The 2 types of Righteousness

[ralliann]

Ok.. sorry, I've lost the thread at this point.

LOL, now so have I. I think it is important today to distinguish because of what people teach today about the law. Like here.

Righteousness of Israel in the eyes of the nations round about...

De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

vs
Ge 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[Arleigh Crisman]

If my dad tells me to sweep the driveway, but I mow the lawn instead. was I righteous? Both were noble, but one was not done in obedience.
Matthew 7;21,22,23,

 

[ralliann]

If my dad tells me to sweep the driveway, but I mow the lawn instead. was I righteous? Both were noble, but one was not done in obedience.
Matthew 7;21,22,23,

Though an inexact analogy it is similar........

What if you went and did both these to your neighbor's driveway and lawn? Or told your neighbor
To sweep and mow your fathers driveway and mow his lawn?

Paul speaks about different obligations (religion) for Jews and Gentiles.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

Ga 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Ga 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Especially when reading the Gospels to the Jew's, people tend today to put law which jew's are judged by upon Gentiles.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


De 29:21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law: {are: Heb. is }
De 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is untrue... Only in an existential view is sinning against man a sin against God. This happens to people who tend to over-spiritualize things. If I lie and say something mean about my brother; I sinned against my brother by instigating a problem. The lie itself is a sin against God, causing my brother trouble is a sin against my brother. There is a big difference and they both should be addressed.

Define sin.

It is among other things, always, rebellion against God, or it is not wrong to do.

Look at David's, "Against thee only have I sinned." when he had sinned against the whole nation and several individuals within it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

/2 all that proves is that David was being very responsible and repentant. However he may only have sinned against God. Unless you find a place where he says otherwise.

Where who says otherwise —God?

Well, let's see ... Lust of the eyes, Coveting his neighbor's wife, seducing her or imposing his status upon her for her cooperation, conspiracy to murder her husband (i.e. involving others in his plot, who otherwise would not have done it), murder of her husband who had done nothing but be loyal to the King beyond the call of duty, failing to lead his people in spiritual integrity —I'm pretty sure you could come up with some on your own, were you so motivated.

And when the prophet Nathan showed up, yeah, you can believe that David had sinned against the people according to the figure that God used to convict him of his sin.

 

[Niels]

I see the distinction that you are trying to make, but it rains on the just and the unjust. The difference isn't that one will get sick while the other remains healthy. It's that one will have a stronger relationship with God during times of illness that may befall them both. If somebody doesn't get sick, that's wonderful but it isn't because of how they perceive their salvation. Paul's affliction, for instance, didn't indicate a lack of faith.

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is untrue... Only in an existential view is sinning against man a sin against God. This happens to people who tend to over-spiritualize things. If I lie and say something mean about my brother; I sinned against my brother by instigating a problem. The lie itself is a sin against God, causing my brother trouble is a sin against my brother. There is a big difference and they both should be addressed.

Causing your brother trouble is a sin against God, because it is a violation of His Commandment which says to love your neighbor as yourself.

When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, He answered with two commandments from the Torah, "Love the Lord your God with all your soul, with all your heart, and with all your might" and "Love your neighbor as yourself".

It is impossible to do one without the other. It's why St. John says that if we say we love God but hate our brother we are liars. It's why St. James says that we are condemned by our tongue because with the tongue we bless God and with the same tongue curse other people made in God's Image.

In the ancient world the most profane act one could do is desecrate the image of a god and that god's temple.

Our God made a temple, it's the heavens and the earth; and He has an image, it's human beings. This is why, in Scripture, worship and justice are inseparably connected. When the Prophet Isaiah brought forth the word of judgment against Judah, where God says He finds their worship detestable, an abomination, calling the rulers of Judah and Jerusalem rulers of Sodom and Gomorrah, it's because of the injustice committed against people, especially the least of these.

All sin is against God, because it is always a violation of His commandment, and it is all essentially idolatrous.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You can sin against a human as well for example murder

Which is [also] a sin against God because 1) "Thou shalt not murder" and 2) that human is God's sacred Image.

-CryptoLutheran