The 144,000 and the Great Multitude

[reddogs]

Here is part of a interesting study by Ekkehardt Mueller of the SDA Biblical Research Institute.
"Introduction
The number 144,000 is one of several apparently cryptic numbers of Revelation that has caused much speculation..... When addressing this topic the following questions must be addressed: What kind of group are the 144,000? When do they appear? In which relation do they stand to the great multitude and the remnant? Is it a literal or figurative number?

I. The 144,000 as a Group
In Scripture the 144,000 appear under this designation only twice, namely in Rev 7 and in Rev 14. They are a specific group of human beings which maintain a special relationship with Jesus. In Rev 14:1 they are standing with the Lamb, Jesus, on Mt. Zion. Those, who have been condemned and have been persecuted in chap.13, now triumph with the Lamb.1[2] Instead of the mark of the beast on their foreheads or their hands these people bear the name of the Lamb and of the Father on their foreheads. They belong to God. He keeps them. They resemble Him. They sing a new song, a song of their personal experience, which they went through in the final battle between truth and error, God and Satan. Even though they were unable to buy or sell (13:17), Jesus has bought them. Salvation was expensive. It cost Jesus' life. The 144,000 have not defiled themselves with women. They are virgins. This means that they have not entered into a relationship with false religion or they have separated themselves from it.1[3] They follow Jesus every step of the way (cf. John 10:27-28) and are transformed through God's grace. As the first fruits they are a special group of children of God. According to the context of Rev 14 they have accepted the three angels' messages and may also have proclaimed them. In Rev 14:12 the saints are another name for the 144,000. These saints are characterized by endurance/patience, keeping of the commandments, and faith of Jesus. Thus, Rev 14 furnishes information on their character and behavior. Rev 7, however, contains little in this respect. We hear that the 144,000 are God's servants who are going to be sealed (Rev 7:3). The seal of God on their foreheads points to the fact that they are God's property and that they are at least protected from apostasy.1[4]

II. The Time of Their Appearance and Ministry
Although the 144,000 are already presented on Mt. Zion, their acceptance of and obvious involvement in the proclamation of the three angels' message, which takes
place immediately before Christ's Second Advent, make it clear that they are God's end time people. The same is true when we take a look at Rev 7. The sixth seal contains the heavenly signs of Jesus' Second Coming (6:12-14) and the Day of Lord, which is the Second Advent (6:14-16). The chapter ends with the question: "Who can stand before it?" (6:17). The previous verses (6:15-16) portray people who are not able to survive the day of the wrath of God and the lamb. On the other hand, Rev 7 points to people who are able to stand. Thus, Rev 7 responds to the question of 6:17 telling us that the 144,000 will be able to stand (7:1-8). The great multitude (7:9-17) is already depicted as serving God in heaven, in his heavenly sanctuary before his throne (7:15). The 144,000 are found in connection with the Second Advent prior to the time when the saints will be with God in heaven. Again as in Rev 14, the 144,000 of Rev 7 are God's end time people, apparently those who will be alive when Jesus returns to take his children home.

III. The 144,000 and the Great Multitude
Opinions vary on the relationship between the great multitude and the 144,000. The two groups could be distinct from each other; the 144,000 could be a part of the great multitude; or the 144,000 and the great multitude could be one group appearing under different names.1[5] The arguments for the latter option seem to be the most convincing. Obviously, the 144,000 and the great multitude, which will be found before the throne of God in his sanctuary, refer to the same group.1[6]
1. In Rev 5 God has a scroll in his hand which initially nobody is worthy to open. While John weeps, an elder tells him (5:5) that the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Jesus, has overcome and is able to open the scroll. John hears about the lion1[7] but when in 5:6 he takes a look, he does not see a lion but a lamb. Jesus the Lion is Jesus the Lamb.1[8] This phenomenon is found in the introductory scene of the seal vision. It is repeated in the same vision, in chapter 7. In 7:4 John hears the number of the sealed, but in 7:9 he sees that the 144,000 that were sealed form a great multitude. The 144,000 and the great multitude are the same group portrayed from different perspectives. The first designation is a symbolical term, the latter describes reality.
2. The answer to the question of who will be able to stand (6:17) is provided by the entire seventh chapter. Both depictions of a group, the 144,000 and the great multitude are those who are able to stand and point to the same group.
3. The 144,000 are introduced as an immediate answer to the question of 6:17. They are not further described, and the consequence of being able to stand on the great day of the wrath is not shown in Rev 7a, but only in Rev 7b. However, the great multitude receives a more detailed description and is depicted as standing before God. The same term "to stand" is used in 6:17 and 7:9.
4. The 144,000 as well as the great multitude have to go through difficult times. The 144,000 are sealed before the winds blow and have to stand the succeeding difficulties. The great multitude has come out of the great tribulation.
5. The 144,000 are God's end time church on earth. The great multitude is the end time church in heaven. The 144,000 are God's militant end time church. The great multitude is God's triumphant end time church.
6. The 144,000 are the fullness of God's end time church, twelve times twelve times thousand. This number reminds us of the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles of the Lamb (21:12,14). The number thousand may point to a military unit in the Israel of old (Num 31:4-6). Thus, the 144,000 represent the church militant of the end times.1[9] The great multitude is the consummated end time church. The information on the great multitude complements what was lacking with the 144,000. The sealing of the 144,000 would be incomplete if it would not lead to the final consummation as depicted by the experience of the great multitude.
7. The 144,000 are "servants of our God" (7:3). The great multitude "serves" God (7:15). Both Greek terms are used for the same group in 22:3.
It seems to be best to understand the 144,000 and the great multitude as the same group viewed from different perspectives. The great multitude does not comprise the redeemed ones of all ages. This is not the focus in Rev 7, nor is it denied that there will be saved ones from all ages. In fact this is implied in 14:4 by calling the 144,000 the first fruits. There is going to be a universal harvest of the redeemed ones from all ages past.....

...Conclusion
Scripture portrays the 144,000 as God's special end time church. According to Rev 7 they are able "to stand" when Jesus returns. They are called "first fruits" which indicates that a larger harvest will be gathered and that they are not the only ones to be saved. Since they have followed the Lamb wherever it went and since they have not joined false worship they will be with Jesus on Mt. Zion and before the throne of God in his heavenly sanctuary. We may not be able to solve all the questions related to the 144,000 and probably this is not so important either. More important is to live in such a way that we may be counted among them."
https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/144,000greatmultitude.pdf

 

[AlexDTX]

I see no need for the Scripture Gymnastics. The book plainly states who they are.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

They are Israeli descendants who come to Christ. Why make it something else?

 

[~Zao~]

Why is Dan missing? And Ephraim excluded but Manessa included?

 

[Mathetes66]

"AlexDTS: I see no need for the Scripture Gymnastics. The book plainly states who they are. They are Israeli descendants who come to Christ. Why make it something else?"

I fully agree. That is what the text actually says. Not one word in the OP study even mentions this.

"Why is Dan missing? And Ephraim is excluded but Manasseh included?

Why is the Tribe of Dan Missing in Revelation 7?

Why are Dan and Ephraim not listed in the 144,000 of Revelation 7:4-8?

 

[reddogs]

I see no need for the Scripture Gymnastics. The book plainly states who they are.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

They are Israeli descendants who come to Christ. Why make it something else?

There is a little issue that must be addressed, lets take a look below the surface. The 144,000 are living at the end of time when Jesus comes. Also, all of these saints the Bible tells us, will have the seal of God on their foreheads.

"After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:" Revelation 7:1-4

We see that the 144,000 are sealed just before the winds of strife hit the earth at the end of time. The four angels are holding back the four winds of the earth so they cannot harm the earth etc., until God's servants are sealed on their foreheads. So, it is clear that the 144,000 are God's people living at the time of the end in the time of trouble. It is also clear that the 144,000 will need this sealing in order to survive the trouble of the last days. That is why it is so urgent that they receive God's seal and its why the angels are holding off the trouble until they are protected.

But who are these people, lets go below just a surface reading to understand:

"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed." Revelation 7:4-8

So it might seem only the Israelites will be found in this group. But, there is a problem with this idea. Many of these tribes no longer exist. Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, and Simeon were lost when they were forced to leave their land.

"Now the king of Assyria went throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria and besieged it for three years. In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria took Samaria and carried Israel away to Assyria, and placed them in Halah and by the Habor, the River of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes." 2 Kings 17:5-6
"Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone." 2 Kings 17:18

In Revelation we see listed 12 tribes of Israel out of which they were to come and we realize that this has to be symbolic because even in John’s time most of those tribes no longer existed and certainly they do not today. Samaria, the northern 10 tribes, were moved to various places and they intermarried with other groups and thus they no longer exist. So, how could the 144,000 be numbered from tribes that no longer exist?

In addition we find that the probation of the Jews as a nation had been passed.

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." Matthew 21:43
The kingdom of God has been taken from them and given to others. Paul adds to this idea:

"For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,...And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you." Romans 11:13, 17-18

In God's kingdom, there is neither Jew nor Greek:

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:27-29

If we have been baptized into Christ, we will have put on Christ. Which makes us Abraham's seed. Thus, we are heirs according to the promise because there is neither Jew nor Greek. We have been grafted in. So yes, we can be included into the 144,000 even if we are not Jews because we have become Abraham's seed.

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." Romans 2:28-29

A true Jew is one who is inwardly a Jew where the Spirit of God is in the Heart. God seeks true conviction and true repentance from each of us.

"Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Luke 3:7-9

God can make children of Abraham out of stones. But He has chosen to make children of Abraham from those of us who have good fruit. But He throws into the fire those who have not repented of their sins.

"You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." Romans 11:19-23

Because of unbelief God's original people were broken off. However, anyone can be grafted in again if they get rid of their unbelief. So, it is easy to see that God keeps holding the door open for all of us to go in. As long as there is time to repent and get the gift of eternal life, He will continually give us a choice to again be connected with Him.

"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:6-7

Its clear that God wants His people to fully believe and to act out their faith in repentance. He wants true repentance from each of us. These will be the living saints at the end who will be sealed and Christ comes to redeem them at the Second Coming.

 

[AlexDTX]

Many of these tribes no longer exist. Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, and Simeon were lost when they were forced to leave their land.

Not according to the Jews. The 12 tribes exist, even tho they are scattered around the world. We only use the term "Jews" ie Judah because they were in Israel longest.

 

[reddogs]

Not according to the Jews. The 12 tribes exist, even tho they are scattered around the world. We only use the term "Jews" ie Judah because they were in Israel longest.

Its clear, read your Bible....

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

All real Christians will be heirs of the heavenly kingdom, heirs of the promise given to Abraham.

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." Hebrews 11:8-10

Even Abraham himself "waited for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God." Heb. 11:10. This makes it clear the real promise was of the heavenly kingdom.

 

[AlexDTX]

Its clear, read your Bible....

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

All real Christians will be heirs of the heavenly kingdom, heirs of the promise given to Abraham.

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." Hebrews 11:8-10

Even Abraham himself "waited for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God." Heb. 11:10. This makes it clear the real promise was of the heavenly kingdom.

I agree that these 144,000 will be Christians - they will be Israeli Christians. Doctrines are "clear" when you want them to be so.

 

[reddogs]

I agree that these 144,000 will be Christians - they will be Israeli Christians. Doctrines are "clear" when you want them to be so.

No, they are clear when scriptures outlines them...
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed,"who is Christ.
Romans 9:6-8
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Romans 4:13
For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Genesis 26:3-5
Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."
Genesis 12:1-3
Now the LORD had said to Abram:
"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Genesis 17:4-11
'As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." And God said to Abraham: 'As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Genesis 28:13-14
And behold, the LORD stood above it and said: "I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Genesis 22:16-18
and said: "By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

John 8:37-44
"I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father." They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."

 

[reddogs]

Here is Doug Batchelor on the 144,000:

"Revelation 7:1-4 states: "After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Then the Scripture lists 12,000 from each of the following 12 tribes: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

Now the main question is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes. Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, but because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph.

"Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons. So its not the literal 12 tribes, but the clue to it being a spiritual meaning to the 144,000 was the way in which the tribes are listed in Revelation 7:5-8. This is the only time in Scripture that the names of the tribes appear in this order. Reuben, the firstborn of Jacob, is listed as second while Judah, fourth in birth order, is listed as first. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Why?

Because "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder [viper] in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" (Genesis 49:17), and "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).

So to start with its not the 12 tribes you normally see, so it would lead to more symbolic than literal.

Well lets go back and see what does the Bible tell us about the 144,000...

Rev. 7:3-4

... "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed."

So shortly before God's wrath is released, 12,000 people from the 'twelve tribes of Israel' are chosen. But the "Israel" of God today is not a biological Israel but spiritual. According to the New Covenant, the Israel of God consists of people who love Him with all their heart, mind, soul, and their neighbor as themselves. The Bible indicates that God will select these 144, 000 and it also tells us the characteristics of those who truly follow God.

Jesus said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40)

And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:29)

So the 12 names of these tribes as mentioned in Revelation 7 are symbolic names of the true Israel of God and so the 144,000 are Abraham's heirs which successfully pass the 'times such as never was' and will receive the final seal and become the 144,000 who will be taken up at the Second Coming without seeing death.

 

[Dave-W]

Red - can you PROVE the 144k in Rev 7 and the 144k in Rev 14 are the SAME group of people?

 

[reddogs]

Red - can you PROVE the 144k in Rev 7 and the 144k in Rev 14 are the SAME group of people?

Why not ask me to prove the Flood or Creation... The Bible states what God has inspired, and we must discern, line by line, precept by precept, and ask the Holy Spirit to guide us.

 

[Dave-W]

We can “prove” Creation and The Flood if we accept the authority and authenticity of Scripture. I believe we both do that.

When I read Rev, and see the 2 passages with the 144k, (First time reading it was circa 1963 or 4) I have always had the impression they were 2 different groups.

What we perceive as guidance from the Ruach, the Holy Spirit, is always subservient to the written text. He will NEVER guide us contrary to God’s written Word.

 

[Gary K]

We can “prove” Creation and The Flood if we accept the authority and authenticity of Scripture. I believe we both do that.

When I read Rev, and see the 2 passages with the 144k, (First time reading it was circa 1963 or 4) I have always had the impression they were 2 different groups.

What we perceive as guidance from the Ruach, the Holy Spirit, is always subservient to the written text. He will NEVER guide us contrary to God’s written Word.

Just out of curiosity, Dave, why do you see two groups? Why would you think the Bible would, for lack of a better term, create a group of a very specific number that identifies a specific group of people, and then turn around and create a second group of people with the same specific number and thus confuse the identities of the groups? Where else in the Bible do you find an example of God doing that type of thing? I can't think of any example of God acting to confuse identities between peoples in the rest of the Bible.

 

[Dave-W]

Just out of curiosity, Dave, why do you see two groups?

Because the text never says they are the same.

I can't think of any example of God acting to confuse identities between peoples in the rest of the Bible.

There are plenty of people in the NT that the church has confused.

Mary Magdalene and the woman in John 8. The various men named James. (Jacob actually)

Unless there is some kind of corroborating scripture saying they are the same, it is safest to assume they are NOT.

 

[Gary K]

Because the text never says they are the same.

There are plenty of people in the NT that the church has confused.

Mary Magdalene and the woman in John 8. The various men named James. (Jacob actually)

Unless there is some kind of corroborating scripture saying they are the same, it is safest to assume they are NOT.

You answered "a" question, just not the question I asked you.

 

[reddogs]

Because the text never says they are the same.

There are plenty of people in the NT that the church has confused.

Mary Magdalene and the woman in John 8. The various men named James. (Jacob actually)

Unless there is some kind of corroborating scripture saying they are the same, it is safest to assume they are NOT.

We need to ask God to unveil His truth, and not try to be a 'doubting Thomas' or bring shade on what is there. If the Bible had to explain everything to everyones satisfaction, how big would it have to be. I think beyond the books on the fall of the Roman Empire or more....

 

[Gary O']

So......is the 144.000 a literal number?

If so, and they are the saints that do not see death, then (if my math is correct) they'll be around one in around 55,000 if the earth's population stays at appox 8 billion

 

[Gary K]

So......is the 144.000 a literal number?

If so, and they are the saints that do not see death, then (if my math is correct) they'll be around one in around 55,000 if the earth's population stays at appox 8 billion

Ellen White tells us this in Manuscript 9, 1907.

Persons, in writing or speaking to me, often ask me questions that I have not liberty to answer. One says, “I want you to tell me, Sister White, Who are the one hundred and forty-four thousand, that are spoken of in Revelation?” I answer, “You have the Word; have you found out? If the Lord wanted you to know, He would have put it in His Word, and you would not need to ask me. When we get to heaven, then we shall learn exactly who compose the hundred and forty-four thousand. Let us take that which the Lord has given us; it is sufficient to tax our mind to its utmost capacity, and if we will study the Scriptures prayerfully, the Holy Spirit will make the correct application to our hearts.”

BTW, Good to see you again. Hope you're doing better. I have put you on my prayer list asking God to improve our vision so that we'll see more of you.