The 70th week??????

[eclipsenow]

We are discussing The 70th week!

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

Yes, this is the 70th week.

This refers to the last days. The man of sin! The antichrist.

Hang on there sunshine, you just added 2500 years! Sorry pal. When Daniel says 70 Sevens he, at the most, means about 490 years. Seven times Seventy. You simply don't have any scriptural reason to add 2000 years!

ALSO NOTE: The temple discussed WAS rebuilt under Persian rule and then WAS destroyed around that 490 to 500 year timeframe. So you are in effect not only adding 2000 years, but adding a whole new temple which remains hypothetical, unbiblical, and unwarranted by this particular text.

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians? Interesting choice to back up how to read Daniel 9. Why not Jesus on forgiveness when he says to forgive like God one must forgive SEVENTY TIMES SEVEN? Why not Jesus when he says his BODY is the temple that will be destroyed and rebuilt again! Put these references to Daniel 9 together and you have Jesus death being the Seventy times Seven super-Sabbath forgiveness of God's people.
But why not quote Jesus when he explains that an abomination of desolation will happen to HIS GENERATION!

2 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The 'these things' are the end of the temple in THAT generation. Yes, believe it or not, when the disciples asked about the TEMPLE THEY WERE STARING AT WITH THEIR OWN EYES RIGHT THEN AND THERE, Jesus went and answered about (a hypothetical 3rd temple they could not conceive of or possibly be interested in over 2000 years later? I don't think so!) the TEMPLE THEY WERE ACTUALLY LOOKING AT and ASKING ABOUT!

This is what various writers over the centuries have said about Matt:24:34

Chrysostom (375)
"But of wars in Jerusalem is He speaking; for it is not surely of those without, and everywhere in the world; for what did they care for these? And besides, He would thus say nothing new, if He were speaking of the calamities of the world at large, which are happening always. For before this, were wars, and tumults, and fightings; but He speaks of the Jewish wars coming upon them at no great distance, for henceforth the Roman arms were a matter of anxiety. Since then these things also were sufficient to confound them, He foretells them all. Therefore He saith, they shall come not by themselves or at once, but with signs. For that the Jews may not say, that they who then believed were the authors of these evils, therefore hath He told them also of the cause of their coming upon them. "For verily I say unto you," He said before, "all these things shall come upon this generation," having made mention of the stain of blood on them. " (Homilies)

F.F. Bruce
"The phrase "this generation" is found too often on Jesus' lips in this literal sense for us to suppose that it suddenly takes on a different meaning in the saying we are now examining. Moreover, if the generation of the end-time had been intended, 'that generation' would have been a more natural way of referring to it than 'this generation. (The Hard Sayings of Jesus, p. 227)
John Calvin
"The meaning therefore is: "This prophecy does not relate to evils that are distant, and which posterity will see after the lapse of many centuries, but which are now hanging over you, and ready to fall in one mass, so that there is no part of it which the present generation will not experience." (in loc.)
"For within fifty years the city was destroyed and the temple was razed, the whole country was reduced to a hideous desert, and the obstinacy of the world rose up against God." (Commentary on the Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. 3, trans. by William Pringle (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949), 151.


The man of sin has nothing to do with Daniel 9. Indeed, given the New Testament's emphasis on the church being God's people and Christians being the temple of God (now that Jesus the TRUE TEMPLE lives in them!), there's every reason to believe that this 'man of sin' refers to cult leaders and the heartbeat of evil. The verse is saying that evil, false leaders will be exposed on the Last Day, that our hearts of darkness will be exposed. And not to be like that!

 

[Douggg]

2 Thessalonians? Interesting choice to back up how to read Daniel 9. Why not Jesus on forgiveness when he says to forgive like God one must forgive SEVENTY TIMES SEVEN? Why not Jesus when he says his BODY is the temple that will be destroyed and rebuilt again!

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the destruction of the temple (Jesus's body in your interpretation)? The only place is Daniel 9:26. Was Jesus also, Jerusalem? What's your verse(s) to prove it?

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[Bible2]

Manasseh said in post 149:

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

you have to study all the things Christ spoke about up to the point that he made that statement ................the temple being destroyed was only at the beginning when it peaked the apostles' curiosity , prompting them to ask when Christ would finally return

his return included

That's right.

Mt. 24:34 is referring to "all these things", the entire tribulation & the 2nd coming (immediately after the tribulation: Mt. 24:29-31) which Jesus had just finished describing in Mt. 24:5-31, & which he would later show in great detail in Rev. chs. 6-19. Mt 24:34 didn't mean the tribulation & 2nd coming would be fulfilled during the temporal generation at the time of Jesus' 1st coming, for neither of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Mt. 24:34 could refer to the temporal generation that saw the 1948 re-establishment of Israel (see the "Mt. 24:34" part of post 97).

Mt. 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Mt. 24:22, Lk. 16:8b, Col. 3:12, 1 Thes. 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the tribulation, but that some of the elect will survive (Mt. 24:22) until the 2nd coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53) immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

the world's worst time of trouble it ever experienced
to the point that mankind would possibly annihilate itself from the planet if God didn't intervene

Mt. 24:21-22 can mean if the Lord hadn't already shortened (as in "he hath shortened": Mk. 13:20) the number of days, hadn't already determined (from the beginning of Creation, cf. Isa. 46:10) that he would return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15) -- which 1,335th day would be immediately after the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt 24 (Mt. 24:29-31), immediately after the tribulation's final event, the worldwide destruction of vial 7 (Rev. 16:19, 19:2-20:6) -- but instead had determined to just let the world suffer through vial 7's aftermath, then all flesh on the earth would die in the aftermath, which could involve a nuclear winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his 2nd coming) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at vial 7 (Rev. 17:16-17a, 16:19).

 

[Bible2]

hiscosmicgoldfish said in post 86:

. . . the wilderness years are the church age . . .

There's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue on the earth throughout all ages (Eph. 3:21). The church will continue on the earth throughout the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), & then throughout the subsequent millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), & then forever on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-22:5).

. . . which is the symbolic number of 1260 days or 3.5 years.

The still-unfulfilled 1,260-day time period in the prophecies of Rev. 12:6,14, 11:3,2, 13:5, Dan. 7:25, 12:7 will be 1,260 literal days, just as, e.g., the 3 days in the fulfilled prophecies of Lk. 9:22, 18:33 were 3 literal days.

The 42 months (Rev. 13:5, 11:2b) of the Antichrist's still-unfulfilled Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Rev. 13:4-18, 12:9) will be literal. That's why other verses refer to that same future time period as lasting 3.5 years (Rev. 12:14, Dan. 7:25, 12:7), or 1,260 days (Rev. 12:6, 11:3), & why the many details of Rev. 13 were never fulfilled during a past time period of 1,260 years (as historicism mistakenly claims).

 

[eclipsenow]

Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the destruction of the temple (Jesus's body in your interpretation)? The only place is Daniel 9:26. Was Jesus also, Jerusalem? What's your verse(s) to prove it?

It's bigger than that. Jesus is the antitype to so many Old Testament types it's hard to know where to start. But I think you're being pedantic and sidestepping the main issues. Who is the Anointed One in Daniel 9? Who gets 'cut off'? If Jesus predicts the end of the temple, and also compares the temple to himself, where does he weep over Jerusalem? Does he wish that Jerusalem would repent, and give us that tender image of a mother hen gathering her chicks under its wings? Yep, Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem as well.

But it's bigger than that. Jesus isn't just Jerusalem, he is the antitype to disobedient Old Testament Israel, he is the perfect Israel!

INDEED, JESUS NOT ONLY BRINGS THE KINGDOM OF GOD, HE *IS* ISRAEL!

This next verse is a great example of how the New Testament sometimes makes a profound theological point by allegorising an Old Testament prophecy.

It's from Matthew 2.
14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

It's a fairly unremarkable prophecy until one looks it up and realises the verse isn't talking about Jesus at all, but about Israel.

It's from Hosea 11
1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

In case you are tempted to say this is all about Jacob (Israel) when he was younger, consider this. The man Jacob was led by God into Egypt to save the line of Jacob from the famine. This usually told from the perspective of his son Joseph. But the point here is that God saved Israel the man by leading him into Egypt; God saved Israel the nation by leading them out of Egypt.

In case there is any doubt the next verse of Hosea speaks of them in the plural.

2 But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.

Anyway, Jesus lived as the perfect Israel! He lived as the perfect Kingdom of God here on earth: as perfect and sinless as Israel should have been. Jesus not only brings us into the Kingdom of God in his death and resurrection, Jesus lived as the perfect Kingdom of God in this world. He lived the flawless life of a perfect Jew, a perfect 'Son of God' (in this case referring to him as a human being), and ultimately the alternative to Adam and his rebellion. Jesus *was* the Kingdom of God here on earth, *created* the Kingdom of God in the church, and *brings* the Kingdom of God to its final consummation and safety in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Imagine the shape of an hourglass. There's that narrow neck in the middle that all the sand must pass through to get where it's going. Jesus is that neck. After the Kingdom of God is established in Israel, and Israel rebels, there seems to be this winnowing down of the faithful remnant. The Kingdom splits and the ten northern tribes are gone. Then they are exiled. Then Jerusalem is attacked. More of Judah is gone. Then eventually all of it is removed and carried off into exile. The prophets talk about a faithful remnant that continue to live for the Lord, but the number seems to be shrinking daily. Finally we come to Jesus and Simeon announces he has seen the salvation of the Lord! Jesus appoints the 12 disciples representing the new 12 tribes of Israel. Then it comes time for his execution.

The disciples flee.

Jesus, the perfect Israel that God rescued out of Egypt, hangs on a cross alone. After living as the perfect Kingdom of God, he dies for that Kingdom.

And rises again, fulfilling all our eschatological hopes for salvation from sin, redemption as a people of God, and guaranteeing the perfect future Kingdom's final consummation. The Holy Spirit is given to the church and Peter announces it is the last days in his theologically and eschatologically loaded sermon in Acts 2! Three thousand people are added to the church that day, and the hourglass starts to grow out again!

Never forget that Jesus lived as the perfect Israel, as this is a profoundly important theological key to understanding End Times theology!

 

[JLB777]

It's bigger than that. Jesus is the antitype to so many Old Testament types it's hard to know where to start. But I think you're being pedantic and sidestepping the main issues. Who is the Anointed One in Daniel 9? Who gets 'cut off'? If Jesus predicts the end of the temple, and also compares the temple to himself, where does he weep over Jerusalem? Does he wish that Jerusalem would repent, and give us that tender image of a mother hen gathering her chicks under its wings? Yep, Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem as well.

But it's bigger than that. Jesus isn't just Jerusalem, he is the antitype to disobedient Old Testament Israel, he is the perfect Israel!

INDEED, JESUS NOT ONLY BRINGS THE KINGDOM OF GOD, HE *IS* ISRAEL!

This next verse is a great example of how the New Testament sometimes makes a profound theological point by allegorising an Old Testament prophecy.

It's from Matthew 2.
14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

It's a fairly unremarkable prophecy until one looks it up and realises the verse isn't talking about Jesus at all, but about Israel.

It's from Hosea 11
1 “When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.

In case you are tempted to say this is all about Jacob (Israel) when he was younger, consider this. The man Jacob was led by God into Egypt to save the line of Jacob from the famine. This usually told from the perspective of his son Joseph. But the point here is that God saved Israel the man by leading him into Egypt; God saved Israel the nation by leading them out of Egypt.

In case there is any doubt the next verse of Hosea speaks of them in the plural.

2 But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.

Anyway, Jesus lived as the perfect Israel! He lived as the perfect Kingdom of God here on earth: as perfect and sinless as Israel should have been. Jesus not only brings us into the Kingdom of God in his death and resurrection, Jesus lived as the perfect Kingdom of God in this world. He lived the flawless life of a perfect Jew, a perfect 'Son of God' (in this case referring to him as a human being), and ultimately the alternative to Adam and his rebellion. Jesus *was* the Kingdom of God here on earth, *created* the Kingdom of God in the church, and *brings* the Kingdom of God to its final consummation and safety in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Imagine the shape of an hourglass. There's that narrow neck in the middle that all the sand must pass through to get where it's going. Jesus is that neck. After the Kingdom of God is established in Israel, and Israel rebels, there seems to be this winnowing down of the faithful remnant. The Kingdom splits and the ten northern tribes are gone. Then they are exiled. Then Jerusalem is attacked. More of Judah is gone. Then eventually all of it is removed and carried off into exile. The prophets talk about a faithful remnant that continue to live for the Lord, but the number seems to be shrinking daily. Finally we come to Jesus and Simeon announces he has seen the salvation of the Lord! Jesus appoints the 12 disciples representing the new 12 tribes of Israel. Then it comes time for his execution.

The disciples flee.

Jesus, the perfect Israel that God rescued out of Egypt, hangs on a cross alone. After living as the perfect Kingdom of God, he dies for that Kingdom.

And rises again, fulfilling all our eschatological hopes for salvation from sin, redemption as a people of God, and guaranteeing the perfect future Kingdom's final consummation. The Holy Spirit is given to the church and Peter announces it is the last days in his theologically and eschatologically loaded sermon in Acts 2! Three thousand people are added to the church that day, and the hourglass starts to grow out again!

Never forget that Jesus lived as the perfect Israel, as this is a profoundly important theological key to understanding End Times theology!

Your interpretation is faulty because you seem to think that you can "spiritualize" part of Daniel's 70 week prophecy.

• The 70 week period is a literal 490 year period, broken up into 3 literal periods of time 7 weeks, 62 weeks and 1 week.

• There was a real command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Literal Fulfillment!

• The fulfillment of "Until Messiah The Prince" was literal.

• Messiah was "cut off" after the 69th week! Literal fulfillment!
  

• The city and sanctuary were destroyed after the 69th week! Literal fulfillment!

• We are awaiting the literal fulfillment of the 70th week!

No Jesus wasn't Jerusalem!

Jesus is the Messiah!

Jerusalem is Jerusalem in this prophecy!


The Temple is about to be rebuilt according to Daniel 9:27!

The Temple Institute: The Holy Temple in Jerusalem

What is your motive in trying to confuse the matter.

God is not the Author of confusion!


JLB

 

[eclipsenow]

Your interpretation is faulty because you seem to think that you can "spiritualize" part of Daniel's 70 week prophecy.

• The 70 week period is a literal 490 year period, broken up into 3 literal periods of time 7 weeks, 62 weeks and 1 week.

• There was a real command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Literal Fulfillment!

• The fulfillment of "Until Messiah The Prince" was literal.

• Messiah was "cut off" after the 69th week! Literal fulfillment!
  

• The city and sanctuary were destroyed after the 69th week! Literal fulfillment

Good so far, the record is playing a wonderful triumphant chorus like Beethoven's Ode to Joy...

• We are awaiting the literal fulfillment of the 70th week!

And then the needle tears across the record with a big "Vrrrrrrrrpppppp!" noise.

What are you doing recommending Literal Literal Literal and then suddenly, without ANY hint of it in the passage, adding 2000 years to the text! What gives you the RIGHT to do that after just claiming that it's all literal?

No Jesus wasn't Jerusalem!

Jesus is the Messiah!

Jerusalem is Jerusalem in this prophecy!


The Temple is about to be rebuilt according to Daniel 9:27!

The Temple Institute: The Holy Temple in Jerusalem

What is your motive in trying to confuse the matter.

God is not the Author of confusion!

Just keep shouting, but I can't get past your sudden uncalled for insertion of 2000 years into Daniel 9 after having the gall to suggest only YOU read it literally. You've just completely and utterly contradicted yourself. Is it literal or not?

Answer: the fact that the message starts with Jewish number symbolism of "Seven Sevens and Seventy Sevens" tells me all sorts of things are going on. Seven Sevens were meant to rest the land. They indicated a Jubilee year. SEVENTY Sevens indicates that just as Lamech was going to OVER avenge himself if offended, God is going to OVER forgive Israel. It's like a SUPER jubilee. Jesus says if we are to forgive like God we are to forgive Seventy times Seven! Now, God might have (in a particular almost impossible to calculate way) ordained that Jesus died right on the 490th year. But there are many issues about which particular 'word' is the actual proclamation authorising Israel to return to the Land that we are to calculate from. (There are a number of 'words' from authorities). Which calendar? What calculations? It's all a bit complex.

It seems like the passage is symbolically saying there's going to be a Jubilee forgiveness when Israel goes back, but a SUPER-JUBILEE when the Messiah dies! Calculations around years and stuff, well, the Jews quite often were very symbolic with their numbers. I'm not convinced this is meant to be taken entirely literally.

EG: It could even be roughly proportional, indicating fractions of time. That there will be about Seven Sevens until Israel goes back, but about 62 Sevens until the Lord dies and forgives us permanently. But I doubt it. The numbers 49 and 490 are just so huge in biblical symbolism that I think the 62 between them is arbitrary, just the result of the difference between the IMPORTANT numbers in this passage!

 

[Douggg]

Answer: the fact that the message starts with Jewish number symbolism of "Seven Sevens and Seventy Sevens" tells me all sorts of things are going on.

But that consideration is secondary to the literal weeks of years, because the consideration you are advocating is not stated in the text of the passage, while historical record backs up the number of weeks of years are literal.

That's the point being made to you. (btw, what's the Beethoven comment supposed to mean - just asking, not arguing)

You are taking a secondary consideration where you are formulating intent (albeit I recognize that 70 7's is an expression used at times not to be a literal number) and making it the primary interpretation of Daniel 9. That's where you are going wrong, eclipse.


Doug

 

[eclipsenow]

The Beethoven comment, as you call it, is a symbolic way of saying there's a discordant note (or catastrophic event!) right in the middle of his post. In other words, you can't get all high and mighty about reading it 'literally' when he absolutely fails to read it literally by projecting the end of the 70 7's off another 2000 years! That's not only inconsistent, it's not called for by the text, and is rather ridiculous. It's one of the KEY points that made Dr Kim Riddlebarger give up futurism.

 

[JLB777]

The Beethoven comment, as you call it, is a symbolic way of saying there's a discordant note (or catastrophic event!) right in the middle of his post. In other words, you can't get all high and mighty about reading it 'literally' when he absolutely fails to read it literally by projecting the end of the 70 7's off another 2000 years! That's not only inconsistent, it's not called for by the text, and is rather ridiculous. It's one of the KEY points that made Dr Kim Riddlebarger give up futurism.

1. The 70th seven comes after the event of "the city and sanctuary is destroyed" which is in 70 AD.

So the text itself demands that the 70th week does not run concurrently with the 69 th week.


2. The fact that "Temple" language is used in the 70 th week;

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, -

even though we see the "city and sanctuary destroyed" in verse 26, tells us that the rebuilding of the temple is a major key to the 70 th week fulfillment.


3. When the disciples asked about the The Lord's return and the end of the age, Jesus answered them with language and a direct reference to Daniel - "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

This tells us that the events of Daniel 9:27 are associated with the end of the age!


4. The language of Daniel 9 verse 27 speaks of a specific time frame of 3 1/2 years - But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
We see this 3 1/2 year time frame throughout the scripture, associated with the end of the age!

• Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

• Daniel 7:24-25 The ten horns are ten kings Who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first ones, And shall subdue three kings. 25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

• Revelation 11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

• Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

• Revelation 12:14,17 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

• Revelation 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
  

All of the verse's that are associated with Daniel's 70th week time frame concern the language "in the midst of the week" are at the end of the age!

So, the text itself as well as the associated text tells us there is a gap in the time between the 69th week and the 70 th week. Just like there is a gap between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks.


JLB

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 165:

Who is the Anointed One in Daniel 9?

See post 108.

Jesus predicts the end of the temple, and also compares the temple to himself . . .

See the "Herod's temple" part of post 117, & see "The ultimate temple" part of post 137. Also, see the "3rd Jewish temple" part of post 133.

It's from Matthew 2.14 . . .

Mt. 2:15 refers to the "son" part of Hos. 11:1, which is an example of a word in scripture with dual significance: it refers at the same time to the nation of Old Covenant Israel (Ex. 4:22) & its Exodus from Egypt, & to Jesus (Mt. 2:14-15,19-21).

Jesus appoints the 12 disciples representing the new 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev. 20:4's "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" refers to during the millennium on the earth (Rev. 20:4-6, Rev. 5:10), when, e.g., the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones "judging" the 12 tribes of Israel (Mt. 19:28, Lk. 22:30) in the sense of ongoing rule, like the "judges" ruled Israel in the book of Judges.

The Holy Spirit is given to the church and Peter announces it is the last days in his theologically and eschatologically loaded sermon in Acts 2!

That's right.

We're living in the last "days", for they began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' 1st coming (Heb. 1:2) & the Holy Spirit's coming at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last "days" are the last 3 roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Pet. 3:8) of the 7 roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth & the creation of the new earth (Rev. 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" are the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' 1st coming to sometime after the future millennium (Rev. 20:4-6), which will be during the last roughly 1,000-year "day".

 

[Bible2]

Douggg said in post 80:

. . . the originators of your replacement theology began substituting the church for Israel.

Even though the church is Israel (Rev. 21:9,12, 1 Pet. 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29, Jn. 10:16) which also includes the Jews in the church (Rom. 11:1).

 

[Douggg]

Even though the church is Israel (Rev. 21:9,12, 1 Pet. 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29, Jn. 10:16) which also includes the Jews in the church (Rom. 11:1).

None of those references directly say that we become parts of already-existing Israel. You are making an interpretation of the verses.

In Romans, 11, I think the analogy that Paul was using was not intended as Gentiles becoming part of Israel the nation. I think the idea was that gentiles were outside of God's covenant with Israel to be a chosen people.

But that through Christ, the new covenant offered to all, we can be of God's chosen people from all kindreds, tongues, peoples (Daniel 7:14, Revelation 7:9) in the kingdom of God, not that we become a part of the nation of Israel.

Revelation 21: 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

 

[eclipsenow]

Hi again JBL,
I appreciate that you've probably been raised with a futurist reading of Daniel 9 as a 'gospel truth', but I honestly don't see how verses 26 and 27 are discussing anything different. They're discussing the same thing: the destruction of the temple. Verses 24 and 25 make it clear that Israel is going to be completely and utterly redeemed and saved from sin by the end of the 70th week.

There's no way to smuggle an extra 285.7 'sevens' into the text! (An extra 2000 years!) Sorry pal, but everything happens in Seventy Sevens. It says so right there in verse 24!

Before you go and insert a (still yet hypothetical) *third* temple into this picture (without any biblical reason to do so!), just remember how horrified and confused Daniel must have felt when the angel promises the restoration and rebuilding of Israel and Jerusalem and the temple... only to have it ALL destroyed again! How shocking! How bizarre? God's going to fix all Israel's problems with sin by letting Israel rebuild Jerusalem and the temple only to have it all.... destroyed? What? WHY?

But here's the thing. There's only one temple being destroyed here. That's the one that was first promised to be rebuilt! If you want this to be about a (hypothetical) THIRD temple, please show me the verses that discuss the temple being rebuilt... AGAIN! It's just not there.

Rather than trying to insert 2000 years into an imaginary 'gap' between the end of verse 26 and the beginning of verse 27, can't you see that verse 26 quickly summarises what is going to happen and 27 just unpacks it a bit more? Verse 26 talks about the destruction of the sanctuary and desolations have been decreed. Verse 27 just unpacks how that will occur and even uses the word 'desolation' again. Verse 26 says "AFTER the 62 sevens" (which is in the middle of the Seventieth Seven!) the Anointed One will be put to death. Verse 27 unpacks that when it says "until the end that is decreed is poured out on him".

Jesus death is the abomination that causes the desolation of the sacrificial system. It no longer works after Jesus death. The blood of sheep and goats was only ever looking forward to the real sacrifice for sins, Jesus blood.

The Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem in AD70 because God knew we would be tempted to keep trusting in the temple. That's what Hebrews 8 is all about. "It is fading" refers to the temple system. But, as Hebrews makes clear, all of that has been fulfilled and surpassed in Jesus.

Verse 27 unpacks verse 26, and indeed is one of the greatest MESSIANIC prophecies of all time!

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Now here's the trick and the irony of all this. YOU claim to read this literally, and yet DON'T LITERALLY believe the passage when it says Israel's redemption will be achieved within the 490 years.

You've got to see the irony when I say I *DON'T* read this literally but I DO BELIEVE that Israel's redemption was achieved within the 490 'years'! (Or fractions of time). That is, Jesus DID wipe away our sin, achieve our redemption, bring in everlasting righteousness, and seal up vision and prophecy and anoint the Most Holy Place. Jesus totally fulfils and transforms the Old Covenant.

Yet there's a last little trick to this passage which allows us to insert not just 2000 years, but 20,000 years if it takes the Lord that long to return! 'In the middle of the 'seven' he will put and end to sacrifice.... by his own sacrifice. Did you catch that? Jesus died in the *middle* of the 70th week. That is, history itself was fulfilled by the gospel when the Lord died and rose again. The game was won. We're in over time. That's the 3.5 years. The rest of history is just 'half a seven'!

Revelation picks up the number symbolism of the 3.5 years and plays with again and again to tell John's generation and all generations that follow how to live in this evil age. The Last Days will be evil, and we've lived in them since Acts 2. We're in the three-and-a-half years right now. So in a sense this passage *is* open ended after all. But there's no anti-Christs here, no world governments, and definitely no third temple. This is all about the gospel! Imagine that!? ;-)

So Revelation 11:3 reminds us that Jesus sent out his disciples to witness to the Kingdom, and they went side by side, two witnesses. This is symbolism that the church MUST remain a witness for the 3.5 years, however long that actually turns out to be. (About 2000 years and counting since Acts).

Revelation 12:6,14,17 reminds us that God will protect the church throughout this age, and give it times of rest when most needed. He will not let us be persecuted to extinction.

Revelation 13:5 reminds us that there will *pretty much* always be blasphemous beastly rulers, like the governments of yesterday's Communist Russia, today's Communist China, North Korea, and some Muslim nations. It all fits.

John wanted *his* generation to hear and obey, and he expected all future generations to hear and obey the message of Revelation. Because it is a sermon about the gospel, just as Daniel 9 is.

And ultimately, the gospel guarantees that the Lord will return one day to consummate his kingdom and bring all the current spiritual realities of God's Kingdom into their full, physical expression in the new heavens and new earth.

 

[eclipsenow]

None of those references directly say that we become parts of already-existing Israel. You are making an interpretation of the verses.

In Romans, 11, I think the analogy that Paul was using was not intended as Gentiles becoming part of Israel the nation. I think the idea was that gentiles were outside of God's covenant with Israel to be a chosen people.

But that through Christ, the new covenant offered to all, we can be of God's chosen people from all kindreds, tongues, peoples (Daniel 7:14, Revelation 7:9) in the kingdom of God, not that we become a part of the nation of Israel.

Revelation 21: 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Hi Doug,
keep it up with Bible2. I think I like your phrasing better. Christians are not in the nation of Israel any more than Australia is in the nation of Israel. The word is being used in its covenant sense, because Jesus fully new and prophesied in Matt24 that Israel the nation (and temple!) was coming to an and in AD70.

 

[JLB777]

Hi again JBL,
I appreciate that you've probably been raised with a futurist reading of Daniel 9 as a 'gospel truth', but I honestly don't see how verses 26 and 27 are discussing anything different. They're discussing the same thing: the destruction of the temple. Verses 24 and 25 make it clear that Israel is going to be completely and utterly redeemed and saved from sin by the end of the 70th week.

There's no way to smuggle an extra 285.7 'sevens' into the text! (An extra 2000 years!) Sorry pal, but everything happens in Seventy Sevens. It says so right there in verse 24!

Before you go and insert a (still yet hypothetical) *third* temple into this picture (without any biblical reason to do so!), just remember how horrified and confused Daniel must have felt when the angel promises the restoration and rebuilding of Israel and Jerusalem and the temple... only to have it ALL destroyed again! How shocking! How bizarre? God's going to fix all Israel's problems with sin by letting Israel rebuild Jerusalem and the temple only to have it all.... destroyed? What? WHY?

But here's the thing. There's only one temple being destroyed here. That's the one that was first promised to be rebuilt! If you want this to be about a (hypothetical) THIRD temple, please show me the verses that discuss the temple being rebuilt... AGAIN! It's just not there.

Rather than trying to insert 2000 years into an imaginary 'gap' between the end of verse 26 and the beginning of verse 27, can't you see that verse 26 quickly summarises what is going to happen and 27 just unpacks it a bit more? Verse 26 talks about the destruction of the sanctuary and desolations have been decreed. Verse 27 just unpacks how that will occur and even uses the word 'desolation' again. Verse 26 says "AFTER the 62 sevens" (which is in the middle of the Seventieth Seven!) the Anointed One will be put to death. Verse 27 unpacks that when it says "until the end that is decreed is poured out on him".

Jesus death is the abomination that causes the desolation of the sacrificial system. It no longer works after Jesus death. The blood of sheep and goats was only ever looking forward to the real sacrifice for sins, Jesus blood.

The Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem in AD70 because God knew we would be tempted to keep trusting in the temple. That's what Hebrews 8 is all about. "It is fading" refers to the temple system. But, as Hebrews makes clear, all of that has been fulfilled and surpassed in Jesus.

Verse 27 unpacks verse 26, and indeed is one of the greatest MESSIANIC prophecies of all time!

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Now here's the trick and the irony of all this. YOU claim to read this literally, and yet DON'T LITERALLY believe the passage when it says Israel's redemption will be achieved within the 490 years.

You've got to see the irony when I say I *DON'T* read this literally but I DO BELIEVE that Israel's redemption was achieved within the 490 'years'! (Or fractions of time). That is, Jesus DID wipe away our sin, achieve our redemption, bring in everlasting righteousness, and seal up vision and prophecy and anoint the Most Holy Place. Jesus totally fulfils and transforms the Old Covenant.

Yet there's a last little trick to this passage which allows us to insert not just 2000 years, but 20,000 years if it takes the Lord that long to return! 'In the middle of the 'seven' he will put and end to sacrifice.... by his own sacrifice. Did you catch that? Jesus died in the *middle* of the 70th week. That is, history itself was fulfilled by the gospel when the Lord died and rose again. The game was won. We're in over time. That's the 3.5 years. The rest of history is just 'half a seven'!

Revelation picks up the number symbolism of the 3.5 years and plays with again and again to tell John's generation and all generations that follow how to live in this evil age. The Last Days will be evil, and we've lived in them since Acts 2. We're in the three-and-a-half years right now. So in a sense this passage *is* open ended after all. But there's no anti-Christs here, no world governments, and definitely no third temple. This is all about the gospel! Imagine that!? ;-)

So Revelation 11:3 reminds us that Jesus sent out his disciples to witness to the Kingdom, and they went side by side, two witnesses. This is symbolism that the church MUST remain a witness for the 3.5 years, however long that actually turns out to be. (About 2000 years and counting since Acts).

Revelation 12:6,14,17 reminds us that God will protect the church throughout this age, and give it times of rest when most needed. He will not let us be persecuted to extinction.

Revelation 13:5 reminds us that there will *pretty much* always be blasphemous beastly rulers, like the governments of yesterday's Communist Russia, today's Communist China, North Korea, and some Muslim nations. It all fits.

John wanted *his* generation to hear and obey, and he expected all future generations to hear and obey the message of Revelation. Because it is a sermon about the gospel, just as Daniel 9 is.

And ultimately, the gospel guarantees that the Lord will return one day to consummate his kingdom and bring all the current spiritual realities of God's Kingdom into their full, physical expression in the new heavens and new earth.

You have not addressed the scriptures that speak for themselves.

I have clearly shown from the scriptures themselves the events of Daniel's 70 weeks.

You on the other hand have done nothing but spew your opinion over and over, giving no scripture at all.

Use the scriptures in reference, Daniel 9:24-27 to dispute.

Show us your position from the scriptures!

No more opinion! Otherwise I will conclude that you are just blowing alot of hot air!

Show us where Messiah's death was the end of the 70th week!

Sorry, nothing you have said makes any sense!


JLB

 

[eclipsenow]

You have not addressed the scriptures that speak for themselves.

I have clearly shown from the scriptures themselves the events of Daniel's 70 weeks.

You on the other hand have done nothing but spew your opinion over and over, giving no scripture at all.

Use the scriptures in reference, Daniel 9:24-27 to dispute.

Show us your position from the scriptures!

No more opinion! Otherwise I will conclude that you are just blowing alot of hot air!

Show us where Messiah's death was the end of the 70th week!

Sorry, nothing you have said makes any sense!


JLB

Hey buddy,
I've dealt with you honestly and given you all the information you need. If you choose to click your ruby slippers together 3 times and whisper "Daniel 9 IS about the future, Daniel 9 IS about the future!" in denial, then that's your business. Others can judge whether or not you are dealing with my arguments substantively. The question is blatantly clear. Can a literal reading of Daniel 9 smuggle in a 3rd temple and 2000 years? The answer is most definitely a resounding NO! and it's what led Dr Kim Riddlebarger to give up his Dispensationalist futurist reading of the passage. Because a futurist reading of Daniel 9 absolutely DEFIES a literal reading of the 490 years.

So you can go back and check out my post and read it another few times to try and understand, and then try another more thought out post. Or you can run home to mummy. It's your choice.

 

[Douggg]

Hey buddy,
I've dealt with you honestly and given you all the information you need. If you choose to click your ruby slippers together 3 times and whisper "Daniel 9 IS about the future, Daniel 9 IS about the future!" in denial, then that's your business. Others can judge whether or not you are dealing with my arguments substantively. The question is blatantly clear. Can a literal reading of Daniel 9 smuggle in a 3rd temple and 2000 years? The answer is most definitely a resounding NO! and it's what led Dr Kim Riddlebarger to give up his Dispensationalist futurist reading of the passage. Because a futurist reading of Daniel 9 absolutely DEFIES a literal reading of the 490 years.

So you can go back and check out my post and read it another few times to try and understand, and then try another more thought out post. Or you can run home to mummy. It's your choice.

You have mis-identified the issue - as being a literal reading or not. The futurist reading is literal. The issue is and difference between you interpretation and that of futurists is over whether the 490 years are unbroken or interrupted.

Since history with 100% accuracy show that the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and Jesus was crucified 33 AD - that is more than 7 years between the two. Which means the 490 years could not have been unbroken.

The problem with asserting that Jesus was the temple - is that after the temple is destroyed, the Prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many for 7 years. If Jesus is that temple and is destroyed (and resurrected), he was not here on earth to make the covenant or stop the sacrifices midway through the 7 years - Jesus was not here during the 7 years following his death and resurrection, he was in heaven.


Doug

 

[JLB777]

Hey buddy,
I've dealt with you honestly and given you all the information you need. If you choose to click your ruby slippers together 3 times and whisper "Daniel 9 IS about the future, Daniel 9 IS about the future!" in denial, then that's your business. Others can judge whether or not you are dealing with my arguments substantively. The question is blatantly clear. Can a literal reading of Daniel 9 smuggle in a 3rd temple and 2000 years? The answer is most definitely a resounding NO! and it's what led Dr Kim Riddlebarger to give up his Dispensationalist futurist reading of the passage. Because a futurist reading of Daniel 9 absolutely DEFIES a literal reading of the 490 years.

So you can go back and check out my post and read it another few times to try and understand, and then try another more thought out post. Or you can run home to mummy. It's your choice.

Thanks for your answer. I will take the lack of scripture as evidence that your position is based on Hot Air!


Thanks, JLB

 

[eclipsenow]

Thanks for your answer. I will take the lack of scripture as evidence that your position is based on Hot Air!


Thanks, JLB

I sincerely apologise for my tone in the previous post. I had not slept well the previous night. Please forgive me.

But I'm still confused why you think it is my turn to answer questions? You have a lot to explain about your position on Daniel 9, so I stand by my request that you go back and answer this post with more substantive answers than the trite side-stepping you've been serving up. I've copied the post you have not addressed in below, just to remind other lurkers what's happening here.

I'd appreciate an honest attempt to answer these before I answer any further requests from you.

*****

Hi again JBL,
I appreciate that you've probably been raised with a futurist reading of Daniel 9 as a 'gospel truth', but I honestly don't see how verses 26 and 27 are discussing anything different. They're discussing the same thing: the destruction of the temple. Verses 24 and 25 make it clear that Israel is going to be completely and utterly redeemed and saved from sin by the end of the 70th week.

There's no way to smuggle an extra 285.7 'sevens' into the text! (An extra 2000 years!) Sorry pal, but everything happens in Seventy Sevens. It says so right there in verse 24!

Before you go and insert a (still yet hypothetical) *third* temple into this picture (without any biblical reason to do so!), just remember how horrified and confused Daniel must have felt when the angel promises the restoration and rebuilding of Israel and Jerusalem and the temple... only to have it ALL destroyed again! How shocking! How bizarre? God's going to fix all Israel's problems with sin by letting Israel rebuild Jerusalem and the temple only to have it all.... destroyed? What? WHY?

But here's the thing. There's only one temple being destroyed here. That's the one that was first promised to be rebuilt! If you want this to be about a (hypothetical) THIRD temple, please show me the verses that discuss the temple being rebuilt... AGAIN! It's just not there.

Rather than trying to insert 2000 years into an imaginary 'gap' between the end of verse 26 and the beginning of verse 27, can't you see that verse 26 quickly summarises what is going to happen and 27 just unpacks it a bit more? Verse 26 talks about the destruction of the sanctuary and desolations have been decreed. Verse 27 just unpacks how that will occur and even uses the word 'desolation' again. Verse 26 says "AFTER the 62 sevens" (which is in the middle of the Seventieth Seven!) the Anointed One will be put to death. Verse 27 unpacks that when it says "until the end that is decreed is poured out on him".

Jesus death is the abomination that causes the desolation of the sacrificial system. It no longer works after Jesus death. The blood of sheep and goats was only ever looking forward to the real sacrifice for sins, Jesus blood.

The Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem in AD70 because God knew we would be tempted to keep trusting in the temple. That's what Hebrews 8 is all about. "It is fading" refers to the temple system. But, as Hebrews makes clear, all of that has been fulfilled and surpassed in Jesus.

Verse 27 unpacks verse 26, and indeed is one of the greatest MESSIANIC prophecies of all time!

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Now here's the trick and the irony of all this. YOU claim to read this literally, and yet DON'T LITERALLY believe the passage when it says Israel's redemption will be achieved within the 490 years.

You've got to see the irony when I say I *DON'T* read this literally but I DO BELIEVE that Israel's redemption was achieved within the 490 'years'! (Or fractions of time). That is, Jesus DID wipe away our sin, achieve our redemption, bring in everlasting righteousness, and seal up vision and prophecy and anoint the Most Holy Place. Jesus totally fulfils and transforms the Old Covenant.

Yet there's a last little trick to this passage which allows us to insert not just 2000 years, but 20,000 years if it takes the Lord that long to return! 'In the middle of the 'seven' he will put and end to sacrifice.... by his own sacrifice. Did you catch that? Jesus died in the *middle* of the 70th week. That is, history itself was fulfilled by the gospel when the Lord died and rose again. The game was won. We're in over time. That's the 3.5 years. The rest of history is just 'half a seven'!

Revelation picks up the number symbolism of the 3.5 years and plays with again and again to tell John's generation and all generations that follow how to live in this evil age. The Last Days will be evil, and we've lived in them since Acts 2. We're in the three-and-a-half years right now. So in a sense this passage *is* open ended after all. But there's no anti-Christs here, no world governments, and definitely no third temple. This is all about the gospel! Imagine that!? ;-)

So Revelation 11:3 reminds us that Jesus sent out his disciples to witness to the Kingdom, and they went side by side, two witnesses. This is symbolism that the church MUST remain a witness for the 3.5 years, however long that actually turns out to be. (About 2000 years and counting since Acts).

Revelation 12:6,14,17 reminds us that God will protect the church throughout this age, and give it times of rest when most needed. He will not let us be persecuted to extinction.

Revelation 13:5 reminds us that there will *pretty much* always be blasphemous beastly rulers, like the governments of yesterday's Communist Russia, today's Communist China, North Korea, and some Muslim nations. It all fits.

John wanted *his* generation to hear and obey, and he expected all future generations to hear and obey the message of Revelation. Because it is a sermon about the gospel, just as Daniel 9 is.

And ultimately, the gospel guarantees that the Lord will return one day to consummate his kingdom and bring all the current spiritual realities of God's Kingdom into their full, physical expression in the new heavens and new earth.