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That Final Moment

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Martin Luther

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and so it must happen to all of us....death. The end of our role, in the great cosmic show....but what happens then?

1. Immediately enter paradise.
2. Soul sleep until judgement.
3. paradise before the actaul arrival of the Kingdom of Heaven.
4. Other.

Love to hear your thoughts, on this ...and maybe its trite..since we will all find out anyway, one way or another.
 

Justme

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Hi Martin,

and so it must happen to all of us....death. The end of our role, in the great cosmic show....but what happens then?
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands

It must occur instantly because:

John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Justme
 
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night2day

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Martin Luther said:
and so it must happen to all of us....death. The end of our role, in the great cosmic show....but what happens then?

1. Immediately enter paradise.
2. Soul sleep until judgement.
3. paradise before the actaul arrival of the Kingdom of Heaven.
4. Other.

Love to hear your thoughts, on this ...and maybe its trite..since we will all find out anyway, one way or another.

There are three types of deaths the Bible speaks of actually. To paraphrase a bit:

1. Spiritual - A state in which we are all within since the moment of conception. Sin is not just what we do, it is our state ever since the Fall into Sin within Genesis.

It is only by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ alone as one's Lord and Savior from sin, death, and Hell we are made spiritually alive.

2. Physical - Separation of soul from the body. End result of the curse of sin over all creation we all face. Soul immediately goes to Heaven or Hell depending on whether or not they placed their faith in Christ.

3. Eternal - Separation of the body and soul into Hell. Occurs on day of judgment. A confirmation of the judgment made upon physical death.
 
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johnd

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2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

No soul sleep.

No holding pattern (pergatory or "paradise" * ).

* paradise, or accurately: Abraham's bosom, was a place in sheol where the righteous dead waited the sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus after which he led them from there (Eph 4:8-10).

it never was accurately described as paradise. Jesus was referring to heaven in Luke 23:43 meaning Ephesians 4:8-10 happened within the space of three hours as he Jesus died at 3 PM and that day ended at 6 PM, and Ephesians 4:8-10 took place spiritually. Keep in mind John 20:17 was referring to his resurrected form...

Regards,
 
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ZealouS

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Daniel 12:2http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/...age=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Acts 13:36

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/...age=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on"For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed.

Acts 7:60

Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

John 11
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

1 Corinthians 15
18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

1 Corinthians 15
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


1 Thessalonians 4
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.

Your soul rests until Judgment. I think it is undeniable with how many scriptures speak of it in the NT. Even Christ fell asleep for 3 days. Your spirit rests, your body decays and then you are brought forth again on Judgment day. Not everyone will sleep but most of the worlds population still is asleep.
 
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Justme

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Hi ZealouS,
Not everyone will sleep but most of the worlds population still is asleep.
So where is Martha? Jesus specifically told her she would never die. She died physically, there is no doubt of that so, what does that leave?

1 Cor 15
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Is she in this paradise? Heaven? Where would you feel she went to? And why would 2 Cor 5:1 not apply to Martha? Her earthly tent was destroyed, why would she not have this eternal house in heaven as the bible says? Why would the bible not apply to Martha?

Justme
 
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Pilgrim Simon

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after death, a person either goes to a place where there is conscious awareness, and separation of saved and unsaved persons, with unsaved persons already being in torment prior to judgement, (Luke 16 v 24,26) or we all enter into a state of no life and no awareness until our being made alive again for judgement. A sort of soul sleep. Our vital principle of life has ceased. A view similar to one held by Martin Luther. Soul sleep, or psychopannychy, has been sporadically held by the church. Some Anabaptists endorsed it. It was included in the Forty Two Articles of Edward VI, which preceded the Thirty Nine Articles.



This case rests on three principles:-



1) If the soul is an entity, and human existence demands the unity of body and soul, then if the body ceases to function, so must the soul.



2) The use of the word 'sleep' in Scripture for death is alleged to point to the cessation of consciousness.



3) A state of consciousness between death and resurrection characterised by bliss or woe unwarrantably anticipates the judgement of the last day, when the basis for our final state is provided.



This interpretation seems to fit the I Samuel passage well. It seems to be the most consistent with this passage. Man is a living soul, a living breathing being, possessing some incorporeal element to his nature, but which is so linked to his body that at death it's consciousness ends, though it appears some people may be able to bring it up and communicate with it. Otherwise, this lack of consciousness is so complete, that to each person, the interval from death to resurrection seems instantaneous, even though in reality it may be a long age.



Certainly, the idea of death being described as sleep is a common one in Scripture. It is recorded that Solomon 'slept with his fathers' (I Kings 11 v 43), and that Christians who have died have fallen asleep. Surely though, this is to lay emphasis on the fact that death is not the end. That there will be an awakening on the resurrection morning, when the spiritual body is received.



Abraham, at his death was 'gathered unto his people', (Genesis 25 v 8). So too Isaac, (Genesis 35 v 29) so too Jacob, (Genesis 49 v 29, 33.) This is an unusual phrase. It is used also in II Kings 22 v 20. 'I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace.'. The phrase 'gathered to thy grave' helps to indicate it's meaning. Wilson [12] argues that some place or situation to which things or persons are taken or gathered. It is probable that this means nothing more than simply dying and being buried; entering into a similar state to those who have died before, a non conscious, intermediate state before the resurrection. But the idea of soul sleep is only really supportable from the passage in I Samuel alone, and that makes the doctrine rather weak, because we can infer alternatives from the information given, such as the work of unclean spirits, though it is not expressly stated.



This leaves us with the interpretation of the passages in Revelation. As in the earlier passage on the abyss, Hendriksen is at pains to point out that all these visions are symbolic. Thus, though souls are seen crying out to God to avenge their deaths, (Revelation 6 v 9) this is seen as symbolic. It is similar to the phrase 'the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground'. (Genesis 4 v 10) Blood has no voice, neither does it cry. The soul is in the blood (Leviticus 4 v 7). Hendriksen suggests that John sees the blood of the slaughtered saints under the altar, crying out to be avenged. [11]. So too in Revelation 20 v 4, Hendriksen emphasises the symbolism of these visions. [13] Certainly, when Paul talks about death and the resurrection in I Corinthians 15, he does not use the idea of wandering or waiting spirits. Rather he refers to a body as a seed, sown in the ground in corruption, but raised incorruptible at the resurrection.



There does appear to be one exception, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. But He is unique as the God-man. Jesus Christ was fully God and fully man, the Word became flesh. He had to be fully God to accomplish what He did. He also had to be fully man to take the sinner's place. Two natures in one Person. I want to suggest that once the Word became flesh, there was formed an indissoluble link between God and man. Indissoluble in the sense that such a link has to be maintained to accomplish the salvation of the elect. God is not confined by or constrained by this link. He can sever this link at any time, but in doing so; the work of salvation will collapse, because He is no longer the God-man, the Mediator and Advocate.



This leads us to the area of Christ's death, and an analysis of what happened during those three days and nights. Where was Christ for three days and nights? He was in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12 v 40). At least His body was. But God is spirit, and immortal. He cannot die. If His spirit had 'died' then the whole creation would have collapsed, because all things are sustained by and through Him. (Colossians 1 v 17). So where was Christ's Spirit? Where was the incorporeal part of the God-man? Did Christ return to the right hand side of the Father, and wait for resurrection? No. I suggest that He remained indissolubly linked to a now dead body, for to separate from it was to cease to be the Word made flesh. The conscious Divine Spirit of Christ was involved in His own resurrection. Not only did God the Father raise up Jesus Christ, which is the usual way in which Scripture describes Christ's resurrection, (Acts 2 v 32, Col 2 v 12, Ephesians 1 v 20) but Jesus was active in His own resurrection, having privilege, authority and right from the Father to lay down His life AND TAKE IT UP AGAIN. (John 10 v 18). He declared that HE would rebuild His own body in three days. (Matthew 26 v 61). So, the body was dead, but the Spirit of Jesus was alive and active in His own physical resurrection. He was not abandoned to the intermediate state of Hades, and His flesh did not see thorough corruption, that is, it did not physically decompose. (Acts 2 v 31).



In addition to this, Jesus was undergoing birth pangs and travail pains of death. (Acts 2 v 24). This does not refer to the crucifixion or act of dying, but the condition or Intermediate state of death itself, to which He was not abandoned. This state of Indissoluble connection between the Divine and human natures, where the human body was dead, but Christ's Spirit still conscious was a condition of pain, like birth pangs, from which He was loosed, unbound or released from at the resurrection, when the body became alive again. This experience is unique to Christ, by reason of His unique nature as the God-man, and forms part of the Atonement.

 
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ZealouS

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So where is Martha? Jesus specifically told her she would never die. She died physically, there is no doubt of that so, what does that leave?

1 Cor 15
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Is she in this paradise? Heaven? Where would you feel she went to? And why would 2 Cor 5:1 not apply to Martha? Her earthly tent was destroyed, why would she not have this eternal house in heaven as the bible says? Why would the bible not apply to Martha?

Justme
I would like you to show me where Martha was promised that she would never die. Also just because someone is promised to live forever it does not mean that they will not taste death on this earth. Reference is to spiritual death, the 2nd death. Also there are some who will not sleep but will be changed, as one of my scriptures point out. The majority of people will sleep before being resurrected though.

Your brother in Christ,
Jedidiah
 
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Justme

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Hi ZealouS,

I would like you to show me where Martha was promised that she would never die.

John 11
26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,

Martha goes on to state that she meets the criteria of believing in Him as well.

This covers both 'livings', the earthly, natural and the spiritual heavenly.These are the only two choices available to the human race as is spelled out here:
1 cor 15
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

So Martha did die physically, but she had to be made alive spiritual or else Jesus could not have told her she would never die. Martha lives somewhere, why would 2 Cor 5:1 not apply to Martha?

Also just because someone is promised to live forever it does not mean that they will not taste death on this earth.
That is how I would interpret that as well.
Reference is to spiritual death, the 2nd death.
There is a second death but that is this one:

Rev 20
The lake of fire is the second death.

I doubt there is an argument for Martha to be thrown in the lake of fire. The second death is when a person physical dies and THEN also fails the judgment and suffers yet another death, that of being separated from God or the judgment to condemnation.

Also there are some who will not sleep but will be changed, as one of my scriptures point out.
Yes, that is 1 Cor 15:51. At the parousia, the coming of the son of man on the clouds, at the last trumpet, mankind no longer has to 'sleep' does that mean they no longer physically die. Read Rev 14:13 to end of chapter.


Justme




Justme
 
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ZealouS

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So Martha did die physically, but she had to be made alive spiritual or else Jesus could not have told her she would never die. Martha lives somewhere, why would 2 Cor 5:1 not apply to Martha?
Simple, she is not going to experience the second death. Your spirit is what gives you life and is always alive. When you enter into sleep your spirit is resting until you are called forth again at the resurrection. Then your body is remade and the spirit is joined to it, just as it happens at birth.
 
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Justme

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Hi ZealouS,

Simple, she is not going to experience the second death.
Actually I think this is pretty tricky. Martha was a close personal friend of Jesus Christ. Why would there be any lake of fire for Martha? When Jesus spoke to her He would know that there was no second death for Martha.

Your spirit is what gives you life and is always alive.
The spirit can be dead as it explains here:
Luke 12
4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

There is that second death again. The spirit may be alive in this verse, but this is not what the bible refers to as 'life.' When Jesus talked to Martha He specifically said "tho you die, you live,"........so she died , how did she 'live.' Why does 2 Cor 5:1 not apply to Martha? Her earthly tent(body) was destroyed, why would she not go to this heavenly house that is permanently in heaven.

When you enter into sleep your spirit is resting until you are called forth again at the resurrection.
Here you mean as is spoken of in Daniel 12:1-3, 1 Thess 4:13-17, 1 cor 15:41? They speak of 'sleep'. Those people are also physically dead and as I see it they will 'come alive' at the resurrection.

Then your body is remade and the spirit is joined to it, just as it happens at birth.
At the resurrection the people who 'sleep' receive a non-perishable, immortal, spiritual body as it says in 1 Cor 15: Can you show me a verse which indicates the old body is remade? The spiritual body seems to somehow just be part of it, there is no rebuilding necessary.

1 Cor 15
40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Comments?

Justme
 
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