the creation, of everything by God, and the darkness was divided from the light, and the darkness was not good, but the light was good.

See in John 1, how when the light shined/shines, that the darkness, does not have understanding of it, or any need for it.


Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.



Now, what that is, that God says He created there, which was the light, and the darkness, which is the peace/ the good, and the evil/not good.



Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.



Then evil already is known, to be darkness, opposing to light, not good, but also created by God to be in His purposes, very much from what it is divided from, which is the light and the good.

Then, Isaiah 61, reminds us of the planting of the Lord, which is trees of righteousness, to not be as evil trees, who hate the good, and who love the evil, but to be Gods remnant, loving the Lord, is to hate evil, and to love the good, and know the Lord Gods judgments.



Isaiah 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

Micah 3:2 Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones;

Psalm 97:10 Ye that love the Lord, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Amos 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the Lord God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.



Then, we understand how Jesus puts it to us, to make that tree/person, good, or corrupt.

Then, the generation that are evil, and do exist as evil, speak what is in their heart.

The good one, speaks out of the good treasure, and the evil one, who brings forth their evil things, did not love the good, ( only one is good and that is God) to know the righteous judgments of our good Lord Jesus Christ, and so have to answer on the day of judgement why they failed to care and love as they professed to know God. Which is another reason people are wise to be careful with our words and opinions, as only God's is correct/true, because of being the Spirit of truth.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.




As for sin, who was first, and what it means.

The devil deceives the whole world, and some people with the devil in them, deceive others.

But the outcome describes the relevance of everyone, all go into the lake of fire, the devil, the beast, the false prophet, and who is not found written in the Lambs book of life, telling who is first matters nothing, nor who did what part, what matters is all that is evil ceases to be.


Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[prophecy_uk]

The ending of darkness/evil, is expressed, with there being no night any more, and then in the new earth and Heavens, there is righteousness, which is the ending of unrighteousness, the ending of darkness, the ending of evil, showing evil existed, then existed no more ever again.


Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;