well these are just my thoughts and i don't claim to be any type of theologian.
based on scripture alone,
is it possible that the 144,000 is a literal number of converted Jews that are a great witness to the
world and the multitudes that will follow? the Bible doesn't say that only 144,000 will be saved. it says basically that of the 12 tribes there are 144,000 saints and a multitude that follows that cannot be numbered.
i have not studied this intensely, but i don't see the great mystery in it.
God often uses specifics.
why 12 tribes?
because of Jacob's (Israel's) sons, right?
they were God's chosen people to be a witness to the world as the 12 diciples were chosen to be
a witness to the world. since our creator is a God of order, i have no doubt there is perfect reason for that number.
i'm not sure why people have a problem with the number
being literal Jews. i think the idea of converted, surrendered, Christ loving Jews is a wonderful thought that brings joy to my heart.
nothing would be nicer than God's original chosen people, who failed so miserably so many times in the past, to be in the forefront, saved, forgiven and finally
"right with God" and busy about the work of bringing lost souls to Christ.
there is a theory that i heard years ago which i have no reason to agree with, that the 144,000 were those who never saw death. those that would be alive to see Christ coming in Glory. i see no reason why both theories wouldn't work together.
i have not found scripture to support that theory, however, but like i said, i haven't studied this very much. just sharing some of my ideas.
it's an intriguing subject. thanks for opening it up RD.
Hi,
I'm not going to go into great details, but the above interpretation derives from the futurist interpretation of the final events.
1. When 70 weeks ended in 34AD, the nation of Israel was no longer the chosen people of God.
2. Jesus Himself said the kingdom of God shall be taken away from the jews and given to the gentile nation.
3. While the jews can accept Jesus as the messiah individually, there will be no cooperate conversions. Jesus said this Himself.
4. By the very biblical definition of 'Israel', it means Jesus and His followers. Therefore a Israelite is a believer regardless of his/her race. What saith Galatians 3?
Galatians 3
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And
if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
About His second coming, Jesus gave a preview on the Mount of Transfiguration: Moses who died then was translated into heaven and Elijah who was translated without seeing death.
These two typified the two groups of people will be received onto Jesus upon His second advent. This is confirmed by 1 Thessalonians 4: the 'dead in Christ' and the 'alive and remain'.
So the 144000 are those who are alive and remain. Revelations 7:1-3 tell us these are sealed by God just prior to the falling of the plagues. Rev7:14,16 further confirm that they are those who come out (endure) of the great tribulation.
Is there anyone else who will be saved at the second coming? No one unless you believe anyone can endure the tribulation without the seal of the living God, that is by their own power.
So why 12000 in each of the 12 tribes?
The 12 tribes are the children of Israel. Who is the true Isael? Jesus claimed to be: "I AM the true vine". So the 12 tribes are a type of the believers of Christ.
The jew tabernacle is a type of the Christian church. --- ST, Feb 14, 1900.
When we look at the 12 sons of Israel, each had distinct character defects/flaws: they were jealous, deceitful, committed murder, incest... Yet these sinful men have their names inscribed on the gates of the new Jerusalem.
How we ask? To the observant eyes, this sang a song of endurance and transformation. Doesn't this suggest to us the 12 tribes are all the believers who were born with fatal character flaws and yet endured and "washed their robes white with blood of the Lamb"?
Why 12000 each tribe? God can not allow sin and death to go on indefinitely. Satan in the Great Controversy with God charges God unfair and unfit to rule. So in reality it was God Himself who is on trial. God needs to prove to the universe that His rules of government (10 commandments) are reasonable and His judgment is fair.
So if the 12 tribes represent all the believers with different kinds of character defects (can you commit more heinous sins than murder and incest?), to end the great controversy, God only will need a sample size of each group to prove to the universe beyond a shadow of dout that anyone with any flaws can be saved, to end the death and suffering.
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed..." Rev 7:4. 12000 is the number God ordained. It is a number of men armed for war in the Old Testament. Solomon has 12000 horsemen.
What about the Great Multitude that no man can number?
If we read the context carefully, John heard the number, he didn't count.
And more importantly 'no man can number' does not mean you can not count because there are millions. The bible tells us what it means.
"MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN": numbered, weighed and found wanting.
We are all numbered either for redemption or condemnation. Therefore no man can number, only God numbers them for salvation.
If you carefully examine the characteristics and the privileges of the great multitude and 144000, they are identical. In fact the Spirit of Prophecy uses them interchangably.
I made a chart, the 144000 and the multitude are the same group.
------------------|-144000------|-multitude
Enter the temple -|-LS80 217.1
------------------|-GC 648.3 ---|-Rev 7:15
Before the throne |-GC 648.3
------------------|-Rev 14:3 ---|-Rev 7:9
------------------|-------------|-Rev 7:15
Come out of the great tribulation
------------------|-LS80 217.2
------------------|-GC 648.3----|-Rev 7:14
Jesus shall serve them in the banquet
------------------|-LS80 217.2--|-Rev 7:17
Have gotten the victory
------------------|-Rev 15:2
------------------|-GC 648.3----|-VSS 464.3
Standing on the sea of glass
------------------|-Rev 15:2
------------------|-GC 648.3----|-VSS 464.3
Having the harp---|-Rev 15:2
------------------|-GC 648.3----|-VSS 464.3
Sing the new song: Moses and the Lamb
------------------|-Rev 14:3
------------------|-Rev 15:3
------------------|-GC 648.3----|-VSS 464.3
Washed their ropes white with the blood of the Lamb
------------------|-GC 648.3----|-Rev 7:14
Wipe away tears from their eyes
------------------|-GC 648.3----|-Rev 7:17
Hunger no more, thirst no more
------------------|-GC 648.3----|-Rev 7:16
I think this covers alot of the issues and hope you find it useful.
David,
