The 2300 Days Are Wrong

[Adventist Dissident]

I have read over the post is this thread and I keep seeing people dancing around the issue, so I will say it right here the problem with the sancturary doctirine is the 2300 day. supporters and detractors can fight all they want about hebrews 8,9,10 and will argure until the sun come up, untill you deal with the 2300 days and the assumtions that go with it, you will not put this to an end. the following link is provided to look at some of the assumptions.

http://www.2300days.com/

 

[Adventist Dissident]

the assumtion that the 2300 day beging in 475 bc and is linked with Daniel 9, Must be looked at, this assumption I assert if false. An nother issue that must be looked at is if Daniel 8 tell us when to start the prophecy. I assert that it does. If you move the start date for the 2300 days at all you loose the sancturary doctrine and anything attached to it. If the premise is false is the conclusion must also be false.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

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Daniel 8 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


Daniel 8

Daniel's Vision of a Ram and a Goat

1 In the third year of King Belshazzar's reign, I, Daniel, had a vision, after the one that had already appeared to me. 2 In my vision I saw myself in the citadel of Susa in the province of Elam; in the vision I was beside the Ulai Canal. 3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long. One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched the ram as he charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against him, and none could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great.
5 As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6 He came toward the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at him in great rage. 7 I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against him; the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.
9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. 12 Because of rebellion, the host of the saints [a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled&#8212;the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"
14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."


The Interpretation of the Vision

15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice from the Ulai calling, "Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision."
17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. "Son of man," he said to me, "understand that the vision concerns the time of the end."
18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.
19 He said: "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. [b] 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.
23 "In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
26 "The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future." 27 I, Daniel, was exhausted and lay ill for several days. Then I got up and went about the king's business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding.

Footnotes:

1. <LI id=fen-NIV-21974a>Daniel 8:12 Or rebellion, the armies
2. Daniel 8:19 Or because the end will be at the appointed time

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[Adventist Dissident]

Daniel 8 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

Daniel 8


1In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
2And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
3Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
5And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Interpretation
15And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. 27And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I have read over the post is this thread and I keep seeing people dancing around the issue, so I will say it right here the problem with the sancturary doctirine is the 2300 day. supporters and detractors can fight all they want about hebrews 8,9,10 and will argure until the sun come up, untill you deal with the 2300 days and the assumtions that go with it, you will not put this to an end. the following link is provided to look at some of the assumptions.

http://www.2300days.com/

Well there actually is another way. I have seen it asked many times but have never seen an adequate answer given. The question is what does the Adventist view of the IJ offer Christianity?

It is an elementary step in asking that question but it is really hard for the TSDA's to answer. Christianity as a religion has always believed in God's Judgment. So the IJ offers nothing there. Christianity believes in the relationship of the believer to God through faith. Again the IJ offers nothing there. If one puts forth the newer Adventist interpretation that the IJ is for the rest of the Universe to see that God is Just in saving who He saves, that again offers nothing to Christianity as we are not part of the rest of the universe that is privy to those supposed answers.

If you suppose that Jesus did not go to be with the Father at the accension then the IJ takes away from Christianity. Because the Bible asserts that He ever lives to intercede for us. If the IJ places the movement into the Most Holy Place in 1844 what effect would that have upon anyone on earth? It would have none which leaves about the only thing that the TSDA can claim happened with the IJ and 1844 and that is that it facilitated the founding of the SDA church.

Thus you see just why this doctrine is still so important. It is thought to indicate the divine call of the SDA church as well as the divine inspiration of a certain prophet.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

now that we have read the passage in both the NIV and the KJV we will proceed. I want you to first cover the sequence of event. notice
1. the Ram
2. The Goat
3. The Great horn
4. The 4 broken horns
5 the little horn
6. the trampling of the sancturary/temple
7. the cleasing of the sancturary/temple
8. question by saint
9. Answer by another saint
10. explination of Vision

 

[Adventist Dissident]

now that we have read the passage in both the NIV and the KJV we will proceed. I want you to first cover the sequence of event. notice
1. the Ram
2. The Goat
3. The Great horn
4. The 4 broken horns
5 the little horn
6. the trampling of the sancturary/temple
7. the cleasing of the sancturary/temple
8. question by daniel
9. Answer by Angel
10. explination of Vision

lets focus on Daniel 8:13


King James Version (KJV) Daniel 8:13

13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

I want you to notice the question asked by one saint to another. the question is NOT "how long is the vision", rather " how long is the vision concerning...." conerning what

a. the daily sacrifice.
b. the transgression of desolation
c. the sancturary trampled underfoot
d. the host trampled underfoot

Notice this is specific answer. The answer applies only to what has just been described. prior to that Daniel 8:9:-12

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

QUESTION:

WHEN AND BY WHOM WAS, THE DAILY SACRIFICE TAKEN AWAY, THE TRANGRESSION OF DESOLATION , THE SANCTRUARY TRAMPLED UNDERFOOT, THE HOST TRAMPLED UNDERFOOT?

ANSWER: THE LITTLE HORN POWER. this only applies to the "little horn power" period of the prophecy, which is after 457 which the SDA chruch says starts the 2300 days.

Question: how long is the period going to last, that the little horn power has his way with the temple and the hosts
Answer: for 2300 days then the sancturary shall be cleansed.



QUESTION: When is the period of the "little horn power"

After , the ram (persia), after the goat(greece), after the great horn(alexander), after the 4 divided horns(divided greek empire), little horn power (what ever that is)

Question: When doses the SDA say to start the 2300 days"

Answer : 457 bc

Question: during what period is 457 bc?
Answer: the Ram period:

Question: when does the little horn power period begin?
Answer: at the "latter days of the divided greek empire"
23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

question: how can SDA's maintain this postion of 457.bc when the text tells us it is at another time???

 

[Jimlarmore]

Thus you see just why this doctrine is still so important. It is thought to indicate the divine call of the SDA church as well as the divine inspiration of a certain prophet.

I really don't see it that way. Either the IJ is true or it isn't. My problem with it as we accept it is that you can't support everything by scripture. I see the 2300 days as being pretty solid prophetically. I do believe that the sancturary was and is the tool to unlock all of our concerns and it is the ceremonies that pointed to Christ from it's inception and now at His intercessionary work. Then eventually to the closed door/veil where the close of probation will happen just before Christ comes back.

The key to all of this is in the sanctuary and what happened there.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[digdeep]

One thing I am convinced of is that the Little Horn is NOT Antiochus Epiphanes.

ONE problem with interpreting this as being Antiochus Epiphanes is that Jesus placed the fulfillment of the "Abomination of Desolation" future to His time. Matt 24:15


Another reason for this NOT being Antiochus Epiphanes is "And out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land."

Antiochus was FAR from exceedingly great. This is from Wikipedia: He was a son of Antiochus III the Great and brother of Seleucus IV Philopator. Originally named Mithradates, he assumed the name Antiochus either upon his accession to the throne or after the death of his elder brother Antiochus. Notable events during his reign include the near-conquest of Egypt, which was halted by the threat of Roman intervention, and the beginning of the Jewish revolt of the Maccabees

Antiochus thrown out of Egypt by ROME. It appears that after this he decided to take his humilation out on the jews. His descration lasted about 3 years, around 1059 - 1095 days, NOT 3 1/2years or 1150 days.

DD

 

[Jimlarmore]

There is no problem with ariving at 1844 with the 2300 days and doing it from scripture. The problem is what really happened at that time, i.e. 1844? Scripturally, so far I have not been able to specify for sure what did happen then. I'm open to any suggestions from anyone's interpretation of the Bible on this. Cleansing does involve judgement as it did in the sanctuarial ceremonies of ancient Israel but it's not a rock solid concept from scripture for this to happen in heaven.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I guess i have 2 view about who it could be

1. Might be Antiocous
2. Might be Rome with future fullment to be completed


What I DO KNOW is that the 2300 day ONLY applies to that period and 457 bc, the start date for the SDA interperpatation of the 2300 days is before the little horn power and there is no sancturay to be trampled for part of the time at the beginning, it is left untoached for 300 years, then disappers after about 500 years.
the little horn power was not defiling it at the beginning of the SDA interpetation of the 2300 days, because it was not a major power.

 

[Bourbaki]

In a sentence, these papers argue that the rationale of SDA historicists on the relationship between the 2300 days in Dn8:14 and the 70 weeks in Dn9:24 involves the intricate interdependence of multiple invalid assumptions, ...

http://www.2300days.com/

So why not just forget all the confusion and exegete Daniel 8 properly? Actually, it has already been done. All that remains is to simply concede that The Ends of Time commentary is correct.

 

[Jimlarmore]

I guess i have 2 view about who it could be

1. Might be Antiocous
2. Might be Rome with future fullment to be completed


What I DO KNOW is that the 2300 day ONLY applies to that period and 457 bc, the start date for the SDA interperpatation of the 2300 days is before the little horn power and there is no sancturay to be trampled for part of the time at the beginning, it is left untoached for 300 years, then disappers after about 500 years.
the little horn power was not defiling it at the beginning of the SDA interpetation of the 2300 days, because it was not a major power.

I'm not sure that we need to require the little horn's activity of defiling the temple reach all the way back to 457 B.C. just because he is listed in context for the cleansing of the temple. This is the longest prophecy "time wise" of the entire Bible and includes the messianic prophecy. I think you have room on both ends of it for a wiggle of activity that does not fit the main theme of the contextual cleansing. 457B.C. is the correct starting time for this prophecy.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I'm not sure that we need to require the little horn's activity of defiling the temple reach all the way back to 457 B.C. just because he is listed in context for the cleansing of the temple. This is the longest prophecy "time wise" of the entire Bible and includes the messianic prophecy. I think you have room on both ends of it for a wiggle of activity that does not fit the main theme of the contextual cleansing. 457B.C. is the correct starting time for this prophecy

Jim the date of 457 bc is an assumtion. it comes off as arrogant to come in and say that the date is 457 bc just because you say so. give me a reason we should believe it jim, the text tells us that the 2300 day ONLY applies to the "little horn power period" show me from SOMETHING IN THE TEXT that says start it in 457 bc. I agree we start the 70 weeks in 457, but where is the link between the 70 weeks and the 2300 days? it is not there?

As far as the "longest time prophecy in the bible" I will not even get into that. it could be day for a year, but the link to 457bc cannot be proved from the scripture. what can be proven is the the 2300 days only applies to the "little horn power period"?

Q: How long shall be the vision concerning, the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

A: for 2300 day then shall the sancturary be cleansed
Obsovere the 2300 days only applies to the specific period described by daniel : the daily sacrifice, the trangression of desolation , the trodding underfoot of the sancturay and the host.

Daniel 8:9-12 (kjv) tells us when that period is

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

 

[tall73]

One thing I am convinced of is that the Little Horn is NOT Antiochus Epiphanes.

ONE problem with interpreting this as being Antiochus Epiphanes is that Jesus placed the fulfillment of the "Abomination of Desolation" future to His time. Matt 24:15


Another reason for this NOT being Antiochus Epiphanes is "And out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the BeautifulLand."

Antiochus was FAR from exceedingly great. This is from Wikipedia: He was a son of Antiochus III the Great and brother of Seleucus IV Philopator. Originally named Mithradates, he assumed the name Antiochus either upon his accession to the throne or after the death of his elder brother Antiochus. Notable events during his reign include the near-conquest of Egypt, which was halted by the threat of Roman intervention, and the beginning of the Jewish revolt of the Maccabees

Antiochus thrown out of Egypt by ROME. It appears that after this he decided to take his humilation out on the jews. His descration lasted about 3 years, around 1059 - 1095 days, NOT 3 1/2years or 1150 days.

DD

I have problems with the antiochus view too. But whoever you assign the little horn to be the issue is that the cleansing in v. 14 is from the work of the little horn. Nowhere does it say that the cleansing is from the sins of the saints as Adventists try to make it say. And the text does seem to indicate that the trampling ceases at the TERMINATION of the 2300 days. Yet folks cannot point to how the RC, the usual application of this by the Adventists, changed their activities in 1844.

 

[tall73]

As to the cleansing, the day of atonement was not the only cleansing of the sanctuary. A closer parallel in this case is found in 2 Chronicles, during the reign of Hezekiah. The temple had been neglected and Ahaz had removed some of the furniture, including the brass altar, according to the account in Kings. As a result the temple needed to be cleansed from the desecrating influences and have the proper function restored.

2Ch 29:15 And they gathered their brethren, and sanctified themselves, and came, according to the commandment of the king, by the words of the LORD, to cleanse the house of the LORD.
2Ch 29:16 And the priests went into the inner part of the house of the LORD, to cleanse it, and brought out all the uncleanness that they found in the temple of the LORD into the court of the house of the LORD. And the Levites took it, to carry it out abroad into the brook Kidron.
2Ch 29:17 Now they began on the first day of the first month to sanctify, and on the eighth day of the month came they to the porch of the LORD: so they sanctified the house of the LORD in eight days; and in the sixteenth day of the first month they made an end.
2Ch 29:18 Then they went in to Hezekiah the king, and said, We have cleansed all the house of the LORD, and the altar of burnt offering, with all the vessels thereof, and the shewbread table, with all the vessels thereof.
2Ch 29:19 Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.
2Ch 29:20 Then Hezekiah the king rose early, and gathered the rulers of the city, and went up to the house of the LORD.
2Ch 29:21 And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar of the LORD.


The sacrifices at that time included the ram and the he-goat. These were the same animals mentioned in Daniel 8. And here, as in Daniel 8, the reason for the cleansing was desecration, not ritual atonement.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Jim the date of 457 bc is an assumtion. it comes off as arrogant to come in and say that the date is 457 bc just because you say so. give me a reason we should believe it jim, the text tells us that the 2300 day ONLY applies to the "little horn power period" show me from SOMETHING IN THE TEXT that says start it in 457 bc. I agree we start the 70 weeks in 457, but where is the link between the 70 weeks and the 2300 days? it is not there?

The only way you can make sense of Daniel's messianic prophecy in Dan 9 is in light of the 2300 days portrayed in Dan 8. The reason I say this is two fold. One they are tied together in the way it all happened. Two, the sanctuary cannot be cleansed or set a right without the messiah and His sacrifice. Textually for the IJ , the main biblical texts quoted by Seventh-day Adventists in support of the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement are Daniel 7:9-10, 1 Peter 4:17 and Revelation 20:12.
As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:9, 10 (NIV) For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (NIV) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Revelation 20:12 (NIV)

As far as the "longest time prophecy in the bible" I will not even get into that. it could be day for a year, but the link to 457bc cannot be proved from the scripture. what can be proven is the the 2300 days only applies to the "little horn power period"?

Q: How long shall be the vision concerning, the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

A: for 2300 day then shall the sancturary be cleansed
Obsovere the 2300 days only applies to the specific period described by daniel : the daily sacrifice, the trangression of desolation , the trodding underfoot of the sancturay and the host.

Daniel 8:9-12 (kjv) tells us when that period is

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The problem you have with this is that there never was a power that fits exactly with 2300 days in a literal sense. If you think it was Antiochus Epiphanes he didn't wax great in all directions and he only lasted for about 3 years in his run to terrorise Israel and the sanctuary. 2300 days is 6.38 years over twice what he ruled.

The obvious conclusion is that Dan 8 and 9 are connected contextually to have the same start date of 457B.C. The way the text reads it flows that way in the narrative as Daniel is left in chapter 8 after receiving the "vision" of the 2300 days without the interpretation or understanding given. Later Gabriel comes in chapter 9 to give him/Daniel that understanding of the last vision and gives him additional information which included the messianic prophecy.

As far as the little horn goes and his effect on the daily and the sanctuary being cleansed. We need to realize that the little horn goes all the way to the end of time. It had it's seed of a beginning even in 457 B.C. We also have to go deeper into this by realizing that the daily could also include the mediatorial work of Christ in heaven . It was the blood of the sacrifice that took away sins in the earthly sanctuary. So many prophecies have dualistic themes and could apply to expanded eras of time.

The little horn did nothing historcially 6.38 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to cleanse the sanctuary because he didn't exist yet. However, the little horn power had a seed of beginning in the pagan powers of the other nations represented by the ram and the goat. Now/today, we have Christ as our high priest offering His blood for our sins before the throne. The little horn still interferrs with this by telling Christians that they have to confess to a man and not thru the mediator/Christ. This is part of the trampling that continues to go on in heaven.

My problem is to show from scripture what happened in 1844. The time line reaches there but we are left silent from there on. It would be really nice if the 2300 days had been given as a repeat to us in Rev 10 or 11 like the 1260 was.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Adventist Dissident]

The only way you can make sense of Daniel's messianic prophecy in Dan 9 is in light of the 2300 days portrayed in Dan 8.

This I disagree with, DANEIL 9 IS A STAND ALONE PROPHECY NOT DEPENDANT ON DANIEL 8. THAT IS A MYTH. I WILL SHOW YOU.

daniel 9 open with daniel saying that he understood the prophecy given to Jeremiah, that the Desolation of Jerusalem would last 70 years. Notice it had nothing to do with the 2300 days. it was 13 years later.



What might have prompted Daniel prompmted daniel to be worried about the temple, he did not understand the prophecy. Daniel might have thought that the prophecy was about the temple in jereusalem the whole entire time and that is why he was depressed, and why he makes a point the discovery in Jeremiah. When he finally understands then new info is given, the 70 weeks. The assumption that the 70 weeks are connected to the 2300 days is not valid, The 70 weeks were given as a as a last oppertunity for isreal to repent. They are connected to the 70 years in captivity.



70 years in captivity -
70 weeks of years as a last chance for Daniel and his people.

Notice the parallel to the 70 years of captivity and the 70 weeks of years. this is no accident

Jeremiah 29:10 King James Version (KJV) Public Domain
10For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.


King James Version (KJV)Jeremiah 25:11,12

11And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
12And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.


2 Chronicles 36:21
21To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
this passage is a direct reference to the jubliee year if you take 70 jubliees you get 490 years. The land rested 70 years because of the disregard of 70 jubliee cycles . the 70 weeks is 70 jubliee cycle and a way of saying one more chance

The reason I say this is two fold. One they are tied together in the way it all happened. Two, the sanctuary cannot be cleansed or set a right without the messiah and His sacrifice. Textually for the IJ , the main biblical texts quoted by Seventh-day Adventists in support of the doctrine of the Investigative Judgement are Daniel 7:9-10, 1 Peter 4:17 and Revelation 20:12.
As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:9, 10 (NIV) For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 (NIV) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Revelation 20:12 (NIV)

The problem you have with this is that there never was a power that fits exactly with 2300 days in a literal sense. If you think it was Antiochus Epiphanes he didn't wax great in all directions and he only lasted for about 3 years in his run to terrorise Israel and the sanctuary. 2300 days is 6.38 years over twice what he ruled.

The obvious conclusion is that Dan 8 and 9 are connected contextually to have the same start date of 457B.C. The way the text reads it flows that way in the narrative as Daniel is left in chapter 8 after receiving the "vision" of the 2300 days without the interpretation or understanding given. Later Gabriel comes in chapter 9 to give him/Daniel that understanding of the last vision and gives him additional information which included the messianic prophecy.

As far as the little horn goes and his effect on the daily and the sanctuary being cleansed. We need to realize that the little horn goes all the way to the end of time. It had it's seed of a beginning even in 457 B.C. We also have to go deeper into this by realizing that the daily could also include the mediatorial work of Christ in heaven . It was the blood of the sacrifice that took away sins in the earthly sanctuary. So many prophecies have dualistic themes and could apply to expanded eras of time.

The little horn did nothing historcially 6.38 years after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to cleanse the sanctuary because he didn't exist yet. However, the little horn power had a seed of beginning in the pagan powers of the other nations represented by the ram and the goat. Now/today, we have Christ as our high priest offering His blood for our sins before the throne. The little horn still interferrs with this by telling Christians that they have to confess to a man and not thru the mediator/Christ. This is part of the trampling that continues to go on in heaven.

My problem is to show from scripture what happened in 1844. The time line reaches there but we are left silent from there on. It would be really nice if the 2300 days had been given as a repeat to us in Rev 10 or 11 like the 1260 was.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

The little horn still interferrs with this by telling Christians that they have to confess to a man and not thru the mediator/Christ. This is part of the trampling that continues to go on in heaven.

My problem is to show from scripture what happened in 1844. The time line reaches there but we are left silent from there on. It would be really nice if the 2300 days had been given as a repeat to us in Rev 10 or 11 like the 1260 was.

So the little horn is still trampling the temple in heaven even after the end of your 2300 years and interestingly enough was also trampling the temple by saying that man had to confess to a man not through Christ from the beginning of your 2300 years which is 400 years before Christ's incarnation.

So ultimately nothing in your view works with history or reality. The 2300 years does not end anything (as you say the trampling continues), the beginning is a trampling of something that know one had any knowledge of for over 400 years and it is attributed to a Papal organization about 600 years before that organization began.

Yet you don't think AE works well enough. Interesting indeed.